Women & TTB

[Aetherous]

 

Immature creatures of indefinite gender (those who substitute their stereotypical mental constructs to project onto both women and men, and are consequently unable to have any meaningful relationships with any women or men because real people don't exist in their world, only stereotypes projected onto women and men which blot the real person out of existence) -- these are not ready for sexual secrets of taoism, and would fuck them up if they tried to apply them, just as they fuck up all their gender-specific cultivation because they don't even belong to their real gender physiologically, much less psychologically, due to the stereotype in their head blotting it out of existence. They are perhaps members of their sex anatomically, but that's not enough for undertaking taoist sexual cultivation. Applies to both sexes -- we don't only have too few women here, we have a drastic shortage of men. Those of the anatomically correct ones who however are not developed as men, don't function as men physiologically, psychologically, emotionally or socially, don't count.

The two bolded points seem to be conflicting...but I get your point anyway.

[Songtsan]

I just bought two books written by a Wudangshan taoist nun on the secret practices of female and dual sexual cultivation, translated into Russian, not available in English. I'll be damned if I share any of that at the general forum. The women-only section is where I might.

 

Immature creatures of indefinite gender (those who substitute their stereotypical mental constructs to project onto both women and men, and are consequently unable to have any meaningful relationships with any women or men because real people don't exist in their world, only stereotypes projected onto women and men which blot the real person out of existence) -- these are not ready for sexual secrets of taoism, and would fuck them up if they tried to apply them, just as they fuck up all their gender-specific cultivation because they don't even belong to their real gender physiologically, much less psychologically, due to the stereotype in their head blotting it out of existence. They are perhaps members of their sex anatomically, but that's not enough for undertaking taoist sexual cultivation. Applies to both sexes -- we don't only have too few women here, we have a drastic shortage of men. Those of the anatomically correct ones who however are not developed as men, don't function as men physiologically, psychologically, emotionally or socially, don't count.

 

You have heard my heart issues here. I feel stuck in between worlds, and wondering where I fit, if I have injured myself spiritually by failing to recognize the deep division in myself. This is more common among men than women, as evidenced by the number of sex change operations going from male to female. It has dogged me my whole life. I have always been incapable of maintaining adequate relationships with men or women. I have often wondered whether a period of celibacy is warranted. This makes me think yes. I won't go into extreme detail here, as this is fodder for a more personal thread.

 

EDIT:

 

Although still i do tend to think that there probably is a number of individuals out there who would fit my strange polarity or lack thereof, in some way which is largely unwritten about...the odds feel in favor. I wouldn't waste my time looking however, as that is like searching for a winning lottery ticket. I am basically giving up on dual cultivation desires for an indefinite period of time.

 

However, they say in certain Vajrayana practices that dakinis and dakas of the non corporeal type are superior to having real life partners...this is something I still have access to.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Songtsan

[Songtsan]

From my perspective, this thread has been generally very disappointing... but I can blame it all on Brian for starting it

 

I thought to go back through and read only the male posts; and then again to read only the female posts... but I felt that I would end up with reading two completely different posting ideas in the end.

 

I don't have the time to clean it up right now and pit stuff, but it deserves far better than it has received but I don't this really surprises some.

 

I am thinking of how there can be a Women's Cultivation section and am asking a few for comments now.

 

 

Let's see if we can keep this on topic or let it die a natural death

 

This is such a heart rending issue throughout the world and has been for eons that it cannot possibly be addressed in a short period of time. It may develop slowly - small increments. I am often an optimist in these regards, which may be delusional to some eyes, but still I speak what I feel.

[Seth Ananda]

been away... what happened here? looks strange!

 

Actually, if women want a female cultivation section, why not? It would probably help having it all there in one spot.

 

It would also be a good Idea for a mens one, as another "do I ejaculate/or not"... thread seems to come up every few weeks anyway. If all sexual cultivation posts/resources were easily found together in their respective areas...

 

It could be quite useful?

[Taomeow]

You have heard my heart issues here. I feel stuck in between worlds, and wondering where I fit, if I have injured myself spiritually by failing to recognize the deep division in myself. This is more common among men than women, as evidenced by the number of sex change operations going from male to female. It has dogged me my whole life. I have always been incapable of maintaining adequate relationships with men or women. I have often wondered whether a period of celibacy is warranted. This makes me think yes. I won't go into extreme detail here, as this is fodder for a more personal thread.

 

EDIT:

 

Although still i do tend to think that there probably is a number of individuals out there who would fit my strange polarity or lack thereof, in some way which is largely unwritten about...the odds feel in favor. I wouldn't waste my time looking however, as that is like searching for a winning lottery ticket. I am basically giving up on dual cultivation desires for an indefinite period of time.

 

However, they say in certain Vajrayana practices that dakinis and dakas of the non corporeal type are superior to having real life partners...this is something I still have access to.

 

I think it's very widespread for people to have no clearly delineated gender to call their own -- partially it's scrambled values (e.g., in order to behave "professionally," a woman is meticulously conditioned to behave like a man; in order to be a "good father," a man is expected to be away from his children every day and never let their lives distract him from his career; and on and on);

partially it's scrambled chemistry (xenoestrogens in the environment and contraceptive pills in the women's bodies create a metabolic milieu where a male fetus can't be fully convinced he's male on the hormonal level -- that's why sex change is more common man to woman than the opposite, the mismatch between anatomy and the deepest self-identification is triggered by excessive estrogen at gestation. If we were exposed to xenotestosterones instead, e.g. if the toxic, carcinogenic, mutagenic, teratogenic, stroke-promoting, health-destroying contraceptive pill was something the man had to take rather than the woman, the picture would have been opposite -- to wit, there would be more women feeling that they're men trapped in female bodies. That's the price we pay when we tax one gender -- the other one invariably pays as well, so the absence of interest in a contraceptive pill for males has this inadvertent outcome, more men being born without having had the benefit of male-specific fetal development. But don't let me digress.)

 

So, I'm not hopeful that we can solve anything at an online forum, we're dealing with trouble at the core of existence in the stand-off of sexes that is completely unnatural, and a stand-off of bogus sexes at that, men who are not what nature meant by that and women, ditto. The minor band-aid to apply to the situation I see as disastrous would be an enforcement of common courtesy, a rule against hurting people's feelings. (Incidentally, I realize I'm hurting someone's feelings by writing what I've been writing, my excuse being that I'm being an equal opportunity offender in this, I am not singling out any one gender or sexual orientation, I think it's our common sorrow, so whatever someone finds hurtful, is the outcome of this actually being everyone's problem...) The forum can be like a nicer part of town or a dangerous part of town -- which would we want it to be? If it's dangerous to be whatever you are here, people who don't want to expose themselves to unprovoked attacks will leave. Did in the past and will in the future unless... well, let the ones with a finger on the demolition button sort it out. And godspeed to them too.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Taomeow

[Seth Ananda]

Youre setting up a straw man argument here , Thats a no no.

 

Stosh, you need to learn what a straw man argument actually is before you through around terms you don't actually understand.

 

Um... So? This is called a question.

 

What does this have to do with women wanting to share their experiences of their own bodies? Another question!

 

And, their experiences of non-popular medically based remedies? Also a question!

 

As a philosophical Taoist, are you denigrating Taoist/energetic, herbal, shamanistic, and alternative medical ways in which women promote their health? And finally, another question!

 

 

No setting up strawman arguments anywhere in here!

 

So what are you doing in this thread? Are you just here to waste space? Do you have an actual valid point to make?

 

 

Sorry, i'll get back on topic in a sec, but a number of posters here at TTB's continually shout debate terms like 'Straw Man argument' without having any idea of what that means.

Its frustrating, and I assume they just want to appear smart, using big terms, but who knows?

 

The Irony is, when they accuse something of being a straw man argument {falsely} that is itself making something approximating an actual real straw man argument.!?!?!

[Seth Ananda]

So Proper rules against hate speech?

 

And a Forum for Female cultivation? {and possibly male?}

 

 

What do people think?

[thelerner]

So Proper rules against hate speech?

 

And a Forum for Female cultivation? {and possibly male?}

 

 

What do people think?

I don't know about proper, but to avoid political correctness and because a little poison can be strengthening, my view on hate speech is to give a warning or two, then suspension. In a limited way there may even be a place for it in The Pit. Its part of our reality, we should be able to discuss it like adults and lock it up when it gets heated. Often such conversations crash and burn but on some occasions good things arise.

 

We've had some extremely misogynistic people here and they've sparked some good conversations. Part of embracing everything is being comfortable with the dark. On the third hand, no wants to see shit where they live.

 

A Forum for Female Cultivation - great. Especially with a good steward who keeps it in line and on focus. (hmmnn, in some ways thats the opposite of my first answer. hmnn. I still stand by it).

[C T]

been away... what happened here? looks strange!

 

Actually, if women want a female cultivation section, why not? It would probably help having it all there in one spot.

 

It would also be a good Idea for a mens one, as another "do I ejaculate/or not"... thread seems to come up every few weeks anyway. If all sexual cultivation posts/resources were easily found together in their respective areas...

 

It could be quite useful?

Its wonderful, your championing voice have yielded fruit. Seemingly.

 

Time will tell... Tao Bums in 5 years... will it be exactly like what it is today, or will there will be 2 separate wings, each concerned with their own kind? Im imagining, based on current trends, that the slightest whisper from one side to the other will be deemed suspect. Is any of this even remotely close to resembling a pioneering of new understandings for both men and women members here, im wondering, or are these sighs of relief a little premature? Time will tell...

 

I sincerely hope this push for some exclusivity will work, for the sake of everyone's progress, if it can be called that. Maybe it will create a bigger chasm, who knows. At the same time, im also wondering what all the fuss is about -- was there really any forceful suppression of women members here wanting to have their own cultivation corner? It could have been easily achieved, even in the PP section, no?

 

Reminds me a little of the sewing clubs formed across the US years ago. That movement instigated a sudden thousand-fold increase in divorce rates all over America & even Europe, always the follower of American trends. Much to the glee of the lawyers, and their lawyers, of course, many of whom have gone on to build burgeoning practices with million-dollar annual profit increase, all thanks to Mrs. Jones, who sincerely believed she felt better in the sewing club than at home. Funny thing is, there was the believe at that time that it was the men and their love of manly pursuits which was the primary motivating factor that forced these clubs into existence. Kind of like a similar tune being sung here, no? Or maybe its just me seeing things. Hmm.

[dawei]

I spent most of the day talking to the brightest minds on TTB... if you were not contacted... well... you must of turned your phone off... right ?

 

For the really smart, you are correct... none of them were men

 

I put forth the idea of a women's cultivation thread... I thought of calling it, The Vagina Monologues

 

Then it seemed it would get lost on the male counter-parts...

 

So I just called it Women's Cultivation , In the PPD area.

 

This way, it is off limits to guest viewing and the moderators (yep... not men) can do as they want with it.

 

 

A men's cultivation area? SURE... it is called TTB

 

 

Hate speech rules? SURE... the anti-hate speech will be included and there are enough examples in this thread to help develop that.

[C T]

Hate speech rules? SURE... the anti-hate speech will be included and there are enough examples in this thread to help develop that.

Examples of anti- or the other?

 

If you're implying the latter, i think there is some exaggeration on your part (where this thread's concerned).

[dawei]

Examples of anti- or the other?

 

If you're implying the latter, i think there is some exaggeration on your part (where this thread's concerned).

 

What is the "other" of anti? Anti's anti? Or is that just hate speech itself?

 

I agree all around.

 

Hate speech is hate speech, regardless of the side of the fence your feet are standing on. Neither side has the right to incite, provoke, or put forth hateful words.

 

In other words: If you target and call out someone and call them stereotype names (hate or anti-hate) and put racist words in their mouth for the purposes of claiming your objection to their position, although they never said those words... and think your justified in attacking them...

 

IN other words, you have no position to attack another who you think is attacking another.

[Apech]

Just been reading about the Xing Ming Gui Zhi and found this in the intro:

 

 

Chen Yingning’s Transcendents’ Path

Chen is the leading popularizer in the Republican era of cultivation techniques popularly conflated with Daoism. An energetic commentator, he interpreted many of the Inner Alchemical classics for a new audience, distributing his writings and providing a forum for other practitioners through the periodicals Bimonthly to Promulgate the Good (Yangshan banyuekan ) and Transcendents’ Path Monthly (Xiandao yuebao). Married to a practicing doctor of Western medicine, Chen became an expert on Inner Alchemical practices for women and cleansed much of the sexual exploitation from inherited dual-cultivation ideology. Due to his interest in Ruism and Chan Buddhism he, too, has been classified as a member of the Central Branch.

 

So its not just TBs has these problems

[Seth Ananda]

I spent most of the day talking to the brightest minds on TTB... if you were not contacted... well... you must of turned your phone off... right ?

 

For the really smart, you are correct... none of them were men

 

I put forth the idea of a women's cultivation thread... I thought of calling it, The Vagina Monologues

 

Then it seemed it would get lost on the male counter-parts...

 

So I just called it Women's Cultivation , In the PPD area.

 

This way, it is off limits to guest viewing and the moderators (yep... not men) can do as they want with it.

 

 

A men's cultivation area? SURE... it is called TTB

 

 

Hate speech rules? SURE... the anti-hate speech will be included and there are enough examples in this thread to help develop that.

 

Cool

 

I hate to look a gift horse in the mouth, but just wondering through, if there was/is a space for more gender specific cultivation practices, would it be better as another subforum just a click away from the general forum, {like buddhism/hinduism/occult} or is this way better for more privacy?

[dawei]

Cool

 

I hate to look a gift horse in the mouth, but just wondering through, if there was/is a space for more gender specific cultivation practices, would it be better as another subforum just a click away from the general forum, {like buddhism/hinduism/occult} or is this way better for more privacy?

 

My feeling right now is that TTB is largely a male posting board... and everywhere you go you can almost read about male cultivation topics... If someone wants to make it more private they can use their own PPF.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

What is the "other" of anti? Anti's anti? Or is that just hate speech itself?

 

I agree all around.

 

Hate speech is hate speech, regardless of the side of the fence your feet are standing on. Neither side has the right to incite, provoke, or put forth hateful words.

 

In other words: If you target and call out someone and call them stereotype names (hate or anti-hate) and put racist words in their mouth for the purposes of claiming your objection to their position, although they never said those words... and think your justified in attacking them...

 

IN other words, you have no position to attack another who you think is attacking another.

 

This doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that if someone is being hateful or racist, those who are offended cannot even acknowledge that they are offended?

 

The clearest term of what your talking about is anti-anti-hate speech - speech which is against hate speech.

 

Are you suggesting that ttb censor objections to hate speech? Censor objections to legally recognized forms of "hate?"

[dawei]

This doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that if someone is being hateful or racist, those who are offended cannot even acknowledge that they are offended?

 

The clearest term of what your talking about is anti-anti-hate speech - speech which is against hate speech.

 

Are you suggesting that ttb censor objections to hate speech? Censor objections to legally recognized forms of "hate?"

 

I said someone who is attacked cannot justify their attack back.

 

Your talking about acknowledging which sounds like the person is being rational even if emotional.

 

Objections also sounds like rational posting with legitimate handle of not breaking the insult rules, nor inciting or provoking.

 

 

If the acknowledging or objection turns into an attack , then it's a problem.

[Marblehead]

Every time I see this thread title I am reminded of a CD I bought that is titled "The Women". It is a collection of the most popular songs of the most popular women singers of early Tejano music. (The early years were very male dominated so it was hard for a woman to get recorded.)

 

And just saying that brought back another memory. My last visit to Texas I went to Alice, Texas, which is considered the birthplace of Tejano music. It really isn't but it is where Tajano music was first recorded and the building it was first recorded in is still being used as a radio station and recording studio. I was allow a tour and spent time with the head DJ talking about the original Tejano music and the artists.

[3bob]

Who but the greatest of masters can truly "turn the other cheek" and not be walked on because of their indomitable will and abiding in spiritual power?

Edited August 30, 2014 by 3bob

[3bob]

I wouldn't mind hearing some insights from gals about their problems with other gals... being that at my work site it seldom seems that gals want to be on the same crew if they can find a half-decent crew of guys to be on. In fact I'm pretty sure that after 35 years I've never heard a gal say she only wanted to work with her fellow females. Another big problem I see is the crossing of the line about a gal becoming like another one of the guys - then being respected as a lady is often lost and difficult to regain.

Edited August 30, 2014 by 3bob

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I said someone who is attacked cannot justify their attack back.

 

Your talking about acknowledging which sounds like the person is being rational even if emotional.

 

Objections also sounds like rational posting with legitimate handle of not breaking the insult rules, nor inciting or provoking.

 

 

If the acknowledging or objection turns into an attack , then it's a problem.

 

Okay, so then just to be clear, this means that we can talk about racism, homophobia, misogyny, etc., so long as we do not attack a member with vicious intent by calling them racist, misogynist, etc. when they do not expressly declare to be so themselves, correct?

 

But we can say "(I believe) such and such idea, ideas, or policy is racially biased/racist, has racist overtones/undertones" correct? (the same applying to other types of legally recognized "hatred," of course...)

[dawei]

Okay, so then just to be clear, this means that we can talk about racism, homophobia, misogyny, etc., so long as we do not attack a member with vicious intent by calling them racist, misogynist, etc. when they do not expressly declare to be so themselves, correct?

 

But we can say "(I believe) such and such idea, ideas, or policy is racially biased/racist, has racist overtones/undertones" correct? (the same applying to other types of legally recognized "hatred," of course...)

 

We're getting off topic... but starting such a topic already raises some flags as they rarely end without some staff action.

 

The attack cannot be on a person or group; nor incite or provoke others. That last part is a more recent inclusion I will apply in my Admin powers to deal with action as needed... But I also want the mods to quickly stop any thread which appears to clearly be heading that way or is already in the weeds.

 

I was very much of the mind to clean up this thread as an example... there is some stuff already posted which could be actionable on some level. I asked one female member their thought and she said to leave all of it in the thread as it reveals all the true colors regarding this topic discussion...

 

This has luckily come out of the weeds at this point but I am not sure there is too much more to really add to the topic.

[Spotless]

This post has brought out everyone's torches.

 

This carrying of torches, however justified or intelligent it may seem - these are the prison bars.

 

They make up the illusion.

 

This makes up our death and it is cemented with our certainty, our story, it is predicated by our vanity, our pride, our fear.

 

Everything we are working to free ourselves from is summed up here within this post - it is glaring us in the face.

 

Look at many of the "best" posts and you can seen an outline of the prison bars - set within a framework of brilliant mind, angry mind, justified mind, self righteous mind - prison mind made of titanium - so alluring it looks sexy, cool and keen.

 

When the day comes and the torches and "you" and your story and your cars and jewels lay cold and lifeless at your feet - that will be a day of light, it can be in this life or as you enter the next upon your bodies death.

 

This does not imply that you cannot participate, it does not imply some mamby pamby sidelined meekness - to the contrary - it is stillness within a mad world. Is the Dali Lama a wimp, has his path been one of stupidity and backtrack? Is he a rigid selfrighteous steeled man banging about in the world asking for revenge or justice?

 

His country has been overrun and yet it is now a thousand times larger that it has ever been and he is as a child but with the heart of a lion and his words have touched millions without the bars of one carrying a torch.

 

Milarepa was fully justified in killing the pigs that stole his family wealth and raining down hell upon the village that passively stood by and slept with the thieves. He carried this torch well until one day he realized that he had accomplished nothing. He then laid this torch down and began the real work.

 

Good and evil do not exist - one can know this and remain active or passive and actively passive but no longer bound by it.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Spotless

[3bob]

rhetorical and presuming

[Rara]

Men dominate the majority of philosophies and religions...it is very difficult to find a reverse of this.

 

We can name so many male philosphers, religious figureheads, "masters" etc. Someone find me a female of the sort and let me eat my hat!

 

This is the nature, and it is sad. I have no solutions at this point, only observations, but I'll have a think and get back to y'all!