Ice Bucket bail out...

[Rara]

 

I assume the person who made it is against animal research which is fair, but she's not about telling the whole truth, using an analysis that misses 60% of there budget, ignoring the better numbers of the next year. The cheese footage. I assume the animal footage is not from ALSA but is also stock footage. I wish she'd actually talk to them and research the facts on what kind of animal research they do. The reality of the situation, not her assumptions.

 

Liking because of this.

 

Who's to say animal testing is immoral if it could potentially help save a larger majority?

 

Other sources do state that ALS' research on animals is irrelevant and wasted, as such symptoms wouldn't even appear in the ones being tested. on.

[Marblehead]

Who's to say animal testing is immoral if it could potentially help save a larger majority?

 

 

I would like to present one point for consideration:

 

We humans have over-populated the planet with humans and caused the extinction of many species because or our mismanagement of the planet. It is more immoral to do this. Killing other animals into extinction for the various benefits of humans is totally immoral, IMO.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

I've been taking ice baths for years, so, bring it on!

Hehehe. You must be one cold dude by now!

[Rara]

I would like to present one point for consideration:

 

We humans have over-populated the planet with humans and caused the extinction of many species because or our mismanagement of the planet. It is more immoral to do this. Killing other animals into extinction for the various benefits of humans is totally immoral, IMO.

Yes, I hear that.

 

In an ideal world, if we were able to manage the world better and be mindful of extinction, would your point of view change? What I mean is this:

 

Hypothetically, if the "powers" could test on minimal numbers of animals with the aim to preserve as much life as possible, but to sacrifice the odd few for research, is this still immoral?

 

You don't have to answer that...I feel it's unfair to challenge people on what IS moral because there are very few 'absolute' answers out there. I just think it's worth considering if we take history out of the equation.

[Marblehead]

Hypothetically, if the "powers" could test on minimal numbers of animals with the aim to preserve as much life as possible, but to sacrifice the odd few for research, is this still immoral?

 

You don't have to answer that...I feel it's unfair to challenge people on what IS moral because there are very few 'absolute' answers out there. I just think it's worth considering if we take history out of the equation.

Oh, I started this; I'm not going to shrink away from a discussion of it. Hehehe.

 

First, I must state that I am an omnivour and I have no problem with some animals eating other animals because that is the way nature designed the planet.

 

In an ideal world, animals could be bred in a controlled environment for the sole purpose of using for testing. And the Chinese could stop causing the extinction of various species for the purpose of tribal medicines that don't work.

 

And all humans could control their birth rate so that the population is sustainable without causing the destruction of habitates that other species need in order to not become extinct.

 

In reality, morality has nothing to do with it. It is simple logic and common sense.

[thelerner]

Oh, I started this; I'm not going to shrink away from a discussion of it. Hehehe.

 

First, I must state that I am an omnivour and I have no problem with some animals eating other animals because that is the way nature designed the planet.

 

In an ideal world, animals could be bred in a controlled environment for the sole purpose of using for testing. And the Chinese could stop causing the extinction of various species for the purpose of tribal medicines that don't work.

 

And all humans could control their birth rate so that the population is sustainable without causing the destruction of habitates that other species need in order to not become extinct.

 

In reality, morality has nothing to do with it. It is simple logic and common sense.

I'm thinking of using this as an OP for a new thread in Off Topic. Wonder what it should be called?

Ethical Pathways & Predictions for the Future? (seems a little clunky) any ideas

[Rara]

I'm thinking of using this as an OP for a new thread in Off Topic. Wonder what it should be called?

Ethical Pathways & Predictions for the Future? (seems a little clunky) any ideas

Good idea.

 

MH, I would say that morality still has something to do with it...for even if we take a logical approach to minimise suffering (common sense) surely this is still a "good" thing. Just like its opponent, genocide, is a "bad" thing.

 

For a title, how about something along the lines if "Logical strategies for universal wellness"?

[Marblehead]

Good idea.

 

MH, I would say that morality still has something to do with it...for even if we take a logical approach to minimise suffering (common sense) surely this is still a "good" thing. Just like its opponent, genocide, is a "bad" thing.

 

For a title, how about something along the lines if "Logical strategies for universal wellness"?

I don't disagree with you about my not using the concept work "morality" but isn't that already included within the concept of "common sense"?

[Brian]

I don't disagree with you about my not using the concept work "morality" but isn't that already included within the concept of "common sense"?

I think morality and common sense are orthogonal in very much the same way as are "real" and "imaginary" numbers -- at right-angles to each other in a direction I cannot point but which is no less essential because of it. This often manifests as morality being "that which is not strictly 'in my best interest' but which I know to be 'the right thing.'" The "units" of common sense are "good" and "bad" while the "units" of morality are "right" and "wrong." The confusion of these two concepts and the dissonance which occurs when the two are not in harmony can be problematic.

[Marblehead]

The "units" of common sense are "good" and "bad" while the "units" of morality are "right" and "wrong."

Right there you hit on my position (opinion and understanding). But then, I subscribe to the concept of "useful/useless" so for me it can't be any other way. Regretfully, morality does not apply.

[Brian]

The little old lady in the checkout line in front of you cashes her check and then drops her money in the parking lot as she is loading her groceries. She doesn't notice you pick it up as you open your own car door.

 

"Usefulness" is not what motivates you to stop her as she's backing out of her parking space and returning it to her. Keeping the money would be useful to you. Returning it comes from someplace different.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I feel we should have a crohns awareness challenge . I will contact the FDA about acquiring me some salmonella infected chicken for everyone.

 

I know I shouldn't make light of a horrible condition, and it is awesome that people are aware of things, but I find it a tiny bit funny!

 

I have heard the water wasting argument many times, but we waste more than that watering our lawn once, or washing our car.

 

I think awareness is good; I think peer pressure is bad.

 

We waste so much more water by relying on nuclear, petrol, and coal electricity sources than any drop we can waste on lawns, or bucket challenges.

 

There's no argument here, just whiny uninformed complaints.

 

Anyone who wants to complain about wasting water has got to get their priorities straight and talk about power plants first, and forget about the ice bucket challenge sheesh.

[Marblehead]

The little old lady in the checkout line in front of you cashes her check and then drops her money in the parking lot as she is loading her groceries. She doesn't notice you pick it up as you open your own car door.

 

"Usefulness" is not what motivates you to stop her as she's backing out of her parking space and returning it to her. Keeping the money would be useful to you. Returning it comes from someplace different.

I must totally disagree with what you just said. Remember that I am an anarchist. The anarchist in me would require me to hollar at the lady and tell her she dropped her money. This has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with doing the right thing. It is her money, not mine.

 

No, keeping the money would be selfishness. It would be greed. It would be taking advantage of others. Returning it to her would be the only right thing to do because it is her's. Usefulness comes into play because after returning the money to the lady I have been useful to her.

[Rara]

 

We waste so much more water by relying on nuclear, petrol, and coal electricity sources than any drop we can waste on lawns, or bucket challenges.

 

There's no argument here, just whiny uninformed complaints.

 

Anyone who wants to complain about wasting water has got to get their priorities straight and talk about power plants first, and forget about the ice bucket challenge sheesh.

I now agree.

 

I'm just not doing the ice bucket challenge because a) someone has told me to and I just really don't want to.

 

I still give to charity from time to time and do my bit for community. Maybe others don't which is why they need a meme to make them "aware".

[Rara]

I must totally disagree with what you just said. Remember that I am an anarchist. The anarchist in me would require me to hollar at the lady and tell her she dropped her money. This has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with doing the right thing. It is her money, not mine.

 

No, keeping the money would be selfishness. It would be greed. It would be taking advantage of others. Returning it to her would be the only right thing to do because it is her's. Usefulness comes into play because after returning the money to the lady I have been useful to her.

So do you not link doing the "right" thing with having "good" morals? Are they really two different ball parks?

[KenBrace]

Dude, just do it lol.

[soaring crane]

Out of context but you have reminded me to man up and do this more voluntarily for my own good!

You could also simply make a quiet donation, for someone else's good :-)

[Marblehead]

So do you not link doing the "right" thing with having "good" morals? Are they really two different ball parks?

Yes, I believe they are two different concepts.

 

Doing the right thing stands on its own.

 

Morality is relative to time and place.

[dust]

Yes, I believe they are two different concepts.

 

Doing the right thing stands on its own.

 

Morality is relative to time and place.

 

Huh... so doing 'the right thing' is absolute? Good and Evil?

 

I may have mistaken your meaning..?

 

The way I see it, it's all the same. Morality, good, bad, right, wrong... like "time", "race", "ego", they're abstract concepts invented by us to make life easier. They must be relative; as creatures of which the very existence is relative to everything else, how are any ideas we have to be considered absolute?

[Rara]

Yes, I believe they are two different concepts.

 

Doing the right thing stands on its own.

 

Morality is relative to time and place.

Sounds like something we need to have a coffee over...typing this debate we will never reach the finish line.

[Marblehead]

Sounds like something we need to have a coffee over...typing this debate we will never reach the finish line.

Hehehe. You have a long, serious swim to do in order for us to have coffee here.

 

The finish line is when we attain an agreement. Of course, we would go into concepts unknown if we were to begin that journey here in this thread.

 

But yes, it is possible that we might not attain agreement. But at least we would have an understanding.

[Nungali]

HOLD EVERYTHING !

 

Dont do it !

 

Warning warning danger danger !

 

 

 

 

Do not do the ice bucket challenge (even if you dont agree one cant argue with the logic at the end

 

 

 

[Chang]

For those who may be interested in a little background knowledge of the subject.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Bucket_Challenge

[soaring crane]

Do not do the ice bucket challenge (even if you dont agree one cant argue with the logic at the end

 

 

well... in the wiki link Chang shared, we learn that the ice bucket shtick may have its roots in Salem. Ohmergawd! Satan's holiday destination! Ok, Salem, Indiana, but no matter. There has to be a tangential connection worth exploiting in there somewhere.

[Marblehead]

There has to be a tangential connection worth exploiting in there somewhere.

Not necessarily.