Self Awareness vs Self Consciousness

[i am]

When we try to cultivate ourselves and connect to the Tao, we want to lose self consciousness.

 

But so much of cultivation is creating a self awareness that most average people probably don't have.

 

What's the difference?

 

How do we become completely aware, without being self conscious? It seems like in the act of becoming self aware, there's a danger of becoming extremely self conscious.

 

Thoughts?

 

This is probably a topic more for people who have struggled with self consciousness than those who never really had a problem with it, but whatever.

 

 

[Bearded Dragon]

Self consciousness seems to be the mud and self awareness seems to be the water.

 

If you just aim to lose self consciousness then self awareness naturally takes over. This is what I have experienced.

 

Having an unbending desire to lose any irrational thoughts about self (image, personality, whatever) has been the catalyst over the years. Things don't happen over night but if you make that refinement a part of you then it just becomes a part of growing up. People naturally do that anyway, to a certain extent. This is how I have refined myself without doing anything. Sometimes I throw myself in the fire to speed up the process.

 

The problem that I see, especially in people twice my age, is that they don't want to change, they give up, or they self sabotage. This is the road to death, not the road to life.

 

I don't think it matters what method you use. As long as it works. Esoteric or non-esoteric.

[beyonder]

When we try to cultivate ourselves and connect to the Tao, we want to lose self consciousness.

 

But so much of cultivation is creating a self awareness that most average people probably don't have.

 

 

What's the difference?

Why would you want to lose self consciousness? Wanting to be rid of "self consciousness" is in itself a "clinging". Just let the mind come and go without tarrying. Don't hold on to contents of the mind, but let them "float" by, coming and going without tension, instead of trying to actively push those contents away. One doesn't become calm by forcing oneself. One becomes calm by relaxing. The same holds true for the mind.

 

Aum.

[Marblehead]

Interesting thread and interesting concepts: self consciousness and self awareness.

 

I think that in the actively changing world we would want to be as self conscious and self aware as possible. Otherwise people are going to pretend they are you and they will take from you everything you have.

 

However. in the privacy of one's self we can and, perhaps on occasion, should ignore self. This would be especially true during meditation, I think. And this is why I prefer empty-minded meditation when "I" am not concentrating on anything. "I" cease to exist during those times.

 

But exclusive of those meditative times awareness is of great importance, and this includes self awareness.

[doc benway]

When we try to cultivate ourselves and connect to the Tao, we want to lose self consciousness.

 

But so much of cultivation is creating a self awareness that most average people probably don't have.

 

What's the difference?

 

How do we become completely aware, without being self conscious? It seems like in the act of becoming self aware, there's a danger of becoming extremely self conscious.

 

Thoughts?

 

This is probably a topic more for people who have struggled with self consciousness than those who never really had a problem with it, but whatever.

Please define your terms -

 

self consciousness and self awareness

 

The first hurdle is to recognize that each of us probably perceive these in our own unique ways so communication may or may not be meaningful until we define these concepts.

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. We will never agree on definitions either.

[Brian]

Depends on what you mean by "agree."

[dwai]

First define the "Self", then we can proceed. Different people have different definitions of the term "Self" ;-)

[Marblehead]

First define the "Self", then we can proceed. Different people have different definitions of the term "Self" ;-)

Yep. We have tried that here many times before and we always ended with disagreements.

 

(But I still exist.)

[i am]

Yeah I'd hate to get bogged down in definitions. I think most typical American (or otherwise) teenagers could tell you all about what being self conscious is.

 

It's walking around unable to relax because you're afraid people are watching you and judging you. Standing in the mirror for way too long before you're willing to leave the house, going over and over whether you look ok. Always being tense and moving unnaturally because you feel you're "on display" and being judged.

 

Basically imaging you are insecure, and on a stage with a huge crowd watching everything you do in your life. That's self conscious.

 

It's definitely a type of vanity. It might even be vanity with no confidence. Vanity with too much insecurity.

 

Self awareness is knowing the space you take up. Knowing your biases. Knowing how your mind works, your personality. Knowing more or less how people see you. Knowing how you react in certain situations. Knowing the lens through which you see the world, basically. Which allows you to transcend it. I guess I relate being self aware to being "realized". Knowing who you are and how you work, and therefore you have the ability to step outside of that framework.

 

I feel that before someone can really be aware, they need to get rid of the self consciousness, or it will only feed it.

 

But then I think that as I've become more self aware, my self consciousness has faded away. But I agree that to a certain extent that just happens with age.

 

I do feel that being self conscious is a huge roadblock to enlightenment. And then I started thinking "well wouldn't a self conscious person, attempting to become self aware, simply feed the disease?"

 

But I don't know...

[Marblehead]

Yeah I'd hate to get bogged down in definitions. I think most typical American (or otherwise) teenagers could tell you all about what being self conscious is.

Ah! You used the term "self conscious" in a manner I never would have. I saw nothing but negative aspects to your usage. So based on your usage, yes, throw out self consciousness.

[Silent Answers]

The vanity issue and pressure that society puts on young people to look a certain way is part of our animalistic heritage. It's at an extreme today because their lives are quite literally on a stage (of social networking), where the first rung on the ladder is to broadcast everything you do and think. Meanwhile, a majority vote/the media dictates what is and isn't acceptable, moving the scene along like a flock of birds.

 

I've met some very extreme cases here in Asia.

 

On the other hand, if we keep the stage but take away the negative aspects (the vanity and pressure)...the world would be in a much better position. Ideally you don't want to make it a system of guilt and fear. Instead, it removes the self's temporary illusion of being able to have secrets, and would create an emotional bond between people that is somewhat lost today. (This is the way I personally choose to live)

 

A lot of the things we do wrong... those things that help feed the ego...they would all stop if people knew that one day our spirits/souls would rejoin to be as one. Where every action is seen and felt by those we love. Where we feel the pain and suffering of those we hurt throughout our journey. Again, not through guilt but as an act of compassion and understanding.

 

As individuals, we like to think we can get away with having secrets...most of which aren't anything we are proud of.

 

However, as the world grows under this age of monitored connectivity, a darker side emerges. We may one day be part of a truly big brother-like society that removes individuality completely, through public judgement. Making it a controlled and governed system would be our downfall.

 

If the afterlife were proven to exist through scientific means..we could all stop being assholes, out of choice.

 

But then again, that realisation would also make The Test far too easy.

[Marblehead]

The vanity issue and pressure that society puts on young people ...

That's where my error was rooted. I'm an old man and I don't give a shit.

[Silent Answers]

That's where my error was rooted. I'm an old man and I don't give a shit.

Haha! While I may still be fairly young, I can relate to that more with each passing day.

[forestofclarity]

Thinking back, I found that they were very similar. In fact, I personally believe that an aversion to self-consciousness is one of the things that keeps people asleep to themselves. Self consciousness, as noted, is often something bad. There are often reported studies that tell us people are more afraid of public speaking than death (public speaking can be an excellent practice).

 

One difference is that self-awareness does not judge. For me, there is judgment or a fear of judgment in self-consciousness that is absent in self-awareness. When one is self-conscious, there is typically an imaginary standard that you measuring yourself by. "Am I doing this right? Do I sound foolish? There is no way I can do this!"

 

However, with self-awareness, one is aware without judging, or at least not becoming involved in judging. This doesn't happen overnight, but if we practice sincerely it develops over time.

[Marblehead]

So anyhow, just a few minutes ago I get a telephone call from someone wanting to sell me funeral expenses insurance and after their initial spouting of words I respond with, "I don't need it. I am immortal, I'm not going to die." She said, "Okay. Thank you." and hung up.

 

How useless is that of me?

[dwai]

Yep. We have tried that here many times before and we always ended with disagreements.

 

(But I still exist.)

I know...*sigh!*

But by know you'd think almost everyone would get that fact (that they exist) ;-)

 

But on a serious note, to be clear, when I first read the OP, I was thinking, whats the difference (between self-consciousness and self-awareness)?

 

Then after reading further I realized the "self consciousness" being referred to is sort of a pathology (psychological, but a pathology nonetheless) that plagues many people.

 

For all intents and purposes, the terms consciousness and awareness are used interchangeably. So, towards that end, they are non-different in my opinion. The issue then is with the predicate and whether the combination of the two point to -

 

a) consciousness/awareness of our self-hood or

self-consciousness

 

Like many have noted, there is a difference between the two

 

To delve into "option a" is a complicated discussion that's probably been beaten to death here on TTB over and over again.

"option b" is a pathology of course, and it reinforces that which obscures the Self-hood of "option a".

 

Hope I made sense.

 

P.S. - To further elucidate my point, it seemed to be that we become "pathologically self-conscious" when there is an image to uphold. Like Matt pointed out, when there is judgment involved - "how will I be perceived if I do this, or say this, or wear this etc". The scale of this changes as we grow. The flip side of self-conscious (in our mundane everyday context) is self-confidence. If one is self-confident, the self-consciousness fades away (or at least doesn't take on the menacing pathological demeanor that it's notorious for).

Edited September 12, 2014 by dwai

[i am]

Thanks for the replies.

 

My case wasn't self consciousness based on social media. I'm a bit too old for that. The stage example I only used as an extreme example of what I'd feel.

 

Walking across campus, I'd be tense. Because I felt people were watching me walk. I'd have to have my hands in my pockets, or tucked into my long sleeves, 'cause I wasn't quite sure how to let my arms hang. Short sleeves sucked...would have to keep my hands in my pockets. My shoulders were always tensed up. I was self conscious of how skinny I was, of how I dressed, of my hair, my personality, of everything.

 

It's hard to do anything just not caring what people think. Because I really cared what people thought.

 

But you get older and more secure, and you care less and less what people think, and you get over it. And maybe all that attention you used to pay to yourself in a negative way, starts to become positive, as you become self aware

[dwai]

Thanks for the replies.

 

My case wasn't self consciousness based on social media. I'm a bit too old for that. The stage example I only used as an extreme example of what I'd feel.

 

Walking across campus, I'd be tense. Because I felt people were watching me walk. I'd have to have my hands in my pockets, or tucked into my long sleeves, 'cause I wasn't quite sure how to let my arms hang. Short sleeves sucked...would have to keep my hands in my pockets. My shoulders were always tensed up. I was self conscious of how skinny I was, of how I dressed, of my hair, my personality, of everything.

 

It's hard to do anything just not caring what people think. Because I really cared what people thought.

 

But you get older and more secure, and you care less and less what people think, and you get over it. And maybe all that attention you used to pay to yourself in a negative way, starts to become positive, as you become self aware

In Indian traditional medicine (Ayurveda), these are classic symptoms of Vata aggravation (Vata = the Wind element/humor).

Typically by dressing appropriately and eating the right kind of food, this kind of mental anguish can be eliminated.

 

There might be something to the claim that many of our phobias and manias are rooted in our lifestyle choices - what we eat, when we wake up, how long we sleep, what we wear, where we live etc.

Edited September 12, 2014 by dwai

[doc benway]

When we try to cultivate ourselves and connect to the Tao, we want to lose self consciousness.

 

But so much of cultivation is creating a self awareness that most average people probably don't have.

 

What's the difference?

 

How do we become completely aware, without being self conscious? It seems like in the act of becoming self aware, there's a danger of becoming extremely self conscious.

 

Thoughts?

 

This is probably a topic more for people who have struggled with self consciousness than those who never really had a problem with it, but whatever.

 

 

Yeah I'd hate to get bogged down in definitions. I think most typical American (or otherwise) teenagers could tell you all about what being self conscious is.

 

It's walking around unable to relax because you're afraid people are watching you and judging you. Standing in the mirror for way too long before you're willing to leave the house, going over and over whether you look ok. Always being tense and moving unnaturally because you feel you're "on display" and being judged.

 

Basically imaging you are insecure, and on a stage with a huge crowd watching everything you do in your life. That's self conscious.

 

It's definitely a type of vanity. It might even be vanity with no confidence. Vanity with too much insecurity.

 

Self awareness is knowing the space you take up. Knowing your biases. Knowing how your mind works, your personality. Knowing more or less how people see you. Knowing how you react in certain situations. Knowing the lens through which you see the world, basically. Which allows you to transcend it. I guess I relate being self aware to being "realized". Knowing who you are and how you work, and therefore you have the ability to step outside of that framework.

 

I feel that before someone can really be aware, they need to get rid of the self consciousness, or it will only feed it.

 

But then I think that as I've become more self aware, my self consciousness has faded away. But I agree that to a certain extent that just happens with age.

 

I do feel that being self conscious is a huge roadblock to enlightenment. And then I started thinking "well wouldn't a self conscious person, attempting to become self aware, simply feed the disease?"

 

But I don't know...

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

I think that self awareness is the most important thing we can do with respect to personal cultivation, along with developing a commitment to helping others - we're just one of the others that needs help...

 

Self-consciousness is just one specific personal characteristic that is illuminated by self-awareness.

There are many others but that's certainly a good one to work with.

 

I think we suffer from that in varying degrees.

It's a reflection of self-judgement and is just a specialized form of our mind's tendency to judge everything.

So I think it's helpful to become aware of our tendency to judge and explore what that means, what purpose it serves, and how effective and skillful a means it is in terms of moving forward along our path and enrich us in terms of personal growth and relationships.

The judge is just another thought. And it can be absolutely brutal. It knows all of our secrets. It never lets up.

It can certainly be helpful in our daily lives but for most of us it is way too active and causes more trouble than necessary.

It's interesting to see who the judge is - it's generally a conglomeration of conditioned responses we have inherited from our culture, our parents, teachers, friends, TV ads, etc...

When we begin to really see the true nature of the judge, it becomes less powerful.

It's possible to see right through it and let it go to a large degree but it's always hovering there, ready to give advice and criticism.

The other side of the coin is the one who is feeling judged - that is the same thing, an amalgamation of expectations, desires, fears, disappointments, etc... It is completely empty of any inherent existence. It is just a thought pattern.

When we over-identify with a particular role (father, mother, child, doctor, lawyer, janitor, scientist, athlete, cultivator, whatever...), the judge and the judged become very active.

When we notice our tendency to over-identify and can let go of that, the self-consciousness eases.

 

The tendency to judge is simply a natural response to our illusion of duality.

If we feel separate from our surroundings and others, we begin to measure and judge.

The more open we feel, the more we can simply allow everything to be as it is without judgement, distinction, and measurement, the more connected and at ease we feel.

 

I could go on and on - this is an area where I really like to focus my attention and practice.

I hope that's of some value.

[Marblehead]

 

I could go on and on ...

I'm glad you stopped though, my eyes were getting crossed.

[PLB]

Being consumed with anxiety about how others see oneself is certainly fraught with illusion and fear. It is good to move far enough away from that fire to avoid being burnt by it.

But it is not a part of life that one simply gets over. Our ability to perceive what is happening with people is entangled with those images our "ourselves" that cause such intense feelings of shame and anger.

That I can find a way to live beyond the bondage of those feelings does not make me their master. Cultivation is not a promise that all will be revealed.