Is TTB a safe place to post?

[dawei]

The title is actually a topic (actually spanning many threads) which has been discussed at length for more than a year among the staff.

 

 

The staff has discussed over a year such issues as:

1. Is TTB a safe place to post?
2. Members complain they can’t post without fear of attacks by very specific people or hijacking of the thread or off-topic de-railing or trolling or mis-information or elitist telling them they are inferior, etc.
3. Members who persist in the above actions.
4. “The no-insult policy is not enough at the scale ttb has grown.” – founding admin
5. The need for moderating “beyond the rules”. – past admin
6. A “moderator prerogative” to act alone and then discuss as a group any further action or reversal of action.
7. An “admin prerogative”. As stated in the Three Foundations: “The admin also has broad discretion to protect the civility and resources of any aspect within TTBs e-community.”

 

With the recent topics of racism, the women’s cultivation area, and those suspended/banned over the last several months, it appears that all of the above topics continue to be a concern. Although these do show the passion that people can have on issues, ultimately the staff is charged to ensure that TTB is a safe and welcoming place for a diverse community of ideas.

 

After becoming admin, I have generally allowed all suspensions to end early; allowed at least one banned member back. Anyone suspended or banned is free to contact me as I will judge if there is a chance for change and whether it aligns with our oversight of TTB. But I have also looked for ways to tighten up the growing concern of issues. There is less tolerance on some issues.

 

The moderation team has prerogative to act faster to lock or hide threads, move topics, split/pit without other’s agreement. In such a case, that moderator generally has the ‘lead’ on the issue. But some of these do need notification to staff of the action and some will require discussion to uphold or reverse the action. In some cases, staff only voice their opinion and the ‘lead’ mod can make the final decision.

 

In general I want faster action to occur… but I know some question whether this happening from the reports they send to staff. I can tell you that while mods are generally trying to stay out of the back-and-forth they do take any report seriously. I know historically that reports feel like they are dropped into a TTB vacuum and just disappear; Most every report gets several comments posted which is an indication (to me) that the staff discusses most every report.

 

We’ve just re-shuffled the staff again. Those who have been on staff in the past know the good, the bad, and the ugly. Varying opinions are needed on the same issue but can result in difficult decision making and make consensus very difficult. One can feel very strong about taking action with no others agreeing; or the action desired ranges from 2 weeks to a ban; and where is the middle ground on that? In any case, there is lots of discussion and even compromise at times.

 

The staff is not perfect... we are but human and we try our best to work together to maintain a healthy and welcoming community. I understand that our decisions will not please everyone but our hope is that you find TTB a place you want to come back to.

[RiverSnake]

What strategies can be applied by the TTB staff in order create a more harmonious and drama free environment on the site?

 

This is the question i asked the cards, the cards I drew and the answers I divined:

 

-7 of Swords

-Son of Swords

-5 of Cups

 

Seven.....beware of the gathering of swords. Notice the symptoms of offensive threads before it actually goes catatonic. This can be as simple as looking at the title of the thread (is it divisive in nature?)....how many pages it's gone on for......the longer the thread the more potential for trolling and offensive behavior.....and the member whom actually started it....does he have a history of divisive behavior.....if so awareness should be brought to the potential situation that may unfold before the mudslinging even begins to manifest on the surface.....notice the bubbling at the well....before it can take root.

 

Son of Swords....hover above the situation and observe ongoing potential threads. Do not hesitate to swoop in a take pre-emptive action such as basic warnings regarding the nature of the thread. Act aggressively, accurately and intelligently in moderating dialogue. Stay focused and on-course.

 

5 of Cups....despair, depression, sorrow, doubt, hate, regret, bitterness and broken cups (relationships). These are all emotions that can cultivate in corrupted and hateful threads and result in the loss of many members of TTB. They are also feelings that can bruise staff members.

 

Having a history of feeling these feelings as a staff member can also inhibit the ability to take correct actions in the future do to still feeling the cuts and bruises of the past and not wanting to risk experiencing the again. Know thyself, observe and feel when these emotions are cultivating in threads on the forum as well as within oneself.

 

 

-I still am somewhat amateurish in my divinatory ability, but that's what I was able to draw from the cards and the overall situation. Hope it is potentially helpful.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited September 5, 2014 by OldChi

[gendao]

What strategies can be applied by the TTB staff in order create a more harmonious and drama free environment on the site?

 

This is the question i asked the cards, the cards I drew and the answers I divined:

 

-7 of Swords

-Son of Swords

-5 of Cups

Interesting, what did you base your interpretations on...as they don't seem to match the standard ones?

The Seven of Swords is a card of deception and betrayal. It indicates the difficulty of trying to ‘get away with something’ undetected and unnoticed.

The Seven of Swords indicates that you may be tempted to sneak away from a particular situation that is not working for you any more, rather than dealing with it head on. As you do not feel ready to deal with the issues, you are aiming for a solution where you can just escape and not have to worry about it all. Are you trying to run away from commitment, responsibility, hard work or love?

Even if you have managed to go undetected, be aware that in the long run, deception will not produce the rewards you desire and may instead cause significant damage to your relationships and reputation. Consider taking a more ethical and morally balanced approach to life from here on.

On the flipside, the Seven of Swords asks you to be very cautious and wary so that you do not become a victim of someone else’s deception, betrayal, cheating and false motives. You may trust someone who then turns out to be running their own agenda, leaving you high and dry.

Look out for any sneaky behaviour and trust your gut instinct about when something does not feel right or is too good to be true.

Sometimes, the Seven of Swords indicates a desire to go it alone. You want to discover, investigate and solve every problem using only your own wits and resources. You may believe that you have a better chance at success if you act on your own accord, ignoring the advice or inputs of others. This approach is useful when you need to bypass an ineffectual group or assert your independence but it can also have its limitations. You may end up feeling isolated and excluded, missing that great feeling of collaboration and synergy gained when you work with others. If you feel inclined to act alone, be sure this isolation will really work for you.

Son of Swords - Fairness

A positive masculine leader. Extremely brave and forceful. Always using his mind to find innovative solutions to everyday problems. Rules with an even hand. Is just as likely to use the whip as the prospect of reward to motivate others. He is supported by his community. Can be considered avant-garde in his approach to problems. His ability to see things differently is one of his great strengths. Bubbling over with new ideas. Seeking balance in all things. A true hero. Events moving quickly. An honest crusader.

Be strong in your beliefs, but gentle in relaying that message to others. Everything in life must have a balance and with that you can be strong in guiding others with a soft heart without being overrun. Take the time to see what is around you and how you can help others without forcing them to bend to your rule. Show them your heart.

The Five of Cups suggests that you are having trouble letting go of the past and learning from your mistakes. This card can often reflect a person who is caught up in the past and unable to move on, missing out on new opportunities. Bitter memories from the past continue to bother you, and often a great deal of the blame for past actions is placed on yourself and your inadequacies.

Forgiveness and the ability to recover after emotional loss are necessary. If you are feeling disappointed by another person’s actions, and then find it within your heart to forgive that person, releasing yourself from the disappointment. You may also need to re-assess your expectations that have led you to this disappointment. Were you expecting too much?

Remember, too, that hindsight is much clearer than foresight and present-day wisdom is gained from the mistakes of the past. Reflect on what lead you to this point and understand what important lessons you can take from the experience.

Or using the Yijing, "How should TTB best be moderated or governed?"

Your reading resulted in the following hexagrams:

51 changing to 3

 

Hexagram 51, Shock

 

Key Questions

What must change?

What will continue?

 

Oracle

‘Shock, creating success.

Shock comes, fear and terror.

Laughing words, shrieking and yelling.

Shock spreads fear for a hundred miles.

Someone does not lose the sacred ladle and libation.’

 

Shock is something that stirs, rouses and shakes you up – like an earthquake, or a violent thunderstorm. In ancient China, Heaven spoke through thunder, and this was an omen that the human world was to be brought back into harmony. Abruptly, your world is not working as you expect; the solid ground shifts under your feet, security slips away and mental constructs shatter; living reality has spoken.

Shock spreads out in waves of contagious fear and hysteria. Suddenly everyone is all too closely in touch with their own emotions – and with everyone else’s – and all are reacting to one another. It is a time to hold on to what you most value, and take on responsibility for keeping it safe through the upheaval, like the priest who is charged with safeguarding the temple and altars from the past, for the future. Consider what remains constant and true when everything else is in turmoil. This doesn’t necessarily mean resisting the shock itself, so much as keeping a still point in the midst of the tumult of reactions to it. Then you never lose your connection with the creative power that speaks through the storms.

 

Image

Shock follows from Hexagram 50, the Vessel:

‘In the charge of the sacred vessel, none equals the eldest son, and so Shock follows. Shock means new beginnings.’

 

Pair

Shock forms a pair with Hexagram 52, Stilling:

‘Shock begins; Stilling stops.’

 

Changing Lines

Line 4

‘Shock, and then a bog.’

 

Line 5

‘Shock goes and comes, danger.

Intention is not lost – there are things to do.’

 

Hexagram 3, Sprouting

 

Key Questions

What is beginning?

Where is the growing centre, and where can you find help for it?

 

Oracle

‘Sprouting.

From the source, creating success, constancy bears fruit.

Don’t use this to have a direction to go,

Fruitful to establish feudal lords.’

 

Sprouting is the very beginning: a growing centre, putting out roots into the unknown and breaking through the hard soil. Inner life reaches out into the world, experiencing resistance for the first time. The creative drive of heaven and earth joins together and grows. It’s tiny, scarcely born, but burgeoning with life and a great desire to attain full growth.

It’s far too early yet to narrow all the possibilities down to a single destination. Just as a plant sends out roots in all directions, a new ruler needs to set up a network of feudal lords. These are an image for helpers, human or otherwise: everything that brings you support and expands your sphere of awareness and influence. In exploring all possibilities, you enrich and strengthen the centre as growth begins.

 

Image

‘Clouds, thunder: Sprouting.

A noble one weaves warp and weft.’

 

Sequence

‘There is heaven and earth, and so the ten thousand things are born.

Overflowing the space between heaven and earth, the ten thousand things.

And so Sprouting follows: Sprouting means filling to overflowing;

Sprouting means the beginning of things’ birth.’

 

Pair

Sprouting forms a pair with Hexagram 4, Not Knowing:

‘Sprouting: seeing, and not letting go your dwelling place.

Not knowing: disordered and also clear.’

[soaring crane]

Surreal... How about your opinions on the OP? Thx

[Apech]

TBs is a conversation between a varied group of people with a shared interest in Taoism and cultivation generally. To become a member there are some hurdles to prove that you are genuine and not a sock puppet or a spammer but other wise the membership is open. Anyone who wants to join, can join. You have to sign up to the rules ... which I see as 'no insult plus' - which goes beyond just expletives directed at others to include belittling and denigrating others. Then there is something else, what I see as a safety net, the proviso against denigrating other life styles, gender, race and so on. In the past this has been in the background to prevent the board falling into extreme racism, misogyny and so on. Its never been the main focus of moderation but really just a restraint on the worst threads which usually end up in the Pit. Its probably not enough as has been suggested recently and some want the mod team to be stronger on this. But there is a problem.

 

If you were to go into the high street of where ever you live and drag in 100 people and ask them questions, you would get 100 different views on race and gender equality. Some racist, some not, some unexamined received values and so on. Then tell those 100 people to all chat with each other as they wish. If you listen in then you will hear some things you don't like. So the question is at what point to you step in and chuck some of those people out? And what is the purpose of doing this? Is it better to stop conversations which veer into racism or is it better to let the other speakers convince them that the views they hold are wrong, only acting if it gets really nasty? Is dialogue part of the solution? Or part of the problem?

 

TBs moderation has never been based on content because we do not want to censor content. It has been based on conduct. To make TBs 'safe' do we need to moderate more on content? Should we be editing posts which go beyond what's held acceptable or not? And what about disputes over systems and practice? Should we be stepping in where this happens? Should the sub forums, Taoist and Buddhist be more strictly moderated? Do you want us to filter, sort and control ideas freely expressed? And at what point does this turn into a 'Nanny State' where the moderators have a watching brief to steer, direct and control the conversations?

 

We moderate mostly by consent. Most people when asked will self edit and also check their own posts for rule breaks before posting. This is because they generally accept the rules and the need for them, or at least acknowledge the need to have some rules for intelligent conversation. So the TBs membership really need to decide where the lines are drawn.

[RiverSnake]

Surreal... How about your opinions on the OP? Thx

 

Didn't really understand or have any idea as too the best strategy moving forward for TTB. When I don't understand a situation, I do a divination for insight. Also it's just cool because I get the opportunity to practice.

 

My 2 cents, Practice

[C T]

Its always easier to choose maintenance of the familiar over choosing to maintain awareness of constant change.

 

Not that one is better or worse, rather, its the comfort zones that differs. The former can be quite hypnotic, and usually means that stagnation, lulls and limitations comes as the price, while the latter often means expansive uncertainty, which is what growth is all about. Growth is neither good nor bad, it is simply what it is. Uncertainties are bound like a promise within the process, and learning to adapt without reacting or attaching emotional hooks to the conditions of the process seems like what being on top of change means.

 

We can take each and weigh the values, not in dualistic terms of which is better, or worse, but in tandem with the vision and priorities of TTB. This brings the goal into view, without which the guidelines and focus gets lost among the pettiness which are usually part and parcel of any group dynamic where those who have been assigned to lead do so with misplaced determinations and motives, giving cause for hair-line confusions to seep into the template, which over time, accumulates to weaken the very foundation of the group in question.

 

Leadership accountability comes before consensus. When that accountability is seen as determined and solid, confidence follows; when there is confidence, there is security; feeling secure, harmony follows. Where there is harmony, petty thoughts and words will not have room to fester. In time, these will simply dissipate, like vapours in the desert heat. This is a principle that can be seen working in any unit, be it in the family, in the community, in commercial enterprises, in the wider society, and so on.

 

This accountability is gradually becoming more apparent here, which is a step in the right direction. There is more to be done, surely, but actions have to bear the hallmarks of strong leadership, or else, it will remain just a flurry of seeming busyness and hyperactivity, compounded by individualism and personal agendas.

 

 

my thoughts. take it for what its worth.

[Spotless]

Overall the TTBs is impressive in pretty much all respects. It is also better than it used to be as far as people running rough shod over the forums.

 

I would say that the only thing I see that sometimes surprises me is watching a mod or someone with a TTBs title entertaining a person that "is having probems with self control or self righteousness" by constantly entering into a dialog with them while most on the post are not responding to that person.

 

I do not respond even once to a vinegarette voice and promptly put them on my ignore prefs - it is then interesting to watch these adolescents being reacted to page after page with absolutely no content in the reply other than continued redirection to sanity which continues to be interpreted by them as validation that they are still engaged with someone even though the engagement is truely nothing but noise and wall pounding and paternal redirection.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Spotless

[dogson]

I'm practicing a lot of Ho'oponopono right now - "What is it within me that's causing these people to lash out?" etc. Taking a hard line against the haters never really works... I'm in favor of radical forgiveness. <3

[tendou]

i won't call TTB dangerous but, honestly, this board suffer heavily from lack of technicality. Some people post their experience, some technical opinion/info they get lambasted , lots of dancing around by the lambaster, calling people not smart while telling everyone that they are mensa certified, honestly? All the while some people protecting the lambaster complimenting them, saying that they are good because they say what's on their mind. It's quite entertaining but if you repeat them ad infinitum this behavior could be a bit boring. Some people might like it though.

 

I was astonished that trunks post a few threads back about deep centre are safe from all of these dancing and prancing around behaviour. That there are still post like that in TTB? And it is safe from ridicule and not derailed? Mind boggling. Maybe too technical for the lambasting team?

 

dawei, I think you're doing what you can and it is an exhausting job. TTB will become what TTB will become.

[soaring crane]

Overall the TTBs is impressive in pretty much all respects. It is also better than it used to be as far as people running rough shod over the forums.

 

I would say that the only thing I see that sometimes surprises me is watching a mod or someone with a TTBs title entertaining a person that "is having probems with self control or self righteousness" by constantly entering into a dialog with them while most on the post are not responding to that person.

 

I do not respond even once to a vinegarette voice and promptly put them on my ignore prefs - it is then interesting to watch these adolescents being reacted to page after page with absolutely no content in the reply other than continued redirection to sanity which continues to be interpreted by them as validation that they are still engaged with someone even though the engagement is truely nothing but noise and wall pounding and paternal redirection.

 

I'm absolutely on your wavelength here, brother.

[soaring crane]

dawei, I think you're doing what you can and it is an exhausting job. TTB will become what TTB will become.

 

This is a good place to point out and stress that the admin work here is voluntary. I've been helping out with the lobby/membership requests for a little while now and just recently got slotted into the 'concierge' designation. I see myself as a guest who volunteered to clear the table and rinse off the dishes after dinner at a friend's house. I committed myself to a task, out of appreciation for the effort the host put into arranging the dinner, but I'm still a guest and will make sure I ask for instructions before putting the dishes away (hmmm, that metaphor is apparently not as random as I'd first thought -- I've been married to the same woman for 28 years, meaning I've had the same M-I-L for just as long. Those in a similar situation will understand, haha).

 

So, that's my attitude toward this community, and every online community I've ever belonged to; it's someone else's house and being here is a privilege, not a right. The doors aren't locked, it's not a prison, I can go out into the world any time I choose, and leave the other person's house alone. For me, this is nature. This is self-evident. This is Dao.

 

And that's why two posts above (from Spotless and tendou) struck a deep chord in me. Maybe my provincial life in sleepy northern Bavaria is distorting my perspective (for the better) but regardless of the cause, it's a jolt to my system every time a clearly disruptive, aggressive post a) appears and is b ) responded to with anything other than a strict mod warning.

 

As I said, I'm not about to take any kind of action that falls outside the accepted protocol, but were it left to me (purely hypothetical because it won't ever be), the moderation style would be more draconian, impersonal and immediate. Not because I have tyrannical tendencies but because I feel it's the most effective way to guarantee the best, and safest, in the spirit of Dawei's OP, experience for the largest number of guests/members.

[Taoist Texts]

As I said, I'm not about to take any kind of action that falls outside the accepted protocol, but were it left to me (purely hypothetical because it won't ever be), the moderation style would be more draconian, impersonal and immediate. Not because I have tyrannical tendencies but because I feel it's the most effective way to guarantee the best, and safest, in the spirit of Dawei's OP, experience for the largest number of guests/members.

Of course. Thats what every tyrant says: Its for the benefit of the people!

[thelerner]

. TTB will become what TTB will become.

All hail TTB..

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

no, ttb is not a safe place to post. you will lose a finger if you click 'post' and you will be exposed to dangerous, painfully harmful, damaging personalities like mine. i would not advise it.

[9th]

TBs moderation has never been based on content because we do not want to censor content.

 

[Daeluin]

Given the consumerist nature of most countries with leisurely access to the internet, it is no surprise when people are easily side-tracked by tangents, and react to hooks in other's words. These things easily divert the flow of the conversation from the OP, and can be frustrating. But also these types of impulsive posts can carry emotion.

 

It's hard to say what type of response a particular post may generate, and often discussions revolve around the very root of something. This will likely to open portals for people into deeper layers, and it's hard to say what might be a trigger for others, or what in our own words has too much bias.

 

With age and experience comes maturity and wisdom, but often at the cost of adaptability. Even those whose communication is very sophisticated, and who carefully hone their words to be as non-reactive as possible, cannot always hope to avoid pushing against someone else's very differing perspectives and boundaries.

 

But often it seems the wise will avoid responding to reactionary posts, and simply ignore that poster. I see the trouble coming when someone feels hurt by such a post, and does engage in the polarity... usually the polarity will only maintain itself.

 

deci belle wrote a very interesting post last night on the exchange of energy in conversation, and how simply letting go and ignoring a poster is akin to capitulating. While I don't think it is as black and white as this, I do feel this raises an interesting point that is often overlooked, and invites a deeper journey into how energy trades hands here.

 

I've very clearly felt this exchange, and on both sides. Often I imagine it is what triggers others to reach out to the staff in the first place. On the defeated or attacked side, if you don't reply appropriately, the attacker will take the bulk of the energy created by the polarity, and leaving one feeling somewhat deflated with a sense of injustice. On the other hand, if you happen to "win" such an exchange, you may feel a boost of energy coming from nowhere. I've been learning to recognize this, as it isn't something I want - I aim for a balanced exchange. But some here do seem to engage others head on in a winner takes all exchange, never giving up their position. Is having a rigid position a bad thing? If you are the OP with such a position, is it OK to unwaveringly defend any who attempt to challenge this position, when challenge is unwelcome in the first place? Or is it only bad when someone drops in and starts calling people wrong and it isn't even their thread? In either case many unsuspecting people spend effort at sharing with others who have no intention of bending, and they end up feeling drained at the end.

 

I can see this causing others to feel unsafe. But can we say these members are in the wrong, even if their actions repeatedly cause friction? Some may not start it, but invite it - are they wrong? Some may start it, but with the intention of going deeper and cutting through confusion - are they wrong? Or is it not wrong in the beginning, but wrong when it starts to get out of hand?

 

Is there anything that can be done to help educate new posters in the art of posting, or is this too subtle to expect that will make much difference? Often new members won't be prepared by the full spectrum of perspective from which others will read their words, and will be surprised and maybe even shocked by what their words trigger.

 

These are just my thoughts. I've only been posting here a few months, so I'm sure I've missed quite a bit. Several times I've heard old hands say how much better things have become. I think some well written suggestions for new members could be helpful, but that safe is a very relative term, and it is likely joining any internet forum is going to open one's eyes a bit. That said, I feel this is a very great place to post, and that there is much more compassion being shared by this community than there is force. Thank you, all of you who work so hard behind the scenes to help keeps things running so smoothly!

Edited September 6, 2014 by Daeluin

[GrandmasterP]

If it aint broke don't fix it.

TTB is OK.

Mods do a good job.

There'll always be some degree of friction on any forum.

We get by though.

 

Edited September 6, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[BaguaKicksAss]

Everytime I get an email notification of a new post in a thread I'm following which contains a link; it starts out with the right link, then the forums somehow auto-send it to this link: http://thetaobums.com/topic/64-reprinted-from-dontmarrycom/#entry160

[Marblehead]

Maybe it's some kind of special message for you?

[soaring crane]

Everytime I get an email notification of a new post in a thread I'm following which contains a link; it starts out with the right link, then the forums somehow auto-send it to this link: http://thetaobums.com/topic/64-reprinted-from-dontmarrycom/#entry160

 

that is weird. Is that like one of the first threads ever at this website?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

forget it.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[C T]

Those keen to understand group behaviour will find the Law of Pragnanz quite useful.

[soaring crane]

Of course. Thats what every tyrant says: Its for the benefit of the people!

 

well, real tyrants need to mask themselves as non-tyrants who actually do care about the community at large, don't they? It doesn't follow that someone who says he wants cold objectivity in moderating an internet forum has tyrannical motivations. It could be that he actually does want to do his best for most people, full in the knowledge that he's not perfect and that there will always be the occasional skeptic among the membership

[Jetsun]

This site is fine. The only suggestion I would make would be for members to take responsibility for themselves and stop projecting all their parental and power issues onto the mods, this is just my general observation over time not directed at anyone in particular.