Women & TTB

[Seth Ananda]

Something to think about...you know the racial and gender group most badmouthed at this forum? White males. I won't report your post, Seth...but I will next time.

Thats ridiculous and disingenuous.

 

Its ridiculous because white males on this forum have not been called a different species, been told that they should just 'put out', that they are naturally submissive, cant evolve higher, or any other dodgy shit that gets thrown around.

 

Its disingenuous because its the fall back argument of those with the privilege and power. Its not real, a ruse to obfuscate the issue. So basically a real issue gets talked about by genuinely marginalised people, which will make a bigot uncomfortable, causing them to respond with "Waaa, what about reverse racism, waaa, what about me?"

 

It takes up space, gets everyone worked up, and sabotages the chance for any real change.

 

 

Now I am not saying that some imbalances or injustices don't occasionally occur as power starts getting redistributed, but this topic is not about that. This Topic is how do we make a better forum for women, and the only way to do that is with new rules with strong penalties, immediately, for expressed sexism, misogyny, and hopefully also including racism and homophobia.

[Seth Ananda]

I take this as you calling me a bigot (since I was the one who said this is all getting way too PC), and am reporting your post for slander/insult/harassment.

 

To be clear...the forum rules already prevent actual bigotry. It's all good in the hood, man.

 

Well, I can't be sure, but If a person lives in a bigoted society, yet continues to say there is nothing wrong with it, it seems they are expressing a certain kind of passive bigotry...? What do you think?

 

And lets not forget the anti homosexual sentiment you have expressed in the past?

You say its in the past... Should I think otherwise? You tell me

[Seth Ananda]

Is it ok to call a shoe a shoe?

 

If someone reports someone for actual real bigotry, can that person counter report them for slander? lol

[Seth Ananda]

What do we call the people who stood against racial reform, who marched against Malcolm X?

 

Certainly not progressive...

[Seth Ananda]

My creative review of this thread so far.

 

(Intro) "How do we make TTB's better and more welcoming for women?"

 

(Me) "better rules outlawing misogyny & stereotyping!" {Strangely the women here seem to like this post}

 

(Men) "Hell no, everything is fine here, go back to sleep everyone"

 

(Men) "actually white men have it worse here"

 

(Men) "lets sidetrack/off topic this thread by making it about men, and reporting you for wanting to make TTB's better for women"

 

 

 

Typical day at the bums.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Seth Ananda

[liminal_luke]

Something to think about...you know the racial and gender group most badmouthed at this forum? White males. I won't report your post, Seth...but I will next time.

 

Edited August 27, 2014 by liminal_luke

[RiverSnake]

'Privilege' is believing something is not a problem, because its not a problem for you personally.

You definitely seem to have strong feelings about this topic Seth. It's becoming more apparent to me that everyone definitely has a different experience of TTB.

 

The thread you posted on "Cult of Racism".....I never even bothered looking at it because from the title it seemed like a waste of time and a pit for trolls .....I guess our experiences can be quite subjective depending on what threads we visit.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited August 27, 2014 by OldChi

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Unfortunately I can't embed the following video, but it hilariously illustrates this situation

 

http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6987157/kinda-racist-try-diet-racism#!bKV2IR

[Harmonious Emptiness]

You definitely seem to have strong feelings about this topic Seth. It's becoming more apparent to me that everyone definitely has a different experience of TTB.

 

The thread you posted on "Cult of Racism".....I never even bothered looking at it because from the title it seemed like a waste of time and a pit for trolls .....I guess our experiences can be quite subjective depending on what threads we get involved in.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

 

See, this is the thing - you knew that it would be - because you know that there's a problem here, no?

[BaguaKicksAss]

Will try again after sleep is acquired...

Edited August 27, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[RiverSnake]

 

See, this is the thing - you knew that it would be - because you know that there's a problem here, no?

There is no problem for me personally because I never opened the thread to begin with....thus I don't really experience all the negativities or "problems" that people get bent out of shape about. Therefore the subjectivity of experience on the forum...for me TTB is fine and dandy....didn't give it a 2nd thought.

 

Perhaps I am guilty of becoming immune to the toxicity of Internet feuds and thus don't really resonate with the strife that so many people seem to have experienced on TTB....for sure I rumbled around in the strife in my earlier years on the net.....but eventually just got over it and developed thicker skin and learned to behave in a more cunning way. Rather than recklessly throwing all of my emotion and force at a problem and creating flame wars.

 

Seth, you talked about other forums and them having superior models for behavior that result in a better environment for all. Perhaps you could post some links.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited August 27, 2014 by OldChi

[Harmonious Emptiness]

.....but eventually just got over it and developed thicker skin and learned to behave in a more cunning way. Rather than recklessly throwing all of my emotion and force at a problem and creating flame wars.

 

 

 

Okay but why wait for everyone to do that? If we want a fertile and fruitful forum experience, why suggest that nothing be done about those problems? If nothing is done about them, they will just drive away people who actually are interested in a respectful spiritual discussion, and the only way that bigoted opinions will be neutralized is by people perpetually fighting against them.

 

I fully appreciate staying out of the flame wars, but why just let everything burn to the ground because "we can handle it?"

[Bearded Dragon]

I never bothered with those threads because I knew straight away they were a waste of time. Like a lot of threads.

 

Those who don't have such extensive experience in regards to the nature of the internet may not be so fortunate. Even worse someone might think that there was such a thing as WINNING an argument on the internet and get sucked into the thick of it.

 

People are at varying levels of being able to handle stuff. The natural response of a "normal" person may be different to someone using the forum as a melting pot for refinement of the ego, for example.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Bearded Dragon

[C T]

Okay but why wait for everyone to do that? If we want a fertile and fruitful forum experience, why suggest that nothing be done about those problems? If nothing is done about them, they will just drive away people who actually are interested in a respectful spiritual discussion, and the only way that bigoted opinions will be neutralized is by people perpetually fighting against them.

 

I fully appreciate staying out of the flame wars, but why just let everything burn to the ground because "we can handle it?"

'Fighting' & 'against' are basically anti-ethical to spiritual cultivation.

[3bob]

'Fighting' & 'against' are basically anti-ethical to spiritual cultivation.

 

CT. This sounds to simplistic because of all the possible aspects and frameworks. Gandhi had a lot to say about fighting and fought a great deal himself, the difference was how he fought... I don't have any quotes on hand right now but maybe later. Anyhow I'd say it takes a great deal of spiritual cultivation to fight correctly as so many masters and saints have.

[zanshin]

I think we all should try to work together no matter what gender, race or other demographic, but there is value in trying to understand differences and other point of view. Certainly this could be better tempered at times and some of the cheap shots eliminated. I felt uncomfortable not being in "gender solidarity" with the 2 banned and also with the perception that women are fragile and need to be sheltered, while I partly respect the intention and feel these guys do mean well. Never mind the PC stuff though, I do have another idea that pertains to the thread topic.

 

The demographic almost totally missing on the forum is young, inexperienced females. It seems like the women who do stick around tend to either be older and/or already have some experience and security in their practice. Yet, young women do seem to have an interest in spirituality. We have lots of young guys who jump right in stay active in the forum. I think we have many knowledgeable (or think they are) practitioners with strong opinions, it comes off as authoritarian and there's a male tendency to puff up the chest and really show off how smart you are when directed to a young woman. Maybe this is the "disembodied eggheads." It's annoying on forums, when you're trying to get your car fixed, at the gym, and most unfortunately when you're trying to get an education and do your job. Trying to slog through the know-it-all and best crap on a forum is a pretty easy choice for a disposable battle to let drop. My general suggestion is to respect that women, like all demographics, are diverse group who don't all want the same thing, ask questions, consider the other person's point of view and opinion, turn off the steamroller, including those who want to rescue women with the steamroller- take a collaborative approach.

[Green Tiger]

Feedback ranged from far too much sexism, disembodied eggheadism, racism, or its a sheltered workshop for sexually maladjusted little boys..

 

Ohhh . . . the disembodied eggheadism. Can we get a thread about how to curb that? That's the one that grinds my gears.

 

Don't fear the man who had written posts about a thousand kicks, fear the man who reads those posts while practicing his horse stance. ;-)

 

Maybe everyone should be allowed 1000 posts and no more. As soon as you reach 1000, you're suspended from posting for a year, then the count resets. Maybe that would make people be more selective about what they say.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

CT. This sounds to simplistic because of all the possible aspects and frameworks. Gandhi had a lot to say about fighting and fought a great deal himself, the difference was how he fought... I don't have any quotes on hand right now but maybe later. Anyhow I'd say it takes a great deal of spiritual cultivation to fight correctly as so many masters and saints have.

 

Yes, and not to mention that virtually every post on the forum is for one thing and against another - one thought to be true and the other(s) thought to be false. Fighting to ensure that falsehood and ignorance do not dominate is also in large part what Buddha did, why the Tao Te Ching was written, and why Jesus was crucified.

[Songtsan]

I think that if we all remember our original face, that this thread will resolve nicely....

[C T]

CT. This sounds to simplistic because of all the possible aspects and frameworks. Gandhi had a lot to say about fighting and fought a great deal himself, the difference was how he fought... I don't have any quotes on hand right now but maybe later. Anyhow I'd say it takes a great deal of spiritual cultivation to fight correctly as so many masters and saints have.

Sure, if you want to flow with that, by all means, sir.

 

I was more thinking Bruce Lee... be like water, not contending, that kind of shit.

 

I fight too, if i have no other choice. Or in the MA centre. But this is not a ring, nor a brawlroom situation every day.

 

Apologies for being overly simplistic. Trying to cultivate frugality in thoughts, words & deeds lately.

[C T]

Yes, and not to mention that virtually every post on the forum is for one thing and against another - one thought to be true and the other(s) thought to be false. Fighting to ensure that falsehood and ignorance do not dominate is also in large part what Buddha did, why the Tao Te Ching was written, and why Jesus was crucified.

Buddha fought no one. He lived and loved with complete equanimity.

 

What He taught was that we should each explore our truths & falsehoods personally, deeply, to see if they are actually true/false all the time, or do they change occasionally, and what happens when one goes beyond the brittleness of these dichotomous choices that lay in our minds all the time. He threw the ball back at everyone as if saying, be responsible for your own salvation.

[manitou]

Maybe it's a yang energy vs. yin energy sort of thing. One of the things I'm working on within myself is to decrease my sensitivity to comments made sometimes on this forum. I can use my own sensitivity (or hurt feelings) as a gauge to see my own progress. I've found that not getting engaged in argument involves bypassing my own ego, sometimes - which is always good practice. Let the other person have the point, that's all. We're really not contending here, we're all trying to grow toward the light.

 

I think we also need to keep in mind that we don't know each other's ages. There are young ones here who are like young bucks, always looking for a fight. What's the purpose of engaging them? It only ends in bad feelings. Better to walk away.

 

Yang cannot do without yin - and the more enlightened male members here are very respectful of women. But sometimes I have to remind myself that there are many young male Buddhist types who come from a tradition of arguing - that's how they learn. I think to make rules regarding what should be said and not said here only serves to deepen the divide. Better to let it out and let karma deal with it. A good parallel to this is the repressed racism within this country - there are certain words in our culture that are absolutely taboo - and yet sometimes I think this is to further deepen the divide as well - the racism remains lurking within one's heart and is not allowed to be expressed. Sometimes things just have to explode to get fixed.

 

When rules are necessary, the Dao is lost.

[Ya Mu]

There is no way any of you know if a point of view is being argued by a woman or man unless you have personally met the person. I COULD be a 90 year old grandmother that has been messing with your heads for years.

 

Best to just be respectful to ALL ALL ALL. That way, nothing is left undone - all is covered.

 

I will say those who think women are any lessor in the arts than men need to come to one of my workshops and see for yourself women of power that can stand toe to toe with any man with qi projection. A famous USA qigong author and teacher made the mistake of being condescending concerning qi projection to one of my female students. It was about the funniest thing that I ever saw when she blasted him with qi. The look on his face - absolutely priceless!

[BaguaKicksAss]

The whole grow a thicker skin might sound like good advice, but it doesn't help any in this case, imo. The reason for this is that it doesn't help others to feel welcome. If something which is posted regularly which isn't respectful to others were only about me, I would likely just ignore it, get over it, or leave the forums (if it ever bothered me that much). That however doesn't help society, the internet, or these forums to grow at all.

 

Respecting others is actually quite a new thing. If you think about it, bullying (for example), has only been not OK in the past few years. Before it was thought of as bad, but everyone just sort of ignored it. Now everyone talks about it and watches out for it. This is the same for respect in general. The internet is growing up a bit I think .

 

So I could just put the folks who make snide remarks about women on ignore (like I do in person), or I could say something to help make this a more positive and growth related enviroment for everyone. Also when people tell me "oh but you are different than other women". Well that is a nice of them to think and all (if they think others are not awesome), but that doesn't help others to be respected and honoured as every person should be.

 

Also I would like to encourage the possibility of people looking at women differently. Past their own personal previous experiences and blockages. I think perhaps there is a lot more to us than some folks are perceiving .

[Chang]

May I take this opportunity to thank the ladies for posting their views on this thread. It is very enlightening for me as a male to hear what you have to say and you may rest assured that it has been noted.