Dogen's Shobogenzo

[GrandmasterP]

https://www.bdkamerica.org/digital/dBET_T2582_Shobogenzo1_2009.pdf

 

( Approved to share online).

 

OK so it's a long book but well worth the reading.

Old Dogen had it pretty well sussed IMO.

Taoism begat Ch'an in China and Chinese Ch'an begat Zen in Japan.

Brad Warner the Hardcore Zen dude has a book on Dogen out soon.

 

That quote in my sig is one of Dogen's too.

So...

Anyone wanna talk Shobogenzo or Zen?

It'll make a nice change as PL and Zen seldon get a look in on TTB.

Over to you.......

Edited August 28, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Mark Foote]

Did you see the article from Carl Bielefeldt at Stanford regarding the translation of Shobogenzo he and Griff Foulk are working on?

 

Something from that:

 

“From the perspective of the Sōtō organization, the answer is probably largely institutional: the organization is now sponsoring an authorized edition of the Shōbōgenzō in Japanese. It would also like to have an authorized edition in English. Since Dōgen is the founder of Sōtō, and his Shōbōgenzō is the most important scripture of the school, this felt need for an official version is easy to understand. But so what? What does this mean for us as readers of the Shōbōgenzō? After all, it’s not as if we’re all going to stop reading the other translations and adopt the church version as our bible. Just because it’s been authorized in Tokyo doesn’t mean it’s better than what we’ve got already.

 

Frankly, speaking as one of the translators, I don’t think our translations will be better than the best of what we’ve got already. Of course, it’s not so easy to say what makes a “better” translation. OK, we want to it to be accurate. But what does that mean? True to the letter of the original? True to the meaning? True to the spirit? True to Dōgen’s intention in writing it? True to the varied Sōtō traditions of interpretation? This is something we could talk about later. But for now, if by “better” we mean the translation that we put by our bedside or stuff in our back pack when we go camping, I don’t think I’d choose ours. If ours are going to be better in any way, they’ll be better in some other way than this, good for something else besides bedtime reading.”

 

That’s from here:

http://scbs.stanford.edu/sztp3/news/archive/translating_dogen.html

 

Carl goes on to give an example of their translation of "Ocean Seal Samadhi", with what he feels are the necessary references in order to understand the material Dogen is drawing on:

 

"Samādhi is the actual present; it is a saying. It is “the night” when “the hand gropes for the pillow behind.”(1) The groping for a pillow like this of “the hand groping for the pillow behind” in the night is not merely “hundreds of millions of tens of thousands of kalpas”; it is “in the ocean, I always preached only the Lotus Sūtra of the Wondrous Dharma.”(2) Because “they don’t state, ‘I arise,’” “I am in the ocean.”(3) The former face is the “I always preached” of “the slightest motion of a single wave, and ten thousand waves follow”; the latter face is the Lotus Sūtra of the Wondrous Dharma of “the slightest motion of ten thousand waves, and a single wave follows.”(4) Whether we wind up or let out “a line of a thousand feet” or ten thousand feet, what we regret is that it “goes straight down.” The former face and latter face here are “I am on the face of the ocean.” They are like saying “the former head” and “the latter head.” The former head and the latter head are “putting a head on top on your head.”(5)"
_______________
1. Allusion to a dialogue between Yunyan Tansheng (780?-841) and fellow disciple Daowu Yuanzhi (769-835) regarding the Bodhisattva Avalokiteśvara, who in one form is represented as having a thousand arms with an eye in the palm of each hand. “Yunyan asked Daowu, ‘How does the bodhisattva of great compassion use so many hands and eyes?’ Wu said, ‘Like a person searching behind him for his pillow in the night.’”
2. Allusion to two passages from the Lotus Sutra: (a) From the Sadāparibhūta chapter, in which the Buddha is emphasizing the rare opportunity to encounter the teaching of the sūtra: “After hundreds of millions of tens of thousands of kalpas, after an inconceivable period, they [the bodhisattvas] can hear this Lotus Sūtra. After hundreds of millions of tens of thousands of kalpas, after an inconceivable period, the buddhas, the bhagavats, preach this sūtra.” (From the Devadatta chapter, in which the Bodhisattva Mañjuśrī is explaining how he taught the sūtra in the realm of the nāgas: “In the ocean, I always preached only the Lotus Sūtra of the Wondrous Dharma.”
3. Allusion to a passage in the Vimalakīrti-sūtra, in which Vimalakīrti explains how the sick bodhisattva should view his body: “It is just the dharmas that combine to form this body. When it arises, it is simply the dharmas arising; when it ceases, it is simply the dharmas ceasing. When these dharmas arise, [the bodhisattva] does not state, ‘I arise’; when these dharmas cease, he does not state, ‘I cease.’”
4. Dōgen is here borrowing lines from a poem by the Tang-dynasty master Chuanzi (“the boatman”) Decheng (dates unknown): “A line of a thousand feet goes straight down / The slightest motion of a single wave, and ten thousand waves follow / The evening is still, the water cold; the fish aren’t feeding / I come home with a fully empty boat, loaded with moonlight.”
5. The awkward translations “former face,” “latter face,” and “former head,” “latter head” struggle to preserve the play here on the colloquiual Chinese suffixes mien and tou. Though they would ordinarily function simply as nominalizers, Dōgen uses their primary semantic senses to move from former and latter “faces” to the “face” (i.e., surface) of the ocean, then from former and latter “heads” to the common Zen expression “putting a head on top of your head” (i.e., seeking that which one already has).

 

Doesn't seem like a lot of material has appeared on the Stanford project in the last half-decade. I could be wrong. I know they have to get permission from Sotoshu to post it.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Mark Foote

[GrandmasterP]

Hi Mark.

Good post.

That Nishijima/ Cross version is as good as any IMO.

Given that few of us will ever be able to read the original as we don't read or understand Japanese and even for Japanese readers some of the nuances could seem obscure at the very least then we treat with the words on the page.

It's a huge corpus and something in there for everybody.

Sometimes 'too many cooks spoil the broth'.

Look at all the TTC versions out there likewise the Christian Bible.

You pays your money and takes your choice with a version to suit each and every sectarian approach.

I 'm looking forward to Brad's forthcoming Dogen commentary.

On topic though and as this is a Taoist site I thought to cite some Dogen wherein I reckon Taoism can be detected...

For example

Edited August 29, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[GrandmasterP]

In Chapter 76 Dogen says...

"By groping for what great Buddhist practice is, [we can find that] it is just great causes and effects themselves. And because these causes and effects are inevitably perfect causes and complete effects, they could never be discussed as falling or not falling, or as unclear or not unclear. If the idea of not falling into cause and effect is mistaken, the idea of not being unclear about cause and effect must also be mistaken."

 

Pure Taoism there IMO

 

Edited August 29, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[lifeforce]

Taoism begat Ch'an in China and Chinese Ch'an begat Zen in Japan.

 

What about Korean Zen ? Everyone seems to forget Korea. As if Chinese Ch'an suddenly morphed into Japanese Zen. Not.

[GrandmasterP]

For sure.

Zen's big in South Korea and Vietnam too.

I'd not thought to ignore other Zens but this thread was for Shobogenzo which is basically a Japanese text in the original.

Not much interest in this sub forum though.

I reckon it was a good idea but maybe not for TTB as there are so few of us and the Buddha Bums we do have tend towards Tibetan interests.

Still and all - thanks for posting here.

Edited September 4, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Michael Sternbach]

I was practising Zazen first with a Zen monk in Switzerland, then I attended a group in the Sosenji in Kyoto/Japan in the late 80s. I'm not continuing this particular practice any longer but I never lost my interest in Zen. The Shobogenzo has been on my "books to read" list for quite a while. Thanks for reminding me of it!

 

Also, the Zen spirit ties in rather nicely with my practice of martial arts.

 

I think that Zazen is a form of practising the Microcosmic orbit.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[GrandmasterP]

Interesting that you say that Michael.

MCO/ Zazen.

I can see where that could work but if someone is sitting zazen and at the same time 'thinking' about working the MCO might that not detract from the zazen?

Never tried both at the same time but I only sit zazen now and again anyhoo as my poor old legs don't enjoy it as much as once they did.

QiGong every day nowadays and that keeps me moving.

 

Shobogenzo's hard going in parts and is sure to be better in the original but no way can I be ersed learning Japanese.

There's some good stuff in there plus lots of humour.

Edited September 5, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Michael Sternbach]

Interesting that you say that Michael.

MCO/ Zazen.

I can see where that could work but if someone is sitting zazen and at the same time 'thinking' about working the MCO might that not detract from the zazen?

 

What I meant is that Zazen works along similar principles like MCO and therefore has comparable effects (but you may be having a hard time to find a devout practitioner who would admit this). I thought of combining them explicitly but never really tried it, until now. Yes, it would shift the mental focus from pure awareness to visualization (or however you look at MCO). But it might be worth trying for somebody like me whose mind rarely comes to rest anyway.

 

Never tried both at the same time but I only sit zazen now and again anyhoo as my poor old legs don't enjoy it as much as once they did.

 

Yeah, what Alan Watts referred to as "the aching legs kind of Buddhism". Could handle it best when I was sitting right next to the priest in the Sosenji for two hours. I like to think that it was the priest's aura that helped me through it - even with a sense of power. Alas, I wasn't sitting next to him every time...

 

Shobogenzo's hard going in parts and is sure to be better in the original but no way can I be ersed learning Japanese.

There's some good stuff in there plus lots of humour.

 

I really should have got that book when I saw a German edition in a book store many years ago. Well, it's never too late... I will read it soon and then let's talk about it some more.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[GrandmasterP]

I don't agree with Alan Watts on much but he was spot on with 'aching legs Buddhism'.

 

[RigdzinTrinley]

Little Experiment: take a selfie then read the following Text composed by dogen (I think it is part of the shobogenzo actually, but not sure) and after take another selfie

 

 

http://www.nozt.org/teachings/edsansui.shtml

[Mark Foote]

I confess, sometimes Dogen's use of negatives and double-negatives leaves me in the dust.   I read Genjo Koan looking for positive and substantive sentences, and I came away with two and a half:

 

"When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point… Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent."

 

(tr. Robert Aitken and Kazuaki Tanahashi. Revised at San Francisco Zen Center, and later at Berkeley Zen Center)

 

It's an interesting exercise, to read Dogen only for the sentences that are positive and substantive. 

 

On the subject of aching legs Buddhism, I finally attended a five-day sesshin last fall, at Jikoji.  I discovered that at least for the sesshin I attended, they were sitting mostly 40 minutes, followed by walking, followed by 30 minutes.  At one of the teas, I learned that the Los Angeles Zen Center sits mostly 35 minutes (although they open their sesshins with a 50-minute sitting).  I offered at the tea that I understood Rinzai centers sit for 25 minutes, and no one seemed to be able to confirm or deny that.  I do have a friend who sits 25's, and he says it's the same effect by the end of the day.

 

I mentioned Shohaku Okumura and the 50-minute sitting they do at Antaiji--apparently they would sit 14 50-minute periods a day for a five-day sesshin every month?--and I was told Shohaku now sits in a chair, on account of his knees won't go there anymore.  I did see him sitting in a chair for lecture at Berkeley, and I wondered about that.

 

I was hoping to sit the whole sesshin at Jikoji in the lotus, alternating left and right, but I mostly ended up with the right leg on top (contrary to Dogen's instructions in Fukanzazengi) and almost never completed an entire 40 minute sitting that way.  That surprised me, because I was sitting 40 at home, albeit not repeatedly.

 

In the recently published "Embracing Mind", Kobun Otogawa is quoted as saying he never had pain in the lotus (or very little).  In fact, he said he sat the lotus to stay out of pain.   

 

I think there is a way to do that, although I'm sure it helps to start really young, as he did.  Here's the way I'm seeing:

Turning to the Left, Turning to the Right, Following Up Behind

Just thought I'd offer it up.

 

Edited April 9, 2018 by Mark Foote

[LAOLONG]

It is not ZEN

[Michael Sternbach]

So what is it? 

[LAOLONG]

6 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

So what is it? 

It is the Shobogenzo ☺

[9th]

ShoboGonzo, maybe

[Michael Sternbach]

7 hours ago, 121 said:

It is the Shobogenzo ☺

 

The Shobogenzo is the essence of Zen (as far as it can be expressed in words). 

[Michael Sternbach]

4 hours ago, 9th said:

ShoboGonzo, maybe

 

I'm not sure what Gonzo would have to do with Zen, although he does have spiritual powers...

 

 

 

[9th]

[9th]

Zen sickness

Hakuin's early extreme exertions affected his health, and at one point in his young life he fell ill for almost two years, experiencing what would now probably be classified as a nervous breakdown by Western medicine. He called it Zen sickness, and sought the advice of a Taoist cave dwelling hermit named Hakuyu, who prescribed a visualization and breathing practice which eventually relieved his symptoms. From this point on, Hakuin put a great deal of importance on physical strength and health in his Zen practice, and studying Hakuin-style Zen required a great deal of stamina. Hakuin often spoke of strengthening the body by concentrating the spirit, and followed this advice himself. Well into his seventies, he claimed to have more physical strength than he had at age thirty, being able to sit in zazen meditation or chant sutras for an entire day without fatigue. The practices Hakuin learned from Hakuyu are still passed down within the Rinzai school

[9th]