SebastianBernadinoDaRosa Posted September 8, 2014 Hello! I would like to know how the use of alcohol and drugs affects ones ability to cultivate. Any and all comments are welcome with an open mind and an empty cup. Thank you! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted September 8, 2014 I've arrived at a point where I recognize that anything which can cause or elicit a response, either physiological or psychological act like a drug and thus affect my awareness. The results are as myriad as the sources. Some appear beneficial, some reductive. All are effective at affecting. A few from my list the typical herbs/plants, fermentations.booze, chemicals, synthesized compounds sex/flirtation performing/speaking in front of crowds being around dynamic people free rock climbing/sky diving/daredevil pursuits arguments extremely spicy food without a doubt the strongest experiential drug-like experience I've ever had was during pranayama breathing. life itself is a drug, but here I've already derailed you a bit, so in answer to your question I'll say. As it stands for the cultural definition of 'drugs': my take is, for some they may be beneficial to their process, for others reductive, only you will know for certain, in my experience. This may change throughout life as well... there are many things that I know are no longer beneficial for me in my 40's that were highly productive for me in my 20's... peace. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
woodcarver Posted September 8, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure if it hinders you. What I have noticed is that what I liked in drinking/drugs is also found in cultivation. I just don't think the middle-man is necessary. Edited September 8, 2014 by woodcarver Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted September 8, 2014 (edited) What matters here are things like the type of drug, amounts, frequency of intake, circumstances (in what kind of place and with what kind of people are you?) and your condition. I.e., a moderate amount of alcohol every now and then are probably not detrimental. While big amounts of this or another substance may temporarily open up a door, this comes at a fairly high price, especially if done frequently. Receptivity levels to psychotropic substances drop quite quickly, so frequent intake actually destroys the exhilarating experience, and the thing becomes a mere bad habit. What's bad for your chi and health (especially the nerve system including the brain cells) is also detrimental to true cultivation. There is also the issue that many psychedelic substances, if used unwisely, weaken your aura toward negative influences. So I suggest that you limit the application of any kind of psychotropic substances to special "celebrations", make sure that these are taking place in a positive setting, and take your time to ground yourself afterwards. Your focus should certainly be on more valuable ways to access the inner dimensions. Taking drugs excessively looks like a convenient shortcut to some, but eventually it's a blind alley. Edited September 8, 2014 by Michael Sternbach 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anoesjka Posted September 8, 2014 Alcohol is definitely detrimental to my meditation practice, it unsettles my activated K energy. Drugs I don't dare to take anymore, often my hallucinations are dopey enough without them. I did do a lot of pot in my teens and some shrooms too, but I can't say they have anything to offer me now. I considered the use of ayahuasca though, but my hubbie won't let me. When you're activated, you become much more sensitive to all kinds of influences. The weather, food, music, moods of other people, stress, caffeine, full moon, you name it. (Doing drugs would be like literally hitting a raw nerve for me) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dogson Posted September 8, 2014 In my early teens substances were useful, because they gave me a reference point for consciousness. A fish doesn't know it's in water unless it leaps out for a second. In my 20's, weed especially was useful because it "supercharged" my chi, thus letting me see what was really possible. This inspired me to train a lot harder and for longer periods of time. Ultimately everything is a tool to show you your own mind and body. As many have said, you don't need any of it. But I personally believe we're ATTRACTED to certain things specifically because they are useful. IE, I was really into weed for a long time, but I've never touched anything like cocaine. I intuitively knew where the line was. And ultimately, a tool can lose its usefulness. I don't smoke anymore. I drink coffee every so often (with a ton of herbs mixed in) just to see what a jolt of caffeine does to my mind and creativity. Usually I find myself doing deep breathing into my tan tien. Or walking around making epic eye contact with people, sharing my energy and presence. Or writing voraciously. It's good to keep a few key activities on tap... this was the main thing I noticed about "non-cultivator" friends who I used to smoke with. They didn't have any plan, or desire to use that surge in energy for anything. They were only doing it because they felt trapped by their ordinary conscious mind, but didn't think they were capable of ever changing it. That fundamental disempowered mindset is what creates addicts... it's not the compulsion or habit to use a substance per se. It's fundamentally believing that you aren't capable of changing your state at will. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
9th Posted September 8, 2014 without a doubt the strongest experiential drug-like experience I've ever had was during pranayama breathing. Compared to what, exactly? Have you tried DMT? Peyote? Ayahuasca? Ibogaine? Ketamine? PCP? Crack? Your statement needs more context. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted September 8, 2014 (edited) processing alcohol consumes a lot of qi. the time I blew up (via alcohol consumption, not concurrent with practicing, just to be clear) what I created I was rather surprised and a bit pissed off about that. long party weekend 4th of july years back, thursday my breaths were a minute fifteen, monday, hell if I could do 25 seconds. and there I discovered that a lot of breath duration is quite intimately linked to the gong built in the dantien. and that's not even addressing the need for focus while doing meditative practices... one's mind should not wander while in meditation. Edited September 8, 2014 by joeblast 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted September 8, 2014 one's mind should not wander while in meditation. In my backyard, it says wandering is fine, as long as i know its wandering. Then i can indulge if i choose without losing the plot. If there is awareness, then one learns to manage distractions without the associated pangs. When faced with temporary bouts of anxiety brought on by uncertainties, not sure if what one is doing is on the ball or not, and devoid of an appropriate spiritual friend, naturally, the mind and body will demand assurances from convenient avenues, of which hallucinogens and alcohol readily belong. The problem encountered by some is not being able to befriend the mind when it wanders. They beat themselves up, due to books and others saying that focus is the key. It is the key, but some do not realise this key opens not one but two doors -- that of clear seeing (unwavering focus), and another of spacious awareness. It is in spacious awareness that one can allow imagination and visualization to spontaneously occur. This is an important point, to alternate between directing the mind in concentration, and abiding in relaxed awareness. Gradually, with correct practice, these two doors do become one. Union is reached, and all practice can be put aside. At that time, one can choose to have a celebratory drink or two... in full awareness. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiForce Posted September 8, 2014 Hehehe...I drink some beer once in a while. I don't take drugs. Others need drugs to induce their hmmmmm...experiences or the MCO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted September 8, 2014 which is the worst possible "way to do it" since accelerants artificially flare energy centers and the phenomena that result are not borne of practice fundamentals. if you "open your mco" on drugs then you are hallucinating. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted September 8, 2014 (edited) Whatever caffeine is in good tea is drug enough for anyone. Booze is Satan's buttermilk and only losers or the soon to be lost ever take recreational pharmaceuticals. Edited September 8, 2014 by GrandmasterP Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aboo Posted September 8, 2014 (edited) In terms of alcohol, I guess it depends how much you drink. The odd beer or glass of wine won't have much of an effect. However, in my experience, if you drink heavily it won't help you cultivate. Alcohol is a depressant, and the more you drink the more chance of a negative mental state. You will end up behaving in ways you may regret, and it's an extra hurdle to jump. For many years I'd meet up with old school friends, and it was always at the pub. While it was nice to meet with old friends, I think the cons outweighed the pros from my experience. It can also become a routine that is hard to overcome. I don't think there is much to recommend it. Edited September 8, 2014 by aboo 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dogson Posted September 8, 2014 good raw chocolate is underrated good with dem wack taoist herbs 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 9, 2014 'Drugs' ? .... that includes anything from a bit of hooch all the way through to 'ice' ... that is a very broad spectrum. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted September 9, 2014 Compared to what, exactly? Have you tried DMT? Peyote? Ayahuasca? Ibogaine? Ketamine? PCP? Crack? Your statement needs more context. Thank you for asking... I can get very colloquial. The experiences that have had a very strong impact on my sense of reality... Pranayama, Psilocybin, Sex, Mescaline, LSD, Performing on stage ... in that order of strength of impact on how I experience the world, i.e. paradigm on the milder order: caffeine, booze, cannabis, very spicy food, intense martial arts training, boulder hopping (parkour in nature) etc... I expect to participate in Ayahuasca, DMT and Peyote before I leave this plane, but haven't yet, so those affects are as yet unknown. But by far, of anything I've used or practice, Pranayama on several occasions was a level or three beyond any of the others... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
woodcarver Posted September 9, 2014 What ability drinking/drugs doesn't affect is an easier question to answer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted September 9, 2014 or sex, or food, or air, or water, or coffee... what is the nature of what we call 'a drug'? is a much more productive and interesting question, to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daeluin Posted September 9, 2014 (edited) or sex, or food, or air, or water, or coffee... what is the nature of what we call 'a drug'? is a much more productive and interesting question, to me. Anything which causes an extreme change in perception of one's reality will tend to shake up the balance of one's momentum through change, inviting further extremes of perception (highs and lows) amidst the various cycles through life. To balance one's momentum in change amidst strong extreme changes requires an equally matched strength of intention. Martial arts and exercise can help metabolize the effects of extreme change, raising the intensity of the dynamic to encompass both ends of the polarity. There are reports of LSD begin given to a guru high up in the mountains in the 60's, and the guru actually took a bit more than what is considered a safe dose... but showed no external signs of discomfort and didn't say much other than that he felt just fine. Adepts in awareness are already operating at a different level; and their body chemistry has already been altered significantly and perception operates differently for them. Perhaps different in the way that psychedelic drugs are said to effect the brain and perception, and thus don't pose the same type of threat to one's balance in reality as they might to those of us who are more in the beginning stages. Modern society doesn't train us very deeply in the ways of navigating spiritual energy, and I wonder if psychedelics are the best way to properly train this awareness. The more this level of perception is altered and developed by forces external to one's own spiritual devising, likely the more difficult to achieve clarity of understanding, at least one one's own, and unless this happens to be one's natural path. It is up to each of us as to the flavor of extreme change we operate under. Some chose to cultivate simplicity, to aid in getting deeper. Other choose to go wild. Is there only one path to balance? No. But it is also said that life is like a sine wave, with a limited length. The more extreme jumps, the shorter the length. The smoother and more gradual the ups and downs, the longer the length. Edited September 9, 2014 by Daeluin 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
i am Posted September 9, 2014 It would really look a lot better if they fixed all the typos in that book description...oh well. I wonder if he's talking about the experience Ram Dass had with his guru, when he gave him LSD? Anecdotal, but definitely something to think about. I think we can break down the definition of drugs until no one knows what we're talking about anymore, or we can stick to what we all pretty much know the OP meant. No offense to anyone...I completely understand. Someone flipping me off in traffic for absolutely no reason used to send my emotions off into no man's land...sugar makes me crazy...but we know what the OP meant. People have already stated it, but I think the right drugs at the right time can be very beneficial for some people. I absolutely believe that we'd all be better off if we came to our understanding and cultivation in a completely natural, sober way, without drugs. I don't advise anyone to take drugs to help their cultivation. But the fact is there are a lot of people who are on the path, who wouldn't be if it hadn't been for a drug-induced experience. A lot of people who came to certain flashes of understanding because of drugs, when it otherwise might have taken them years of meditation or maybe another lifetime of work. Is it better to reach those realization through meditation? Yeah, probably. At some point you might open a door you are not cultivated enough to deal with. But like anything...the extreme stances people sometimes take on this issue seems very un-Tao... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted September 10, 2014 Anything which causes an extreme change in perception of one's reality will tend to shake up the balance of one's momentum through change, inviting further extremes of perception (highs and lows) amidst the various cycles through life. To balance one's momentum in change amidst strong extreme changes requires an equally matched strength of intention. Martial arts and exercise can help metabolize the effects of extreme change, raising the intensity of the dynamic to encompass both ends of the polarity. There are reports of LSD begin given to a guru high up in the mountains in the 60's, and the guru actually took a bit more than what is considered a safe dose... but showed no external signs of discomfort and didn't say much other than that he felt just fine. Adepts in awareness are already operating at a different level; and their body chemistry has already been altered significantly and perception operates differently for them. Perhaps different in the way that psychedelic drugs are said to effect the brain and perception, and thus don't pose the same type of threat to one's balance in reality as they might to those of us who are more in the beginning stages. Modern society doesn't train us very deeply in the ways of navigating spiritual energy, and I wonder if psychedelics are the best way to properly train this awareness. The more this level of perception is altered and developed by forces external to one's own spiritual devising, likely the more difficult to achieve clarity of understanding, at least one one's own, and unless this happens to be one's natural path. It is up to each of us as to the flavor of extreme change we operate under. Some chose to cultivate simplicity, to aid in getting deeper. Other choose to go wild. Is there only one path to balance? No. But it is also said that life is like a sine wave, with a limited length. The more extreme jumps, the shorter the length. The smoother and more gradual the ups and downs, the longer the length. Very well said! Intensity of dynamic intention, awareness and interplay with flow intensity, resonance and dynamic polarity all in constant flux... but which ones are me and which ones are not me. who am i? I've never heard of that study but I can readily accept someone taking large doses of LSD and being unaffected as from my own experience, lower frequency vibrations may still flow all around and through the system, but a system of high frequency or intensity, would render such things almost imperceptible, unless perhaps, sought out or, 'allowed' to take affect. Again, though, I find it hard to imagine anything which is outside of me. Where I am, I don't perceive there to be anything external to 'me' there is what is, nothing is separate, everything is a constant dynamic flow... I think this is also why I don't experience the sense of a longer time being superior to a short time. There is now. *deep bow* really awesome response, it's triggered such awareness of some very subtle energies.. much much love... this conversation has me high lol I'm going to go channel this awesome energy now This place and these amazing conversations continues to be one of my favorite drugs so grateful for TTB and all of you. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
laozu Posted September 10, 2014 Keep your wits about you, or the option to collect them at a moment's notice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mace134 Posted September 10, 2014 From my experience as a pothead there positives and negatives. T The negatives: It makes me extremely lazy to the point where all I want to do is eat and watch television. This has also made me gain unwanted pounds. Its also very hard to meditate because it enhances the monkey mind and It also makes me very cranky. The positives: Im much more sensitive to chi.and the few times I have practiced while high I can feel it flowing more intensely. But this isn't what I wamt. Part of the reason I even started qigong is because I want to quit and it has helped. From seven days down to four and next week two. I do notice the days I dont smoke and cultivate instead im far less cranky and stressed out. Bruce Frantzis in his book Relaxing into your being has a passage about marijuana and he basically says what's true for me at least is that it hinders progress. Im not even a year in but I do want to eventually reach a high level so ill have to quit which is fine by me 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted September 10, 2014 http://www.timewheel.net/Video-Rick-Strassman-Buddhist-Monks-and-Psychedelics Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
