Arousal vs Relaxation Study. How did rigpa fare?

[Tibetan_Ice]

Arousal vs. Relaxation: A Comparison of the Neurophysiological and Cognitive Correlates of Vajrayana and Theravada Meditative Practices

 

The short version: http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-08-reveals-vajrayana-meditation-techniques-tibetan.html

 

The longer version:

 

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0102990

 

It is too bad that they told the vajrayana practitioners to close their eyes for their meditation sessions... It almost invalidates the whole study.

 

It is also interesting that the gamma waves decreased during deity and rigpa meditations... Kind of blows Zoom's hypothesis out of the water, that Dzogchen is about increasing gamma waves, doesn't it?

 

.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[asunthatneversets]

It is too bad that they told the vajrayana practitioners to close their eyes for their meditation sessions... It almost invalidates the whole study.

Generation stage [bskyed rim] practice is done with eyes closed so the study shouldn't be invalidated.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Generation stage [bskyed rim] practice is done with eyes closed so the study shouldn't be invalidated.

Yes but if the vajrayana practitioners normally meditate with eyes open, this would have opened the Kati channel. According to Padmasambhava, if the eyes are closed this channel is closed.

 

Thus, when the eyes are closed, that channel is closed off and points down, so consciousness is dimmed by the delusion of darkness. By steadily fixing the gaze, that channel faces up and opens, which isolates pure awareness from impure awareness. Then clear, thought-free samādhi arises, and numerous pure visions appear. Thus, the gaze is important.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/36286-more-about-the-kati-crystal-heart-channel/?p=579778

 

Also, when you "rest in rigpa", are the eyes supposed to be open or closed? (Or partially open)?

You don't do thogal with eyes closed...

Edited September 14, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

Generation stage [bskyed rim] practice is done with eyes closed so the study shouldn't be invalidated.

Further, it says in the article itself hat the rigpa meditation is a completion stage...

 

The data from the Theravada style practitioners were recorded in a meditation hall at the Yannawa Temple (Bangkok, Thailand), and the data from the Tibetan Vajrayana style practitioners was recorded at the Shechen Monastery library (Kathmandu, Nepal). EEG and EKG were continuously recorded throughout the study. At the beginning of the session, each participant performed a 10 minute Rest condition, during which they were explicitly instructed not to meditate but to remain seated with their eyes closed, and to simply relax. Following a 5 minute break, the Theravada practitioners were asked to perform 15 minutes of Shamatha meditation followed by 15 minutes of Vipassana. Tibetan Vajrayana practitioners were asked to perform 15 minutes of Deity meditation after the Rest condition, followed by 15 minutes of Rig-pa meditation. The orders of meditation were chosen per request of the participants who found that it is more natural first to meditate in Shamatha followed by Vipassana. Similarly, since Rig-pa (completion stages) follow the end of Deity practice (generation stage), Vajrayana practitioners performed Deity first followed by Rig-pa. For participants who did not speak English, interpreters translated all the instructions into their native language.

 

In contrast to Theravada styles of meditation, which are performed with closed eyes, Vajrayana practices are often performed with open eyes. However, to make the experimental conditions as similar as possible, we instructed all the practitioners to meditate with closed eyes. Importantly, we ensured that all our Vajrayana practitioners were comfortable with such a request, and they all confirmed that this would not affect their meditation.

 

Further, when Alan Wallace starts to get into the awareness of awareness practices, that is when he starts mentioning to keep the eyes open or partially open.

[asunthatneversets]

If these practitioners are familiar with generation and completion stages then it wouldn't matter whether they had their eyes open or closed. Methods which use the channels you mentioned are specific practices done for a specific purpose, these practitioners wouldn't be implementing those methods in this type of situation anyway. Overall, for seasoned practitioners it doesn't matter if the eyes are open or closed, they can rest in the view either way.

[Tibetan_Ice]

If these practitioners are familiar with generation and completion stages then it wouldn't matter whether they had their eyes open or closed. Methods which use the channels you mentioned are specific practices done for a specific purpose, these practitioners wouldn't be implementing those methods in this type of situation anyway. Overall, for seasoned practitioners it doesn't matter if the eyes are open or closed, they can rest in the view either way.

What is "resting in the view"?

What does that mean?

Padmasambhava's "Natural Liberation" states that one does not cultivate a view..

 

Self-Arising Awareness again states:

 

Do not cling to appearances. Do not affirm nonexistence. Do not reject existence. Do not accomplish buddhahood. Do not practice meditation. Do not cultivate the view. Do not put a stop to deceptive appearances. Do not experience pure appearances.

 

The earlier treatise also states:

 

For the view, observe self-arisen primordial wisdom. It is beyond virtue and vice, meditation and viewamazing! Without moving the basis, whatever physical actions are performed, they are free of virtue and vice, benefit and harmha ha!

 

 

The only "view" presented is not an intellectual view, but a practice. The practice of observing primordial wisdom. And the way to do that is by gazing at it.

 

O Lord of Mysteries, these are the instructions for actualizing the Dharmakāya: external space is this empty intervening space; internal space is the empty, hollow channel that connects the eyes and the heart; and secret space is the precious palace of your own heart. Direct your awareness to your eyes; direct your eyes to the intervening space, and by leaving your gaze there, primordial wisdom freely arises. When consciousness is directed to your eyes, nonconceptual awareness alone will appear, without being obscured by any compulsive ideation.

 

 

It also states that this is not about maintaining a view of emptiness, nor any form of conceptual view, for those types of views dissolve.

 

The Primary Tantra on the Penetration of Sound states: The direct vision of reality-itself surely emerges from the apertures of the sense faculties, and it is radiant in the cloudless sky. Thus, analytical views, including views entailing grasping onto cogitation, words, intellectual understanding, and so on, dissolve. Nirvāṇa Traces states: Due to the direct vision of reality-itself, views entailing grasping onto cogitation dissolve.

 

 

So what exactly are you saying when you say that these meditators are "resting in the view".

Edited September 15, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[ralis]

What is "resting in the view"?

What does that mean?

Padmasambhava's "Natural Liberation" states that one does not cultivate a view..

The only "view" presented is not an intellectual view, but a practice. The practice of observing primordial wisdom. And the way to do that is by gazing at it.

 

It also states that this is not about maintaining a view of emptiness, nor any form of conceptual view, for those types of views dissolve.

 

 

So what exactly are you saying when you say that these meditators are "resting in the view".

 

He is not positing anything from experience, but parroting what he has read. I have incessantly asked the Buddhists posting here to speak from direct experience as opposed to sounding like every other Buddhist that posts here. The redundancy is boring.

 

I have written in regards to a few of my experiences, but was not well received by any Buddhist here. There exist rules that were written down in the 'middle ages' admonishing one not to discuss experiences with threats of hell realms or some such nonsense. It is time to move on from ancient superstitions and authoritarianism.

Edited September 15, 2014 by ralis

[ralis]

I have asked Buddhists to explain their 'relaxing into the view' in regards to this travesty or other acts of insanity committed by psychopathic personalities. For 2500 years Buddhism has provided no answers to the human condition, except 'relax into the view'. Escapist ideology.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT3uuhUd9oo

Edited September 15, 2014 by ralis

[Tibetan_Ice]

Well, according to that book the easiest method for "realizing primordial wisdom" is by gazing, and the centre between the brows plays a role too..

 

If I close my eyelids halfway and mentally focus on the area of the forehead, I can see a luminous essence which is a lighter sample of that pool of water/bliss/silence/love which exists around the heart. It is really not that hard. The essence is lustrous and luminous. It ties in with third eye sight and it is found quite pronouncedly right before the eyes and on the lower forehead.

 

During my last gazing meditation, I found myself in a vision or visual field which was very strange. This field consisted of dark red and dark orange pipes of sorts, intertwining plumbing. There were no bright lights, but just enough light to make out slabs of jagged brown chunks with many many pipes or tubes leading around and everywhere. I thought I might have been dreaming but I was entirely lucid. As in dreams, I pushed my way through some dark reddish brown slabs of sorts, but there was only more tubes or pipes beyond. I could not tell what was up or down. And he very strange thing was that every ten seconds or so, my physical heart would emit a shower of tingles (big rush). I played in this state for over 45 minutes. There was little change in scenery, just massive amounts of dark red/brown and orange pipes/tubes and jagged pieces of broken cement (that's how I would describe it).

 

The other thing that has been happening is that now I am seeing sheets of entire visual scenes suddenly pick up and move around. A whole scene of visions suddenly moves away, like a someone has moved a painting or a projection, and then another slide or portrait is moved into view.

 

The other things I am seeing are small thin lines that look exactly like fingerprints made out of red light, as well a a circle center with concentric circles of rainbow light surrounding the center and progressing outwards, just like in the thogal picture books.

 

So maybe these experiences are called "resting in the view" but I believe I am watching manifestations of primordial wisdom coming up through the Kati channel precipitated by gazing. It is actually kind of fun. You never know what you are going to see next!

[ralis]

Well, according to that book the easiest method for "realizing primordial wisdom" is by gazing, and the centre between the brows plays a role too..

 

If I close my eyelids halfway and mentally focus on the area of the forehead, I can see a luminous essence which is a lighter sample of that pool of water/bliss/silence/love which exists around the heart. It is really not that hard. The essence is lustrous and luminous. It ties in with third eye sight and it is found quite pronouncedly right before the eyes and on the lower forehead.

 

During my last gazing meditation, I found myself in a vision or visual field which was very strange. This field consisted of dark red and dark orange pipes of sorts, intertwining plumbing. There were no bright lights, but just enough light to make out slabs of jagged brown chunks with many many pipes or tubes leading around and everywhere. I thought I might have been dreaming but I was entirely lucid. As in dreams, I pushed my way through some dark reddish brown slabs of sorts, but there was only more tubes or pipes beyond. I could not tell what was up or down. And he very strange thing was that every ten seconds or so, my physical heart would emit a shower of tingles (big rush). I played in this state for over 45 minutes. There was little change in scenery, just massive amounts of dark red/brown and orange pipes/tubes and jagged pieces of broken cement (that's how I would describe it).

 

The other thing that has been happening is that now I am seeing sheets of entire visual scenes suddenly pick up and move around. A whole scene of visions suddenly moves away, like a someone has moved a painting or a projection, and then another slide or portrait is moved into view.

 

The other things I am seeing are small thin lines that look exactly like fingerprints made out of red light, as well a a circle center with concentric circles of rainbow light surrounding the center and progressing outwards, just like in the thogal picture books.

 

So maybe these experiences are called "resting in the view" but I believe I am watching manifestations of primordial wisdom coming up through the Kati channel precipitated by gazing. It is actually kind of fun. You never know what you are going to see next!

 

 

Have you tried using the sky as a focus?

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

 

I have written in regards to a few of my experiences, but was not well received by any Buddhist here. There exist rules that were written down in the 'middle ages' admonishing one not to discuss experiences with threats of hell realms or some such nonsense. It is time to move on from ancient superstitions and authoritarianism.

I would love to read or hear about your experiences. Any links?

[ralis]

I would love to read or hear about your experiences. Any links?

 

I will send you a PM if you like.

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

 

Have you tried using the sky as a focus?

Many times but not for an extended period of time. I see little white dots moving in arcs, appearing and disappearing rapidly. They sparkle and shine. Someone said that it could be orgone. I'll have to try extended sky gazing some time.

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

I will send you a PM if you like.

Sure! That would be great!

[ralis]

Many times but not for an extended period of time. I see little white dots moving in arcs, appearing and disappearing rapidly. They sparkle and shine. Someone said that it could be orgone. I'll have to try extended sky gazing some time.

 

When I did my second retreat in Death Valley, it took me over a week to find the right spot. I think the sun was too bright at the time and when the sun is less intense, that is more amenable to the practice.

[asunthatneversets]

What is "resting in the view"?

What does that mean?

Resting in one's knowledge of primordial wisdom, is the view [lta ba].

 

Padmasambhava's "Natural Liberation" states that one does not cultivate a view..

It cannot be cultivated, only recognized.

 

The only "view" presented is not an intellectual view, but a practice. The practice of observing primordial wisdom.

Precisely.

 

It also states that this is not about maintaining a view of emptiness, nor any form of conceptual view, for those types of views dissolve.

Emptiness is not a conceptual view one can hold but rather is the pacification of views. That pacification is then 'the view'.

 

So what exactly are you saying when you say that these meditators are "resting in the view".

They have a direct experiential knowledge of their nature.

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

When I did my second retreat in Death Valley, it took me over a week to find the right spot. I think the sun was too bright at the time and when the sun is less intense, that is more amenable to the practice.

MARVELOUS! I can hardly wait to hear about your experiences!

 

I used to do mirror gazing and gazing at each other's faces when I was a teenager. A native Indian buddy showed me how. I saw many many faces, which apparently were what you looked like in previous lives. We got so good at it that we could project visages at each other and then confirm what we had projected. We spent a few weeks doing that, every day after school... part of my Don Juan influence back in the seventies

[Seeker of Wisdom]

What is "resting in the view"?

What does that mean?

...

 

I'm pretty sure it's a standard statement in Dzogchen that the meditation is resting in the view, i.e. resting in rigpa.

[C T]

I have asked Buddhists to explain their 'relaxing into the view' in regards to this travesty or other acts of insanity committed by psychopathic personalities. For 2500 years Buddhism has provided no answers to the human condition, except 'relax into the view'. Escapist ideology.

These words alone invalidate everything you have claimed to understand, and will continue to claim to understand, in relation to Buddhism and its practices. With such an attitude, why do you even bother to enter any discussion here -- its mind-boggling.

 

You have this ritualistic habit of donning an invisible anti-tradition garb while prancing about in your denigratory poses and rants against those who question your words. As if you know better.

 

Buddhism is the only systematic path that gives perfect insight into the human condition while providing endless antidotes to delusional thinking & and practical means to free the mind, leading to peace and other sublime, bilssful states. Unfortunately you will never be able to fully grasp the truth of this. If you did, you would not come across as cynical, clinging to the past, and one-dimensional most of the time.