Scottish Independence

[Taomeow]

Significantly higher than that in some states, I think.

 

Definitely. Here in CA you hear "we're a different country" all the time... Sometimes it's a joke, and sometimes it's a credo. Half the time I half agree.

 

Oh, and some senator (I think) recently proposed to split California into six separate states. Wasn't following up on what happened to the project, but it was no joke, there were some thought-through arguments behind the proposal as I recall.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Taomeow

[Brian]

Several counties in Colorado voted recently on the question of forming a new state. About half voted "yes" but they didn't have a quorum.

[Vmarco]

 

 

Sorry but your analogy doesn't make any sense. mexico is just one country not a union of any kind as far as I know. If you were to ask would a seceded Texas want to remain part of NAFTA that would be closer to the mark. And I think the answer to that would almost certainly be yes.

 

The official name of Mexico is the United States of Mexico,...there are 31 States in their union.

[Apech]

The official name of Mexico is the United States of Mexico,...there are 31 States in their union.

 

 

Yes, my mistake Brian already told me.

[soaring crane]

I think the real question now is why the rest of the UK cannot now vote on whether they *want* Scotland to be part of the union. ... Why does the vote only work one way?

 

you mean kick the bums out? Well, they do have the right to referendum (as opposed to the Spanish Catalonians and the Tiroleans, who have been grumbling about leaving Austria for a while), so, if a campaign were to begin and people got behind it, maybe it could be possible? Pure conjecture on my part, but it's an interesting angle.

[Blackfinger]

 

It's like divorce... you can't refuse to grant a divorce to a husband just because the wife doesn't want it. And, on the other hand, you can't terminate a marriage just on the grounds of one of the spouses having thought about divorce.

this doesn't make sense though. .. Scotland was granted a referendum on choosing their continued participation in the union. This has not been granted to the other countries of the union in lieu of the vote. Perhaps knowing nearly 50% of a member country want out would affect the efficacy of the union in the eyes of other members.

 

certainly most English I have spoken with either couldn't care less about the Scottish vote or would prefer the Scots to be separate. There are arguments for and against but generally it is undeniable that Scotland is a financial drain on the UK taxpayer and that the average UK subject would be better off without subsidising them. This of course doesn't take into account the non-fiscal benefits of union.

 

The family analogy is a good one. ....

[Apech]

“We fought two world wars together. And there is not a cemetery in Europe that does not have Scots, English, Welsh, and Irish lying side-by-side.

And when young men were injured in these wars, they didn’t look to each other and ask whether you were Scots or English, they came to each other’s aid because we were part of a common cause.

And we not only won these wars together, we built the peace together, we built the health service together, we built the welfare state together, we will build the future together.

And what we have built together by sacrificing and sharing, let no narrow nationalism split asunder ever.

And let us tell also those people who have been told unfairly by the nationalists that, if you vote No, you are a less than patriotic Scot. Tell them this is our Scotland.

Tell them that Scotland does not belong to the SNP, Scotland does not belong to the Yes campaign, Scotland does not belong to any politician – Mr Salmon, Mr Swinney, me, or any other politician – Scotland belongs to all of us.

And let us tell the nationalists this is not their flag, their country, their culture, their streets.

This is everyone’s flag, everyone’s country, everyone’s street.”

 

Gordon Brown

[zerostao]

you mean kick the bums out? Well, they do have the right to referendum (as opposed to the Spanish Catalonians and the Tiroleans, who have been grumbling about leaving Austria for a while), so, if a campaign were to begin and people got behind it, maybe it could be possible? Pure conjecture on my part, but it's an interesting angle.

it seemed that the brittish (at least the govt) were almost in a panic that scotland might leave.

cameron was pleading for a no vote

[GrandmasterP]

Deep concern I'd say.

Panic only set in last weekend when a Sunday Times poll indicated that Yes might win by a narrow margin.

Prior to that everyone correctly predicted, as did I; the eventual result.

[soaring crane]

Deep concern I'd say. Panic only set in last weekend when a Sunday Times poll indicated that Yes might win by a narrow margin. Prior to that everyone correctly predicted, as did I; the eventual result.

 

and the reason for the panic, given that apparently nobody in England wants them? (as has been suggested)

 

Is it the oil?

[Apech]

and the reason for the panic, given that apparently nobody in England wants them? (as has been suggested)

 

Is it the oil?

 

 

For a Tory ... officially the Conservative and Unionist Party (although that refers to the union with Ireland) it would be political suicide to deconstruct the Union. Cameron's head would have rolled ... as it may still do.

[soaring crane]

That sounds reasonable. "not on my watch" etc...

[Apech]

That sounds reasonable. "not on my watch" etc...

 

 

One thing we haven't really touched on on this thread is that part of the divide was based on a switch of traditional Labour voters to the SNP. While England is currently governed by a coalition of Tory and sub-Tory (Lib Dems) it is really quite strongly Conservative (Tory). the Scottish MPs were always strongly Labour and past Labour governments relied on their numbers for a majority. So if the 'yes' campaign had won it was expected that England would be Tory in perpetuity while Scotland would be a lefty refuge. This is why both the main parties in England panicked at the prospect of the 'yes' win but for different reasons.

[Blackfinger]

I know this may sound kerrrazee but I believe Cameron genuinely wanted the scots to stay for reasons not entirely political. There is a lot of scots/english cross pollination especially amongst the upper classes and many past PMs were schooled in Scotland (e.g gordonstoun)... and in an excellent post above GMP highlighted the fact that the union has shared many triumphs and hardships over the years. tradition and familiarity can be powerful motivators.

 

there is a tendency to overthink political machinations and be overly pessimistic about government intentions. Might as well write off 5k years of human progress in that case.

 

in this incidence I do believe camerons appeal was from the heart. politicians are human too and although they can be c*nts, so can we all

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

Is it the oil?

 

It's certainly a factor.

 

...

[soaring crane]

...

 

It's certainly a factor.

...

 

German TV, jawohl! :-)

[GrandmasterP]

Just seen the stats in today's Times.

Only ' Greater Glasgow' had a small Yes majority.

Everywhere else throughout Scotland was solidly No.

Huge No majority in The Isles and amongst the 65+ age group.

Edited September 20, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Blackfinger]

Huge No majority in The Isles and amongst the 65+ age group.

I imagine the result in 20 years time would be quite different. ...

The question is: is the generic 'grey' vote inherently fixed on the more sobre and considered option of union, or is it just *this* grey generation who are in favour?

 

Time will tell. ...

[silent thunder]

Seems the fear factor won out, but in the end, as I said, there aren't any truly independent countries any longer, we are all tied to each other somehow...

 

I wish them all well. Great land, great culture and great people!

[GrandmasterP]

I imagine the result in 20 years time would be quite different. ...

The question is: is the generic 'grey' vote inherently fixed on the more sobre and considered option of union, or is it just *this* grey generation who are in favour?

Time will tell. ...

 

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas and lots of English retirees opt for Scotland as they get free prescriptions and old age care .

We have to pay for those in England.

Had Salmond won I suspect those perks would have disappeared as English taxes currently subsidise them.

That would have ended.

[silent thunder]

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas and lots of English retirees opt for Scotland as they get free prescriptions and old age care . We have to pay for those in England. Had Salmond won I suspect those perks would have disappeared as English taxes currently subsidise them. That would have ended.

Maybe... but with the amount the scots add to the british coffers and their much smaller population, I suspect they could have taken care of their own.

[Blackfinger]

Maybe... but with the amount the scots add to the british coffers and their much smaller population, I suspect they could have taken care of their own.

 

I think this seems to be a commonly accepted fallacy. ..

 

Scotland takes much more from the UK than it contributes (financially of course...) even including the oil.

 

Not saying they wouldn't be able to take care of their populace... But their health service and dole are substantially funded by the 60 odd million English taxpayers. Definitely not vice versa. it would have been interesting to see how they made it work (especially with it being one of Europe's least healthy countries)

[silent thunder]

I just don't buy the 'the scots are a dependent child of the UK who can't take care of themselves' routine for a second.

 

Perhaps that's not what you guys are implying, but that's what I'm inferring from what you've said.

[bluefire]

Just seen the stats in today's Times.

Only ' Greater Glasgow' had a small Yes majority.

Everywhere else throughout Scotland was solidly No.

Huge No majority in The Isles and amongst the 65+ age group.

 

 

[idquest]

Many tend to forget about the main business large polities implement - protection. With the assumption being that the smaller nation wouldn't need its own military at all if it breaks away from a confederation. But protection doesn't go anywhere, in most cases it just shifts to something else; in Europe this will be NATO. And let's not forget that NATO expenses are largely financed by the USA and to a much lesser extent by UK and Germany. This is why all Eastern European countries wanted to join NATO right away after USSR collapse: they couldn't come up with their own resources to build its own military but still wanted protection.

 

I'd agree that protection as a government business is pretty much the same as any street protection when 'protectors' create situations to demonstrate how people/subjects need them. But from time to time something crazy will come up and then you have to act and you better have some muscle to show.