[Daeluin]

Poignancy is pre-eminent and precludes prevarication.

[deci belle]

…said the verbal recreationalist of inconsequential acts having persisted to the death without another place to go~ except as many other threads as possible in a given time by virtue of a psychological momentum based on words and ego alone.

 

Pathetic.

[Daeluin]

More attacking. Like I said, feel free. Why do you care so much about the surface level of my actions? I am exactly where I need to be, and your comments reach no true depth. Whatever you cut away at the surface means nothing to me, I don't need it, nor is that why I am here.

 

Why the need to violate the rules?

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, spam, obscene, profane, threatens or incites violence, invasive of a person's privacy, nor of denigrating and/or erotically suggestive avatars, signatures, links and pictures, or otherwise violative of any law.

 

I approached you with sincerity and respect, asking a question related to the topic of this thread. But you seem uninterested in an equal and civil sharing of the energy we have both contributed to this conversation, and I can only assume your attacks are a device to transform this sharing into a winner-loser type situation, where only one person retains freedom to go their way. At least this is my read on your approach to #17 - you still have not clarified the questions I asked about the contradictions regarding what is recommended in that post and what your behavior represents.

 

You speak of me being pathetic - but who is the one looking down on everyone else here? All in the tao is one - what gives you the right to act with such entitlement?

Edited September 7, 2014 by Daeluin

[beyonder]

Note to self: Don't get involved in things which don't involve you.

Edited September 7, 2014 by beyonder

[Apech]

--- Moderator Message ---

 

We have received a number of reports about this thread.

 

Deci as you know there is a no insult policy on this board. Calling people 'fatty' or 'pathetic' is insulting. Please stop doing this. Apart from anything else, whatever message you wish to deliver is getting lost because the insults become the focus. the moderation team are reviewing further action.

 

--- Message ends ---

[9th]

[Taomeow]

Ah, eloquent bullying! How deprived were we all of its multiple spiritual benefits in junior high, when all our resident bullies were tongue-tied and dumb and could only throw a pathetic physical punch in the face, not a verbal masterpiece! How refreshing, in the age of the internet forums, to finally find the bullying style we could only dream of experiencing when all our interactions with peers were in the flesh! Now that we all have discorporated (well... at least for purposes of online interactions...), its time has come. Have a blast of nostalgia and reminisce of the good old days when all you needed to know about life was, defer to the bully and you'll be safe! Now you don't even have to give him your lunch money, just your subservient comments (or a wide berth when the bully wants to make a speech you are deemed unworthy to comment on) and you'll be fine! It's like having your pre-puberty, new and improved, at your fingertips! Jolly good fun!

Edited September 7, 2014 by Taomeow

[thelerner]

There are brilliant prickly people I might question but never argue with. It'd be pointless and like the fabled chicken they often put out nuggets of gold.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

 

Ah yes, the joy of Roddy Piper in one of his finest roles.

[Taomeow]

There are brilliant prickly people I might question but never argue with. It'd be pointless and like the fabled chicken they often put out nuggets of gold.

 

Prickly, yes, many brilliant people are. Mean, no. It's basic alchemy. The moment the chicken who puts out nuggets of gold crosses the road to peck at another chicken (chickens have this horrible instinct, once they see a drop of blood on a peer, signifying injury and weakness, they will peck!) -- the moment he pecks at that vulnerable spot, his own nugget turns into chickenshit. A strange law of nature, this one is. But if it wasn't for this law, the gold-to-shit disintegration in the absence of humanity, smart evil would have prevailed everywhere and forever.

[liminal_luke]

I personally want no part of an enlightenment that isn't hitched to a good dose of compassion and good will. Calling people "fatties" simply serves no useful purpose.

 

Does the insult policy hold across the board for all bums, or do brilliant and/or realized people get a free pass?

 

Liminal

[Spotless]

This is a most difficult posting to enter into as so much of what is false in us is lit up like a torch in our spaces right now.

 

This has been a topic that has been poured over a great deal in recent weeks but they have all been well disguised.

 

The very name of this post is at least somewhat up front about the nature of what we are all heating up about. If we take the opportunity to realize it is during this heating that we can make a very real pivot we might be transformed in an instant.

 

Recently we saw the posting:

"Women & TTBs"

It was a study in everything we are working to drop in our illusion. The finest posts on the topic there were from those most embedded in their illusion, often by their abilities to clarify their positions and cement themselves so well along with others in them.

 

Breaking this habituation to this illusion is absolutely uncomfortable because the driver needs to relinquish its license to drive.

It is insane. Yet most drivers do not readily relinquish this license - at least not until it becomes clear they are a threat to themselves and their grandchildren - or they are locked up or die in an over the cliff incident.

 

Deci has the disgusting habit of complete none capitulation with false personality - and is a complete bastard in this regard.

From what I have seen, however side taking this may sound and seem and possibly be the case in the illusory reality, - it does not seem that this non-capitulation is ever engaged roughly with anything that is not false.

 

We can see many teachers which we all agree are of the highest quality even if we do not believe them, and all of them speak of the false personality as Insane, Monkey Mind, Nutcase, Delusional and more - but they are referring to someone other than us or they are referring to that part of us which we absolutely might choose to giggle at but god forbid actually confront or allow to be confronted.

 

Yet waking up from this sleep of our positions / judgements is what at least some of us are trying to do here - and some of us have succeeded with or we have had a glimpse of this preposterous driverless reality.

 

Much of what appears to be attacked is not being attacked because it cannot be attacked - it so completely is beyond attack because it does not exist - and as long as we live in the appearance of a response to what it reacts to - we have missed the opportunity.

 

I do not view Deci as one who is just posting here - he/she is steadfast in holding to a certain frequency in elucidating quite precisely the pivot point. Come in dousing it with with water and the water will be pointed out. Divert attention to basket weaving and the diversion will be pointed out. Argue in favor of basket weaving and that which is arguing in favor of basket weaving will be sliced and diced.

 

I have not seen well thought out conscious attempts at clarification met with rough handed reproach (but if I have missed any I am not interested in having them shown to me).

Deci is "ever enlightening" and so the responses might not embody either ours our his/her picture of perfection and patience.

But losing the gem in midstream to basket weaving and endless quotes from those that believe they are empowered by them, or "high" intellectual buttressing of our positions kills the gem in so many cases.

 

Most of the postings here are relatively mundane practice stuff - no denigration intended - it is in fact relatively mundane for this group at large. We are both helped and hindered in formulating and positioning - but we are playing with it and not completely asleep. Then we find here and there very fine threads or parts of threads where attention is needed to feel it because we cannot really see it plainly - it cannot be put into words yet that is what is being attempted - and a great many of us here have an automated reaction to this intensity. - it is to introduce basket weaving, puffery and quotes or to enter into a dialog in trance completely unaware that we are not even remotely in charge of the blither that is coming out of us (however orderly and well framed and perfectly punctuated).

 

What is the sound of one hand slapping?

Edited September 7, 2014 by Spotless

[soaring crane]

What is the sound of one hand slapping?

 

Swing and a miss.

 

The rules at this website are clear and infractions will be dealt with in future as objectively as possible. It matters not one iota if the insult comes from an enlightened being swinging the singing knife of complete reality or a knuckle-dragging troglodyte swinging a club with a nail in it.

[9th]

[Nungali]

 

 

Much of what appears to be attacked is not being attacked because it cannot be attacked - it so completely is beyond attack because it does not exist - and as long as we live in the appearance of a response to what it reacts to - we have missed the opportunity.

 

 

 

Mullah Nasruddin said similar once ... he copped a punch in the nose and the question " What hurts then?"

 

I suppose now I can break TTB rules and hurl insults at you ... as long as I only direct them at what I see as your non-existant appearances and reactions.

 

[3bob]

The T.T.C. may be seen as "puffery" by some but that is not my position nor that of many others at a Taoist web site with many other paths or variations allowed. Thus I'll offer chapter 24 for reflection:

 

"ONE on tip-toe cannot stand.
One astride cannot walk.
One who displays himself does not shine.
One who justifies himself has no glory.
One who boasts of his own ability has no merit.
One who parades his own success will not endure.
In Tao these things are called "unwanted food and
extraneous growths,"
Which are loathed by all things.
Hence, a man of Tao does not set his heart upon them".

Edited September 7, 2014 by 3bob

[Nungali]

Swing and a miss.

 

The rules at this website are clear and infractions will be dealt with in future as objectively as possible. It matters not one iota if the insult comes from an enlightened being swinging the singing knife of complete reality or a knuckle-dragging troglodyte swinging a club with a nail in it.

 

Thank you for saying that .... actually I have seen a bit of 'stuff' here under the guise of some type of 'right by enlightenment' BS.

 

Thats fair enough if you go and seek that type and sign up for what you think they have to offer ... but there is a type that walks around 'dispensing that type of wisdom' willy nilly under the guise of some type of obscure superiority.

 

I am glad it has been cleared up.

[Tibetan_Ice]

From "Natural Liberation" : Padmasambhava's Teachings on the Six Bardos by Padmasambhava

 

Remember, buddhas dont go around abusing people. They dont go around slandering or disdaining people. Thats simply not in their nature. When any of us are in the process of abusing, slandering or putting down another person, regardless of that other persons qualities, in that very act of abusing the other person, we are thereby revealing our own faults. The very acts of abuse, disdain, slander, and so forth are ways of revealing our own faults. If you squeeze a snake, its limbs, which otherwise remain hidden, will protrude. Likewise, as soon as we abusively put the squeeze on someone else, our own faults will protrude. As followers of the Buddha, it is inappropriate for us to continue with this tendency of abuse and slander. When we send out the arrows of contempt, the first person they strike is ourselves. Sharp words are like a two-edged sword. Thinking, I have a really good sword, you may raise up the saber of your speech, but as youre drawing it back to strike somebody else, its backside is cutting you in half.

 

[Nungali]

yeah ..... that says it a LOT better .... it says it wonderfully actually

 

it sings it !

 

There is the singing knife ... cutting through the BS that tries to hid contempt behind advancement.

 

Here is some advice from an old Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn document - on the development of the powers of the soul, regardless of opinions on source and validity, it might do well to examine it on its own merits (what it contains and says) :

 

" Yet, oh aspirant, let thy victories bring thee not Vanity, for with increase of Knowledge should come increase of Wisdom. He who knoweth little, thinketh he knoweth much; but he who knoweth much hath learned his own ignorance. Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of a fool, than of him.

 

" Be not hasty to condemn others; how knowest thou that in their place, thou couldest have resisted the temptation? And even were it so, why shouldst thou despise one who is weaker than thyself? "

 

{emphasis added}

Edited September 8, 2014 by Nungali

[deci belle]

When I slice, the blood squirts all the way straight up to heaven. There's nothing left of it.

 

That's why I say to forget it. You can be sure I do. Its use is endless. People simply cannot stop themselves.

 

People will either be able or unable to accept the certainty that the capacity of those with the will to enlightenment is the notion that living in the world though not of it is an excruciating free-fall of precision not admitting of one's own power in all situations by virtue of one's reality beyond belonging.

 

Inherent unity precludes the notion. Belonging is relative to an illusion of separateness.

 

Where wouldn't this no thing be? Your own mind is just aware nonbeing being your own eyeballs.

 

People are simply phantoms in a phantom world. I will never reach Ixtlan. There's nothing to know.

 

I'm already given away to unborn reality— there is nothing to capitulate. Ordinary people are otherwise.

 

There is no clinging emotionality for phantoms.

 

You cannot cling to this fundamentality of knowledge, therefore I have no notion of separateness to be separate from. It's all the same to me.

 

If you really see me in yourself, we're cool. What you recognize as knowledge in me is your own mind. Otherwise, I'm a 10,000 foot wall.

 

Get real yourself by seeing with open wonder and forget the personality issues, to work with what is and what isn't.

 

If you think I'm just sitting around getting off on myself, that's your mind too. See through it. I do, so without getting hung-up on it, I know what's real and unreal about you. Practice and enlightenment have no limit. Gone, gone, beyond gone, gone beyond… yet the endless has no distance. It's right now. If that's not where you're at, and you engage me with conventional speculative devices, I slice completely through without hesitating (after a short grace period). The most recent casualty had already been on my ignore list since last week.

 

 

 

 

ed note: add text below first line, tweak 10th and last line

Edited September 9, 2014 by deci belle

[C T]

...

 

...

Edited September 9, 2014 by C T

[Daeluin]

When I slice, the blood squirts all the way straight up to heaven. There's nothing left of it.

 

That's why I say to forget it. You can be sure I do. Its use is endless. People simply cannot stop themselves.

 

 

Momentum is an interesting phenomenon. Perhaps db slices true, and affects an energetic slicing clean through the dirt of non-reality straight to the void. But does she stick around to maintain this? No. As momentum rolls along, the emptiness is filled based on details of the previous inertia, and is unlikely to result in further emptiness.

 

Instead we get what we see here all the time. Chaos, frustration, emotion. Sure, all of these things are temporal, but I see db's methodology resulting in pushing people away from the path, rather than being helpful.

 

People will either be able or unable to accept the certainty that the capacity of those with the will to enlightenment is the notion that living in the world though not of it is an excruciating free-fall of precision not admitting of one's own power in all situations by virtue of one's reality beyond belonging.

 

Inherent unity precludes the notion. Belonging is relative to an illusion of separateness.

 

Where wouldn't this no thing be? Your own mind is just aware nonbeing being your own eyeballs.

 

People are simply phantoms in a phantom world. I will never reach Ixtlan. There's nothing to know.

 

I'm already given away to unborn reality— there is nothing to capitulate. Ordinary people are otherwise.

 

There is no clinging emotionality for phantoms.

 

You cannot cling to this fundamentality of knowledge, therefore I have no notion of separateness to be separate from. It's all the same to me.

 

You apparent refusal to relinquish your violence upon others is certainly clinging to something.

 

If you really see me in yourself, we're cool. What you recognize as knowledge in me is your own mind. Otherwise, I'm a 10,000 foot wall.

 

Yes, I do. And thus I have no desire to do violence upon you. We are already one; why would I seek division within? My posting has been one of intended harmonization, and I do not welcome the support of those who would rather push db away.

 

Get real yourself by seeing with open wonder and forget the personality issues, to work with what is and what isn't.

 

Whatever your inner reality, you must face that the outer reality is beyond your control. These personality issues regularly cause results that undermine your teachings, and it is surprising to me that you do not see this.

 

If you think I'm just sitting around getting off on myself, that's your mind too. See through it.

 

I see through it to a person who remains detached and unaffected by the outside environment. I see through it to a person who identifies as being separate from this "illusory" external environment and can only be separate from it. I see this as a polarity preventing this person from developing further - ALL polarities much be dissolved, or you will not shatter the emptiness.

 

I do, so without getting hung-up on it, I know what's real and unreal about you.

 

There are many ways to be hidden. What is obviously pointed out on the surface many not be true of the core. Those of greater development will be invisible to you, even though you may judge them by what they allow others to see. Real and Unreal do not define a person; the momentum and changing of real and unreal throughout their entire journey defines this. You may be able to look far through time, but you cannot with 100% accuracy predict how that person will change.

 

By thinking that seeing what is real and unreal in a person means you know them and have the right to judge them is only going to invite clash. You are getting in your own way here, even though you do not attach to your judgments, they still attach karma to your emptiness.

 

Practice and enlightenment have no limit. Gone, gone, beyond gone, gone beyond… yet the endless has no distance. It's right now. If that's not where you're at, and you engage me with conventional speculative devices, I slice completely through without hesitating (after a short grace period).

 

If there are no limits, why do you speak in absolutes? Why do you cause division when your aim is the infinite?

 

The most recent casualty had already been on my ignore list since last week.

 

Taoism believes all life is sacred. We do not desire for there to be casualties, and we ever allow possibility to exist among what other beliefs would term suffering. Thus we do not allow polarization to rule us and separate us from the infinite. We do this by not building ourselves up, and following what is low, even as we soar above on what is great. All is one, and any separation must defend itself, as ultimately it too will be dissolved.

[3bob]

Daeluin,

 

I'd say nobel attempts at shrinking (or lecture) is still shrinking and unless an individual is ready and asking for it then even that can be in vain, although at least it was a try. (some methods can make things worse - thus there are more ways than one way)

 

that's the end of my shrinking

Edited September 9, 2014 by 3bob

[Nungali]

Perhaps db slices true, and affects an energetic slicing clean through the dirt of non-reality straight to the void.

 

 

Perhaps ...

 

Perhaps slicing has become habitual ..... one is uncomfortable with something or about something or cant accept the position 'life' put one in (errrmmm, that's usually for a good reason ... unless everything is happenstance) then .... just slice it off.

 

I would have thought a bit of TCM might be more appropriate than a western surgical approach?

Edited September 9, 2014 by Nungali

[9th]

From "Natural Liberation" : Padmasambhava's Teachings on the Six Bardos by Padmasambhava

 

Sharp words are like a two-edged sword.

 

 

 

Thing is, Padmasambhava is one of the key players in the Upaya scene. The story of his meeting with the emperor of Tibet comes to mind.

 

This topic just isnt gonna be accessible for the large majority of people. Lets go ahead and resurrect the term "esoteric", because teachings of, about, and using "skillful means" (in the classical sense) are not a mainstream thing. Its really not compatible with most people in a general sense because it hinges so heavily on timing a great number of factors, a feat which requires great proficiency to accomplish. Im not talking about the "reimagined" modern idea of it, or some kind of quaint new-age reboot. To really pierce the ground level reality, "bridge the sky" or "nail it down" as it were - requires a totality of no-self, along with a great deal of experience in leveraging it socially.

 

A handful of jackass gurus really already ruined people for this back in the 70s and 80s. However, it had to happen that way considering the state of our society and the ineptitude of those attempting to put it in practice. So we can thank them for getting that kind of debacle out of the way for us already. And accordingly it has soured a great many others up to this day on the topic, so that the very idea is already tainted to begin with.

 

So now concepts of Upaya have this kind of negative publicity and historical baggage in a modern context. Honestly, to really proceed with this technique - its for the best. It was esoteric back in ancient times for a reason. And its the same reason it will live on esoterically in our present era.

 

I can also say that in terms of cutting things to the bone, is not something that should be done more than very rarely. To achieve a productive result requires a number of windows to align, and in my experience most people arent there yet. I wish it was required all the time, as that would be a sign we'd be reaching utopia quite soon - where everyone would be on the same page already. Alas, its almost never required because almost nobody is ready for it, out in the general public. Inside a small group of dedicated practitioners, it may be a totally different story - but this forum aint that.