Rare Martial Arts (post them)

[Nungali]

This guy is truly amazing http://youtu.be/63xMDIy3Xic

 

Very precise and formal bow to Mifune San ... that was a pleasure to watch.

[Nungali]

Brazilian Capoeira

 

This martial art is unique in its defiance of what most other martial arts take for granted (i.e., never stand on your hands while facing an opponent ). Not my first choice as far as realistic self-defence, but I think there is some useful stuff in there in this regard. Also, I think it's noteworthy that Capoeira kicks (literally done with the whole body) have been measured to outdo any others in a study that I watched.

 

 

best capoeira accompanying music too - very skilled !

 

neighbour did it, his instructor visited and he bought him over to my place and we had a bit of a go. It was quiet different and effective against another style, especially his fighting from the ground , his low reverse leg sweeps were easy to avoid ... except they were windups for other things, some of which worked quiet well ( very hard to hit him when he was down there with his legs flailing around and making me keep distance) . He didnt do anything 'foolish' at me ... like this: ( he was weary of me being an unknown - sensible guy! )

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWBmEHzbOXI

 

 

 

 

thats for 'playing' as he explained ... we played with a handstand / head kick at me ... oh dear ... its hard to block your upside head down there while both arms are on the ground ... but, after practical modifications and removing 'playing' I found what he did pretty good and effective.

 

He loved my defences against weapons ... and the weapons forms themselves, especially the forms and moves I had transfered to ' Nungali 2 machetes forms ( 6 all up) ' from the Sokan Karma and Sai forms (3 of each) ... machete is used in some Capoeira .... we talked about setting it to music ... which I would love to do !!! ... but he went OS

 

[ M ... , the instructor, called in on me a couple of months back ... he had been to Brasil for a few months, I asked him how it was: ( thick Brazilian accent ) : " Oooo man ! Fantastic man, we party on the beach at night, feasting, drinking, training, dancing music every day. I see all my family. Beautiful women there man! Nightclubs ... surfing ... gunga ... life is a party there man ... "

 

Me: " And now ...... you're back here ."

 

Him ; " ..... <slump> yeah ..... "

 

 

Perhaps their life vitality passes into their martial art ?

 

remember this ?

 

[Andrei]

Lateef Crowder was a member of Zero Gravity Team, here is a short movie made by them:

 

[Nungali]

Oh yeah

 

Love his 'horseshoe punch' application @ 3.14 ( it rarely is demonstrated 'properly' IMO )

 

and the strikes on the attacking arm ... then it goes to ThreeStoogesville

 

At first I thought 'Zero Gravity Team' was going to be about advanced MA stunt work ... you would be surprised about what goes on there ( I worked on the Matrix films - but not in stunts - I used to watch though )

[Andrei]

Yeah, they do stunts but this one I really liked because of the wing chun and taichi applications and of course the comedy they do.

[Michael Sternbach]

I think the people in charge were trying to tone things down so aikido would be allowed by their military victors ?

 

I rather think that Aikido was too esoteric or "soft" for them. The same reason why they actually even turned down Goju-ryu, Wado-ryu and Shito-ryu Karate. JKA Shotokan with its straightforward "kill or get killed" approach came in handy.

 

Well , all kata moves should have more than 1 application I reckon . Where you referring to the opening ( 3rd move, I think) Niharchin Nidan ? - The simultaneous block reversed fist strike ? I dont understand how the bukai applied properly directs the kick into the target .... especially considering tai sebaki ?

 

Obviously some misunderstanding here... you mean this sequence?

 

 

Yes, this makes sense - capture that arm, then reversed fist strike or vertical back knuckle to the head.

 

You can also throw a kick in as shown just before 2:30.

 

But I'm not sure how you would catch kick with any of these moves?

 

Btw, when I wrote that kicks to the bladder work well, what I meant was simply a short forward thrust kick off the front leg. Hurts like a bitch. If nothing else, it drives the adversary backwards (well, mostly his lower section) - making him stretch out his neck. A chop to the carotid sinus, delivered with the front hand, will then almost certainly result in a knock-out.

 

Groin kicks for self-defence are overrated, imo ("just kick 'em all in the nuts and get out of there"). They're unreliable - some guys can take quite a hard hit there in the heat of a fight as David above reports, too. Plus, men are reflexively very protective of their groin.

 

Except that is the Fuse and Kuda descent from Hohan Soken, its not Seito ... that could only be passed on (as the head) to a family member. Mr. Nishihiri didnt have a martial heir... so Seito Matsamura Shorin Ryu ended with him.

 

Okay. My primary source on Matsumura Shorin-ryu is George W. Alexander who studied from Kuda and also did a lot of original research on the Okinawan White Crane variation.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2BimSrNmhc

 

Talking about the Aikido links: A lot to read - very interesting material. Much appreciated.

[GreytoWhite]

Okinawan karate was heavily influenced by the Liu family's Feeding Crane style.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

GreytoWhite,

 

Your video is showing once again that Taiji and White Crane have a number of principles in common.

 

I am still interested to find out more about White Crane's Fa-jin methods.

 

Okinawan karate was heavily influenced by the Liu family's Feeding Crane style.

 

As you certainly know, there are several Fujian White Crane styles. Why do you think that Liu family's Feeding Crane in particular was a major influence?

[GreytoWhite]

Michael there are records that show this line of Feeding Crane was present in Okinawa within the past 200 years. I don't have all the details as Southern styles of kung fu interest me little and I am mainly interested in Japanese styles like Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and Daito Ryu over karate. I think that this would have more information than I could provide off the top of my head.

 

http://www.iogkf.com/newsletter/edition_2011_3/edition_2011_2/articles_pg_01.htm

 

Here is an interesting video - a kind of popsci practice insight to Liu Chang I's movement.

 

[Nungali]

Obviously some misunderstanding here... you mean this sequence?

 

That aint how I was taught to do it. The opening is totally different. And it looks more like Sandan techniques.

 

 

Oh Crap ... I mean Naihanchin SANDAN Doh! - sorry about that. Actually, that is not even how I start Naihanchin Nidan, its this start;

 

 

It looks like no one does sandan the way I was taught, the slight variation is here at 0.45 - 0.47 Doh! 0.o5 - 0.07

 

as his right hand comes across, in the version I was taught the left block is followed' at the same time with that strike, palm up fist, and across your left wrist ... a lot lower, to evade ( to the 'inside' and forward), block and strike the side of the others kneecap. I got a light one a couple of times ... not good.

Yes, this makes sense - capture that arm, then reversed fist strike or vertical back knuckle to the head.

 

You can also throw a kick in as shown just before 2:30.

 

But I'm not sure how you would catch kick with any of these moves?

 

Btw, when I wrote that kicks to the bladder work well, what I meant was simply a short forward thrust kick off the front leg. Hurts like a bitch. If nothing else, it drives the adversary backwards (well, mostly his lower section) - making him stretch out his neck. A chop to the carotid sinus, delivered with the front hand, will then almost certainly result in a knock-out.

 

Groin kicks for self-defence are overrated, imo ("just kick 'em all in the nuts and get out of there"). They're unreliable - some guys can take quite a hard hit there in the heat of a fight as David above reports, too. Plus, men are reflexively very protective of their groin.

 

 

Okay. My primary source on Matsumura Shorin-ryu is George W. Alexander who studied from Kuda and also did a lot of original research on the Okinawan White Crane variation.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2BimSrNmhc

 

Talking about the Aikido links: A lot to read - very interesting material. Much appreciated.

 

Edited September 20, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

GreytoWhite,

 

Your video is showing once again that Taiji and White Crane have a number of principles in common.

 

I am still interested to find out more about White Crane's Fa-jin methods.

 

 

As you certainly know, there are several Fujian White Crane styles. Why do you think that Liu family's Feeding Crane in particular was a major influence?

 

Still, its just one influence ... one can actually see the records of who, from the Okinawan Royal Palace and other places went to China (usually Fukien ) and where they studies, including Matsamura (and he was also in a japanese sword school) - I cant remember the source . The other major influences on Matsamura and one of his teacher (Sakagawa) were Kusanku ( Kwang Shang Fu, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%ABsank%C5%AB ) - Ch'uan fa and Chinto, a Chinese pirate , although seemingly influenced by white crane Chinto employs the hook leg stance (tsuru ashi Saglashi in Shotokan)

 

 

as a stance other than the usual crane stance (Hohan Soken's style)

 

 

 

( which is not actually a stance IMO but a finishing position after a specific combo )

 

and again different from 'The Heron' - Rohai kata;

 

 

Hook stance may have been developed as a variation of Chinto's; being a pirate, al ot of fighting would involve boarded, repelling and on / inside ship fighting, the hook stance would protect your front leg from being grabbed by one below you - more often then not the up / down level in fighting (stairs for example) usually involves a battle over the higher's lead leg (he's trying to kick you in the head and you are trying to grap the leg and pull him down or attack extremities).

Edited September 20, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

 

 

Now I am sure some peoples hips are constructed different,, when I toe kick 'around the corner' * I end up with the withdrawn foot more angled (and I like to also bend the other knee and keep lower - could be Mr. Soken's pants ... he might be quiet bent at the knee? ) and end up looking more like Vajrayogini doing the stomp

 

 

* the corner of the opponents hip when you are nearly 90 degrees to his 'inside' and kick 'around' to the groin or inside thigh while you are both virtually facing the same way. I used mostly my knee and twisting the hip . The 'proper' way ... my hips dont work like that . (Must be that constant sitting and walking around the floor on one's knees ?)

[Andrei]

Baji, one of the most badass styles. And if you combine baji with taiji you get this:

 

[Andrei]

Baji:

 

 

 

Bashanfan:

 

 

Edited September 20, 2014 by Andrei

[Andrei]

Chuo Jiao Fan Zi Quan

 

 

 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

GreytoWhite,

 

Thanks for all these informations.

 

The video looks very interesting. I'm sure you will make and post a translation from Chinese?

 

Just kidding...

 

For one thing, you told us that you're rather into Japanese arts like Shinkage-ryu and Daito-ryu... I find the latter particularly appealing, in context with my background in Aikido. I once thought of it as much more "martial"/realistic than Aikido, but having watched some videos and read some books, I'm not so sure about this any more. It rather looks like yet another style of Aikido to me (except that it's older).

Edited September 20, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

That could be the modern incorporation. I used to be able to type 'Daito-ryu in slow motion' into google vids and some interesting clips would come up ... now they all seem either silly or pretty much Aikido .

 

(I wonder where those clips went? ... one was pretty good , ignoring the 'allowing' at the very beginning of the movement, the two opponents grab an arm each, they are beautifully taken down, interlocked like a wood puzzle that holds a Japanese roof on, down to the last wrist hold that holds it all together - dude then stands on that wrist to hold them in place while taking a clam ready posture for other attacks ... while the other two are held down by his one foot. ... okay, it might not work in a ;'eal' situation ... but it was great demo ... bummer it's gone .)

[Nungali]

Ha ... that last vid reminded me of something ... I have had this habit ... for about 30 years ... of backfisting walls as I walk along, only brick or stone now (after I got that complaint about the wood one ) ... one gets used to it (and no - my hands look pretty normal )

 

One time when things were slack at work me and my boss were leaning against a sandstone wall (watching others work) .. we muck around a bit and occasionally will break out into a silly mock fight that some have taken seriously (he trained in Shotokan in Iran) . This day, I start giving him a heavy look and .... whack ! night next to his head on the wall with a backfist - he laughs and then goes "Didnt that hurt?"

 

"Nah."

 

before I could stop him he goes I smash ! into the rough cut sandstone wall (and he has forearms like legs of ham)

 

" OWW! OH .... O shit! " <dances around holding his hand> then starts abusing me " I thought you said it didnt hurt? You bastard! "

 

 

" Dude! You asked if it hurt me not if would hurt you .... you gotta practice a bit first ."

 

Very entertaining and fun guy to have as a boss

 

 

.... errrm ... not that I would want to fight the guy in the last clip .... but ... that dragging the front foot back before the kick is a bit of a tell is isnt it? Also the low kicks to the leg seems to need a lot of leaning back with the upper body ??? If I tried that I used to get my leg hooked by teacher (after he did this little foot slap it out the way) , flip it up with his foot and I would be on my back. If weight is not balanced back it is possible to do a reversal of that defense, rollover to the inside with your foot and kick in at the opposite inside top thigh. (These guys used to do 'sticky hands' with their feet ... its beyond me , I can do it a teenie bit... but after a while I noticed when I trained with another local senior instructor - from a different karate school - he would go to kick and I would leg block him and he would fall over, when we swapped, I would kick and he would leg block me ... and still fall over.

 

It seems to make sense to block such a low kick with the lower extremities ? They do that in Kung fu a lot don't they?

[Nungali]

And the second last vid, the footwork at the beginning - we use that with ecu ; the oar and the foot kick up dust or sand into the opponents eyes.

[GreytoWhite]

Michael I would agree that much of what is demonstrated as Daito-ryu now looks like an older version of aikido. I'm not interested in the techniques but rather the aiki engine of the art. One of these days I'll get into a Dan Harden seminar and see what it's about. Some have compared what he teaches to neijia exercises but it seems that Dan has trained these aspects to a different point than many and can teach what he is working on. I didn't much like aikido when I learned it as a child but that's a different story.

 

Yagyu shinkage ryu seems to be one of the arts that Minoru Akuzawa has taken some heavy influence in his creation of Aunkai. I've been interested in his art for a while and find it has some extremely functional basics that aren't quite compatible with the neijia I have been exposed to but are a good fallback set of skills if one is injured or just trying to power out.

 

One of my favorite internal Chinese arts is called Ziranmen. If I've posted this already forgive me. It is similar to Yiquan in its focus on basic exercises but they're a bit more flexible and some groups have incorporated forms from other arts. Although traditional Ziranmen circle walking is quite a bit different and IMO more immediately applicable as a jibengong exercise. The story of "a dwarf taught me" in its lore is ever entertaining.

 

 

 

[Nungali]

 

 

 

 

[rideforever]

On 01/09/2014 at 2:08 AM, GreytoWhite said:

I hate it when someone posts the Helen Liang Liuhebafa it's the wushu competition variation and completely empty.

 

Hmm, I am thinking of learning Liuhebafa.   Today I have just been looking through about 8 versions from different people.   It's giving me a headache, they all look completely different, are they doing the same form ?- difficult to tell.  Different direction, differnt number of movements, different energetic movement.
Helen Liang, well at least she is athletic and puts some vigour into it, looks interesting, at least she appears to be trying to do something.   
Not sure about these old guys or overweight guys moving slightly - it's a bit navel gazing isn't it ?
Jeez really not sure what to say.   There is a devil on my shoulder sometimes saying this is all BS.
I really don't know.

[GreytoWhite]

Liuhebafa was still being formulated from about four different kung fu sets from the rural village Wu Yihui grew up in throughout his life. So each of his eras and areas that he taught in show different flavors dependent on his students' other experience as well . What Helen Liang is showing is a wushu competition form. Were I looking to study the art I'd start with an instructor from the following organizations.

 

http://liuhebafachuan.com/

 

This group is led by Mok Kei Fai - the last disciple of Chen Yiren.

 

http://aocma.com/

 

This is a student of Wai Lun Choi's in Chicago. Wai Lun Choi was an accomplished fighter and had a background in Lama pai before learning internal arts from Chen Yiren.

 

http://www.xinyimeditation.com/

 

David Chan taught a combined version of Chen Yiren's Liuhebafa along with Yiquan. Some will say that Liuhebafa's 9 Joints and 5 Hearts theory is violated by Yiquan's Hunyuan Li but his students look to be skilled and have trained MMA competitors for the SE Asian circuit.

 

https://hanshiyiquan.us/index.html

 

If you're looking to avoid forms and want something more focused on partner exercises the Han family teaches Yiquan that is heavily influenced by Liuhebafa. Han Xing Qiao's wife was an indoor student of Wu Yihui's and the opening of LHBF's main form has been integrated into it. This is the only group I've personally touched hands with but the rest have been vetted by people whose experience I trust. I'm more of a bagua guy the last two years.

[Starjumper]

Here's a really rare martial art.  It's called tai chi, and almost all tai chi masters do not know this kind of stuff, the ones that do don't show it.   Like Grandmaster Tchough Ta Tchen, one of my teachers, said:  "Even the top tai chi masters of today are like hollow shells compared to those of the past."  You know, the ones that prance around in their tai chi costumes and tai chi shoes and have tai chi certificates.  Here's a Video of another of my teachers demonstrating some real tai chi which he learned from Tchoung and from my chi kung teacher.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Starjumper

[moment]

7 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Here's a really rare martial art.  It's called tai chi, and almost all tai chi masters do not know this kind of stuff, the ones that do don't show it.   Like Grandmaster Tchough Ta Tchen, one of my teachers, said:  "Even the top tai chi masters of today are like hollow shells compared to those of the past."  You know, the ones that prance around in their tai chi costumes and tai chi shoes and have tai chi certificates.  Here's a Video of another of my teachers demonstrating some real tai chi which he learned from Tchoung and from my chi kung teacher.

 

 

The Great Dave Harris doing one of his many demonstrations at the Phinney Ridge Community Center.