Malcolm Pees on The Tao Bums

[Tibetan_Ice]

Malcolm wrote:

 

...

 

While I don't believe in restricted texts either, I do understand that people create a lot of problems for themselves by reading texts they don't understand and thinking that they do. Case in point, Taobums.

 

...

 

_________________

http://www.bhaisajya.net

http://www.bhaisajya.guru

http://atikosha.org

འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

 

"If one is free from the activities of samsara and nirvana

how can there be anything apart from Dzogchen?"

-- The Soaring Great Garuda

 

 

http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=1828

 

What's up with that?

 

I can think of many derogatory comments at this point but instead I will wait. If you wait long enough, so they say, the bodies of your enemies will come floating down the river...

 

It is funny that Malcolm gets to push out hatred for other sites from his own site, yet religiously censors topics on his own site like the latest one that was removed because a lama had a picture of himself and his protoge in yabyum which resulted in unsavory discussion... Senge Khadro...

 

 

.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[BaguaKicksAss]

dramabums this week!

[Protector]

Malcolm wrote:

 

http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=1828

 

 

Actually I kinda agree

[Mandrake]

Actually I kinda agree

Yes, me too.

 

"Hatred" is taking it too far. I don't for a second believe Malcolm "push[es] out hatred"; sensationalism.

 

 

M

[Tung]

Isn't that true for all things that we en counter we simplifie all things we encounter so we can react/interact to it as fast as possible.

Only when we had time to think about or encounter the the same things we can develop a deeper understanding.

 

And teas old cryptic text that was not supposed to be understood by outsiders who can interpret them correct today, not many.

 

Layers up on layers always more to uncover, so best thing to realize is that there are always more to learn and alway be humble whats true to yourself many not be the truth to others.

[goldisheavy]

Malcolm wrote:

 

"While I don't believe in restricted texts either..."

 

Cool, so Malcom doesn't believe in placing restrictions on texts! That's the only thing that really matters. He also happens to think someone has misunderstood a text, which is not at all surprising.

 

People each understand texts they read subjectively, from the POV of their inner and outer circumstances. I personally don't think there is one correct understanding of any text, but instead I think there is a range of skillful interpretations, and the less skillful ones, all appearing on a continuum of interpretation and understanding. So it's not a sharp distinction of "you got it, and you didn't get it" and not "right/wrong." It's a continuum of skillfulness, subjective, and there is an entire range of skillfulness as opposed to a single point.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Unfortunately, Malcolm has a point IMHO. Some recent discussion on TTB is people trying to reinterpret Buddhism in light of what they want it to be because of misunderstanding some quotes.

 

I encourage having your own ideas, and people are welcome to openly disagree with Buddhism, but when they say: "most Buddhists think X, but actually [insert Buddhist text] says Y [when it actually says nothing of the sort] so all you Buddhists who believe X are wrong, fortunately I'm here to educate you about your own system"; it's arrogant, patronising and just sad really.

 

Then they don't read the responses and say: "oh, so the Buddhist view is X after all and I misinterpreted that text as saying Y. Personally I think Y because..." Instead they keep insisting that they understand Buddhist material better than all the Buddhists do... or even insist that they are actually Buddhist and the only one who gets the real meaning! Very strange really.

[Silent Answers]

Still, don't criticise the cup just because the water is tainted.

[Jetsun]

I don't believe all the scare stories about how if you read a text too advanced for you it will create barriers for life in your practice, that just sounds like a load of BS to me. It is possible that if you read advanced texts you may start to create mind made concepts around what you read and start intellectualising about things before you have realised them in an embodied way, but that is pretty much what we all do all the time anyway, just continuing down the path should sweep these away in the end, sure it is better not to have such self created barriers in the way but there is no need to fear that somehow you are completely destroying your progress down the line through doing so.

[C T]

In this instance, Malcolm's encouragement & assertions in that linked thread is correct. Whether he has interacted here to make that deduction more or less factual is anybody's guess.

 

Some Dzogchen texts are best studied with a teacher or a senior student of the teacher after specific empowerments related to contents of said texts have been received. Otherwise not only will inner (as opposed to intellectual) realization not occur, there is a likelihood that one becomes more stuck than before delving into said texts. Malcolm's main purpose in saying what he did, i think, is to highlight this basic truth of the Vajrayana path. To say that he was critical of TTB is a bit of an overemphasis as he simply pointed out, with accuracy, a common tendency among some Buddhist forum participants to post and invite discussion of some texts when they do not even meet the basic essential requirements that allows them the study of said texts. Its understandable if this could be confused by some into thinking that there is an element of elitism involved by saying that some texts are withheld, but this is definitely not the case. Its almost impossible anyway to withhold discreet commentaries nowadays. But actual result from textual studies can be very limiting in terms of gaining right understanding. What is distinctly missing is oral transmission, without which everything else remains nothing but the development of philosophical insights.

 

Many 'secret' texts are openly available these days, and too many freelancers and dabblers avail of these materials without actually understanding the uselessness of studying them without first establishing the right support, which is refuge in the Triple Gem. The quality of this foundation, once established, determines if what is sought from the texts yield the right results or lead one to deeper confusion.

[idiot_stimpy]

Don't label yourself as a Buddhist then you won't care.

[thelerner]

I'm always amazed at how emotionally charged and angry some of the Buddhist discussions get.

[C T]

Sometimes anger allows transformation to occur. If anger is not allowed to surface, how can it evaporate? Moreover, the problem is not anger itself, but the repeated hatred of oneself for succumbing again, and again, that essentially cause more damage than that emotion of raw passion. Vajrayana teaches practitioners the way to see & tap into the empty nature of emotional energies and use their potent presence as an alchemical process to pacify negative habits. Those who form dualistic views about anger have more problems than the angriness that arise and fades, like everything else do.

[ralis]

Sometimes anger allows transformation to occur. If anger is not allowed to surface, how can it evaporate? Moreover, the problem is not anger itself, but the repeated hatred of oneself for succumbing again, and again, that essentially cause more damage than that emotion of raw passion. Vajrayana teaches practitioners the way to see & tap into the empty nature of emotional energies and use their potent presence as an alchemical process to pacify negative habits. Those who form dualistic views about anger have more problems than the angriness that arise and fades, like everything else do.

 

Why not keep the emotional outbursts and anger to yourself (that includes other Buddhists posting here) as opposed to spewing it all over this forum. Vajrayana is internal work not a projection to others.

[ralis]

I'm always amazed at how emotionally charged and angry some of the Buddhist discussions get.

 

I think this sums up the problem of religion which applies to all religious belief systems. The operative phrase being "is the only". The quote is from CT.

 

The religious meme infects the human brain.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/36314-arousal-vs-relaxation-study-how-did-rigpa-fare/page-2#entry580388

 

 

Buddhism is the only systematic path that gives perfect insight into the human condition while providing endless antidotes to delusional thinking & and practical means to free the mind, leading to peace and other sublime, bilssful states. Unfortunately you will never be able to fully grasp the truth of this. If you did, you would not come across as cynical, clinging to the past, and one-dimensional most of the time.

Edited September 16, 2014 by ralis

[C T]

I think this sums up the problem of religion which applies to all religious belief systems. The operative phrase being "is the only". The quote is from CT.

 

The religious meme infects the human brain.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/36314-arousal-vs-relaxation-study-how-did-rigpa-fare/page-2#entry580388

You have something better to offer then, i take it? Lay out your philosophical strategies then and lets delve into it with sensible debate. If you cannot offer any substantially logical meme in place of what i have asserted, then you are welcome to keep your opinions where they belong.

[doc benway]

Malcolm wrote:

 

http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=1828

 

What's up with that?

 

I can think of many derogatory comments at this point but instead I will wait. If you wait long enough, so they say, the bodies of your enemies will come floating down the river...

 

It is funny that Malcolm gets to push out hatred for other sites from his own site, yet religiously censors topics on his own site like the latest one that was removed because a lama had a picture of himself and his protoge in yabyum which resulted in unsavory discussion... Senge Khadro...

 

 

.image.jpg

 

I think he makes a valid point.

It's not a criticism of the site, nor is it a reflection of hatred, rather an observation of the behavior of some members here.

It's also a testament to the freedom of expression that is tolerated and even encouraged here.

 

 

I'm always amazed at how emotionally charged and angry some of the Buddhist discussions get.

 

I think the emotional involvement simply reflects over-identification.

When we over-identify with a our role in life, it leads to heightened emotional reactions, whether it is our job, our role in the family unit, our role as a practitioner, etc...

And no where do we tend to identify more deeply than with our religions, spirituality, personal beliefs, and value systems.

The emotional component is simply an indication of how much more work needs to be done on the path...

[Tibetan_Ice]

Yes, me too.

 

"Hatred" is taking it too far. I don't for a second believe Malcolm "push[es] out hatred"; sensationalism.

 

 

M

No, he pushes out an arrogance and the message that you have to be a scholar in order to really understand the texts. Like he is the only person capable of understanding texts. You don't understand texts by throwing more intellectual knowledge at them, you understand texts through practices and experiences.

 

Malcolm is pushing and selling the idea that only the chosen few are capable of understanding the texts, when in reality, it is the mind which is not capable of understanding. It is not the tao bums who serve as an example of lost sheep in the land of ignorance, it is the mind. The mind isn't going to save you, it is experience that will. And there is no shortage of minds on vajracakra either. There are just as many, if not more ignorant minds on the vajracakra forum as there are on Dharmawheel or any other forum. Only, by positing his finger at TTB's, he is also stating that that there is no savior, no grasping scholar here to point out the real meaning behind the words of the texts.

 

You don't need the ability to translate Tibetan in order to know what the texts are saying. There do exist very intelligent PHD's like Alan Wallace whom have already rendered texts, secret or otherwise, into understandable concepts. And the concepts become even more clear when coupled with practical experiences. Tenzin Namdak and Tenzin Wangyal also tell it like it is, don't hide secrets and do a marvelous job of explaining concepts and practices. And what's more, they will even publish their experiences in books, like Tenzin Wangyal did, of his dark thogal retreat.

 

Malcolm's attack on TTB's is one of the reasons why vajracakra and dharmawheel members visit this forum and push their "you are wrong because you don't use the same terminology that Malcolm uses" attitude.

 

I've seen it time and time again. That group of Malcolmites will even disavow CN Norbu's books and writings simply because they contain a quote from Ramana. Case in point: The Marvelous Primordial State.

 

You shouldn't reduce spiritual discovery to a sham of "unless you're in our club you are all wrong".

 

Further, Malcolm, although quite intelligent and linguistically blessed, is not capable of realizing what other people truly understand by reading their posts. Anyone who spouts off blanket statements is in fact exposing their own ignorance and building sand castles of conjecture.

 

The problem with the intellect is that it is always at odds with the heart, and anyone who pushes the intellect and intellectual knowledge does so at the detriment of the heart. Once you experience primordial wisdom you will understand the pitiful minuscule conceptual mind's frailty and you will wonder how you could have ever let it self inflate to such a degree. (Pun intended)

 

Edited September 17, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[asunthatneversets]

No, he pushes out an arrogance and the message that you have to be a scholar in order to really understand the texts. Like he is the only person capable of understanding texts. You don't understand texts by throwing more intellectual knowledge at them, you understand texts through practices and experiences.

 

Malcolm is pushing and selling the idea that only the chosen few are capable of understanding the texts, when in reality, it is the mind which is not capable of understanding. It is not the tao bums who serve as an example of lost sheep in the land of ignorance, it is the mind. The mind isn't going to save you, it is experience that will. And there is no shortage of minds on vajracakra either. There are just as many, if not more ignorant minds on the vajracakra forum as there are on Dharmawheel or any other forum. Only, by positing his finger at TTB's, he is also stating that that there is no savior, no grasping scholar here to point out the real meaning behind the words of the texts.

 

You don't need the ability to translate Tibetan in order to know what the texts are saying. There do exist very intelligent PHD's like Alan Wallace whom have already rendered texts, secret or otherwise, into understandable concepts. And the concepts become even more clear when coupled with practical experiences. Tenzin Namdak and Tenzin Wangyal also tell it like it is, don't hide secrets and do a marvelous job of explaining concepts and practices. And what's more, they will even publish their experiences in books, like Tenzin Wangyal did, of his dark thogal retreat.

 

Malcolm's attack on TTB's is one of the reasons why vajracakra and dharmawheel members visit this forum and push their "you are wrong because you don't use the same terminology that Malcolm uses" attitude.

 

I've seen it time and time again. That group of Malcolmites will even disavow CN Norbu's books and writings simply because they contain a quote from Ramana. Case in point: The Marvelous Primordial State.

 

You shouldn't reduce spiritual discovery to a sham of "unless you're in our club you are all wrong".

 

Further, Malcolm, although quite intelligent and linguistically blessed, is not capable of realizing what other people truly understand by reading their posts. Anyone who spouts off blanket statements is in fact exposing their own ignorance and building sand castles of conjecture.

 

The problem with the intellect is that it is always at odds with the heart, and anyone who pushes the intellect and intellectual knowledge does so at the detriment of the heart. Once you experience primordial wisdom you will understand the pitiful minuscule conceptual mind's frailty and you will wonder how you could have ever let it self inflate to such a degree. (Pun intended)

 

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life

[Creation]

I don't believe all the scare stories about how if you read a text too advanced for you it will create barriers for life in your practice, that just sounds like a load of BS to me. It is possible that if you read advanced texts you may start to create mind made concepts around what you read and start intellectualising about things before you have realised them in an embodied way, but that is pretty much what we all do all the time anyway, just continuing down the path should sweep these away in the end, sure it is better not to have such self created barriers in the way but there is no need to fear that somehow you are completely destroying your progress down the line through doing so.

I was reading a certain publicly available Dzogchen book, and was at a point dealing with practice instructions. It was just for curiosity's sake, but I didn't think anything of it because it was publicly available. At a certain step, an unmistakable message arose in my mind: "STOP READING THIS". So I stopped.

 

Words are not "just words", especially when it comes to Dzogchen.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I was reading a certain publicly available Dzogchen book, and was at a point dealing with practice instructions. It was just for curiosity's sake, but I didn't think anything of it because it was publicly available. At a certain step, an unmistakable message arose in my mind: "STOP READING THIS". So I stopped.

 

Words are not "just words", especially when it comes to Dzogchen.

Does your mind control you? Or do you control your mind? Sounds like your mind got the best of you.

Who exactly sent you that message? What was the source? Do you do everything your mind tells you to do?

My mind is a toilet bowl of every kind of thought imaginable, the result of endless dumping from aeons gone by. Why would I give one thought more preference and not push the lever?

[BaguaKicksAss]

I read the entire thread on that other site, interesting .

 

Now I'm paranoid to read anything lol. Sutras seem safe, will stick with sutras... *puts away flight of Garuda*

 

Though how I wish that people would take Western magic books, most especially grimoires, this seriously!

[idiot_stimpy]

Why limit yourself with certain beliefs that you can or can not read something? Karma gives access to certain things. If you're reading for the sake of being liberated from suffering and you are inclined to do so, then go ahead. Have faith in the protector spirits that guard these texts.

Edited September 17, 2014 by idiot_stimpy

[BaguaKicksAss]

The protector spirits have no idea how good I am at finding rare books . Though I'm guessing it's more like someone wouldn't understand a particular book if they are not yet ready, or not meant to use it.