Why is the sage so useless?

[soaring crane]

BUT ... most people don't understand the sage and think he/she does nothing and is useless ... which is the whole point (of this thread) surely?

 

Fair enough. But that wasn't really clear (to me) until the simple statement in post #67. And by the time that one rolled around, there'd been a bit of what I perceived to be unnecessary cynicism.

[Nikolai1]

And by the time that one rolled around, there'd been a bit of what I perceived to be unnecessary cynicism.

 

I only said that the virtues of the sage go largely unnoticed, Is this too cynical? Or do you think that the sage gets a consensus of approval? Can you think of a sage who has?

[soaring crane]

I only said that the virtues of the sage go largely unnoticed, Is this too cynical? Or do you think that the sage gets a consensus of approval? Can you think of a sage who has?

 

no, not at all, forgive me. It was the language around the message I was referring to. And it's just my perception, which can always be way off the mark.

[Chang]

Does the sage care if he is considered, or indeed if he is, useless?

[soaring crane]

Does the sage care if he is considered, or indeed if he is, useless?

I think one of the prerequisites is that s/he be quite unaware of all the hubbub

[Chang]

I think one of the prerequisites is that s/he be quite unaware of all the hubbub

 

Unaware or unconcerned?

[soaring crane]

I'd say unaware is the higher state. Childlike etc

[Chang]

I prefer aware but unconcerned, as advised in the Gospel of Thomas. Jesus said, "Be passersby."

 

But we are both describing the same state of sagehood as described in the Gospel of Matthew. "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

I think I've lost track of this thread.

 

Sages likely work in the invisible realms, which some believe exist.

 

Or something like that.

 

I think this is the least productive contribution I have ever made to a thread.

...

Edited September 17, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[soaring crane]

I prefer aware but unconcerned, as advised in the Gospel of Thomas. Jesus said, "Be passersby."

 

But we are both describing the same state of sagehood as described in the Gospel of Matthew. "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

 

Nice :-)

 

I think when taking non-judgement to the ultimate, the child-nature returns ala Daodejing 28. And then there's no turning back, no distinctions made, every breath as amazing as the first. Not 'considered' or 'viewed' as amazing, but truly amazing.

[Daeluin]

HEAVEN-and-Earth is not sentimental;
It treats all things as straw-dogs.
The Sage is not sentimental;
He treats all his people as straw-dogs.

Between Heaven and Earth,
There seems to be a Bellows:
It is empty, and yet it is inexhaustible;
The more it works, the more comes out of it.
No amount of words can fathom it:
Better look for it within you.

[GrandmasterP]

Does the sage care if he is considered, or indeed if he is, useless?

 

Deeply.

 

"There was no point freezing your nadgers off on top of some mountain while communing with the Infinite unless you could rely on a lot of impressionable young women to come along occasionally and say ‘Gosh’."

 

( Terry Pratchett : Maskerade).

[soaring crane]

Between Heaven and Earth,

There seems to be a Bellows:

It is empty, and yet it is inexhaustible;

 

I'm pretty sure that's what inspired my first post in this thread :-)

[Marblehead]

Unaware or unconcerned?

Yes, unconcerned, not unaware.

[Marblehead]

...

I think I've lost track of this thread.

 

Sages likely work in the invisible realms, which some believe exist.

 

Or something like that.

 

I think this is the least productive contribution I have ever made to a thread.

...

Hehehe. Close, I'm sure.

[3bob]

or it could be that some know such realms exist...

[GrandmasterP]

or it could be that some know such realms exist...

 

Yep.

I imagine there are some as think that.

[Nikolai1]

Even though i was writing mostly ironically here, I've decided to write a new post here about how useful the sage is.

 

We've discussed the idea that the sage is useful in hidden esoteric ways that the rest of us don't understand. My argument is that we don't understand the true nature of all the world's work, and when we do, we see that what the sage does is a natural extension of that.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

All of the work in the world, all that we call good and useful, is performed by the ignorant. Ignorance is the tool that the Tao uses to get things done.

 

The busy, practical person is in a state of enchantment. They believe that what they do is useful. What they fail to see is that in a different time and place the Tao is using another useful, practical person to undo and spoil and ruin all the good work.

 

A big cause of suffering in this life is that we meet this person. In fact the world is full of people undoing all our good work.

 

But on one point you and your enemy both agree:

 

The sage, (who has cultivated wisdom and dispelled the Tao’s enchantment), is an extremely useless and lazy person.

 

He is quite happy to let us get on with our work. He does not tell us to desist. But he won’t lift a hand and help.

 

Last April I said to him: ‘The bush on the driveway is spreading out of control. In one week a branch has grown 10 cm, which means by this time next year we’ll have 5 metre branches covering the whole yard and the car won’t even reach the garage!

 

But he refused to lift a finger! Said he was busy til Christmas and he’ll look at it then!’

 

Why is this?

 

The sage cannot help but be lazy. Once the enchantment has been lifted, his mind, body and heart are now completely unable to participate in the useful work in the world. However much he tries it won’t work.

 

For a while this upsets him too! But with time he learns to stand aloof from his fellow bipeds, and to view their work as dispassionately as he sees the work of the ant or the tree. The people are just instruments of the Tao, and the Tao does not see fit to use him in that way.

 

Wherever we are working, whatever we are working for…this is the index of our ignorance!

 

 

Lookit, a description of me! HOLY COW! I'm a sage

 

 

setting the easiest to ignore example n_n

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

true, because it'll be covered by a rich layer of snow that the sage of laziness refuses to clear. What's the use in having a garage if you can't get to it?

 

What is the use of any empty vesil?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Which begs the question...

" Do the sagacious marry?"

 

Only for strictly all encompassing mutual wide open Love.

 

Something even mroe rare than a(n?) unicorn.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

The fool is useless because he seeks nothing.

 

The most careless fool to live through the trials of his life becomes the wisest sage.

[soaring crane]

 

What is the use of any empty vesil?

If there's an impenetrable lid plugging it, absolutely nothing. In fact, in that case we don't even know if the dammed thing is empty or not haha.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

only nothing is impenetrable; all things have limits, there are no absolutes. 'release-resistent' at best, and with varying levels of difficulty - but no truly impassible barriers exist except from thing-ness to no-thing-ness; if there's a lid, find the correct way to open it.

[soaring crane]

only nothing is impenetrable; all things have limits, there are no absolutes. 'release-resistent' at best, and with varying levels of difficulty - but no truly impassible barriers exist except from thing-ness to no-thing-ness; if there's a lid, find the correct way to open it.

 

ah, yes, well, that's precisely what I said re bushes in front garages and snow and stuff :-)