Petitionary prayer - we all do it!

[Nikolai1]

To make a request of God, and to expect that it will be delivered requires a purity of faith that is rare in the secular West.

 

And yet petionary prayer is still very much alive and well! This is through a certain behaviour of the atheist which, though different at first glance, is emotionally, intellectually and spiritually identical.

 

I'm talking about any act of pure self-assertion. By this I mean the everyday business of 'making a decision and sticking with it, man!'

 

The belief that the sovereign power of our own self-will and determination gets us whatever we want is indistinguishable from the belief in an omnipotent God.

 

As I wrote in the Archbishop thread, this attitude, in theist and atheist alike, represents the lowest level of spiritual development. We request from God, or we pursue with determination, specifics only - things that we want and need in our mortal life, and which the spiritually mature person has lost all interest in.

 

But we mustn't be mistaken, these two forms of getting what we want really do work. Desires that are strong enough will eventually manifest, whether we Imagine it to be through God's doing or our own.

 

But it is still the case that the spiritually wise person wants for nothing in particular and has no desires that are creating his reality. He wants only what IS, and believes that whatever Is must be what he desired.

[Protector]

Actually it's different

People who believe in god want someone else to do everything for them while normal rational people realize that they have to do most of the things by themselves

Religious person: DEAR GOD please do this thing for me and let me sit on my ass until then

Normal person: I guess I have to do it myself right now

[GrandmasterP]

"Desires that are strong enough will eventually manifest, whether we Imagine it to be through God's doing or our own."

 

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

 

Edited September 22, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Nungali]

Mullah Nasruddin was on a ferry on a long water crossing. There were some very wealthy looking passengers on board. he offered to present a sermon but no one was interested or wanted to hear it.

 

Eventually a bad storm blew up, it got worse and worse and people began to get panicked - it looked like the ship was about to sink. One by one the passengers started to;

 

" Oh God, please save me, I promise when I get to shore I shall give all my riches to the poor."

 

"Oh God, please forgive, here, I cast of my pearls and gold into the sea, and from now on, I promise to say all my prayers every day and be good."

 

"Oh God, If you get me out of this I promise I will treat others well for the rest of my life .... I will go back to my wife and children and take good care of them."

 

All of a sudden the Mullah jumped up and pointed; " Hold on everyone! Dont be so rash! I think I see land and clear weather ahead!"

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2014 by Nungali

[silent thunder]

If you really want to do something, you'll find a way...

if you don't... you'll find an excuse.

[Nikolai1]

Actually it's different

People who believe in god want someone else to do everything for them while normal rational people realize that they have to do most of the things by themselves

 

In a way you're right to ridicule believers in God who think that God wills things to happen in their lives.

 

But it is equally irrational, and ridiculous, to believe that we do 'most things by ourselves.'

 

The individual self is a construct as extravagantly fantastical as God! It is the empty idol of the atheist.

 

In fact, like all illusions they are of the same ontological nature. The individual self, like God, cannot be seen directly but only inferred to exist through a series of highly changeable outward manifestations. The self itself we never see; just like time, like space, like causality...and just like God.

 

God and the individual self are basic superstitions that the wise do not fall for. It therefore follows that all this talk about 'doing things for yourself' and 'asking God to do for us' - in other words, the very notion of agency - is based on an illusion.

 

The wisest see only the transformation of things.

 

The second wisest see only Self if an atheist, or only God if a theist. The wise atheist recognises that we all create our own reality. The wise theist sees that God is the omnipotent creator, that the individual is his passive instrument, and that individual will is an illusion.

 

The foolish, and this most people at the start of the spiritual path and in general life, see a duality. The foolish atheist sees an individual will that can be constrained by immutable physical laws. The foolish theist sees God's will thwarted by the sinful proclivities of the individual will.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Nikolai1

[joeblast]

do I have to paste the soft parade here too

[Nikolai1]

Hi GrandmasterP

"Desires that are strong enough will eventually manifest, whether we Imagine it to be through God's doing or our own."

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

 

When I talk about desires manifesting I'm basically talking about the Law of Attraction. But it's not as fantastical as it sounds, all of life can be understood in this way of we wish.

 

At 10.07am You are making a cup of tea and it seems Mrs GMP has used all the milk for tonight's souffle. The raw reality of this moment is interspersed with shadowy mental images of yourself at the corner shop.

 

At 11.13am You are making tea and there is enough milk for you to splash a bit into the dog's bowl as well. The raw reality is also interspersed with shadowy mental images of yourself at the corner shop.

 

At both these moments you being at the corner shop exists only in as mental images that are open to interpretation. You could say that you went to the shop of your own volition, or you could say that the shop came to you through your powers of manifestation. Both of these scenarios make sense. After all there are many things in your life that just come to you without effort, and just appear according to their own merry way.

 

But because we live in narratives, stories is all they are, but crucial to the plot are 'laws' about the way things are ...and things like corner shops do not magically appear but must be effortfully moved to.

 

You are right to be sceptical about the Law of Attraction, because it doesn't work for us unless we have abandoned our sense of being a self in time and space.

 

But as a theory it is entirely plausible and seeing that and realising that is itself the liberation that the Law seems to promise. To feel that the corner shop walked to you is itself the liberation. And you won't feel it unless you have first recognised its plausibility at the intellectual level.

[Nikolai1]

do I have to paste the soft parade here too

Actually yes!

[Protector]

Mentally, we are better then god

We imagined it as being the most powerful and most ultimate, but if we actually saw it, we could imagine a step beyond

Every interpretation of god can be questioned and every wisdom from books outsmarted

By simplest taiji principle, god being everywhere and doing everything makes it worthless

Physically, our bodies are not as good as we would have wished for

Evolution wasn't as nice to us as we think, that's why if we use our superior minds, we could become better machines

Since our minds live inside our physical brains, our minds can get even better

We can take a step beyond god at least two times, and to think that some people still use that thing

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Mentally, we are better then god

We imagined it as being the most powerful and most ultimate, but if we actually saw it, we could imagine a step beyond

Every interpretation of god can be questioned and every wisdom from books outsmarted

By simplest taiji principle, god being everywhere and doing everything makes it worthless

Physically, our bodies are not as good as we would have wished for

Evolution wasn't as nice to us as we think, that's why if we use our superior minds, we could become better machines

Since our minds live inside our physical brains, our minds can get even better

We can take a step beyond god at least two times, and to think that some people still use that thing

 

Imagine perfectly empty nothingness and nothinglessness.

[GrandmasterP]

Hi GrandmasterP

 

 

When I talk about desires manifesting I'm basically talking about the Law of Attraction. But it's not as fantastical as it sounds, all of life can be understood in this way of we wish.

 

At 10.07am You are making a cup of tea and it seems Mrs GMP has used all the milk for tonight's souffle. The raw reality of this moment is interspersed with shadowy mental images of yourself at the corner shop.

 

At 11.13am You are making tea and there is enough milk for you to splash a bit into the dog's bowl as well. The raw reality is also interspersed with shadowy mental images of yourself at the corner shop.

 

At both these moments you being at the corner shop exists only in as mental images that are open to interpretation. You could say that you went to the shop of your own volition, or you could say that the shop came to you through your powers of manifestation. Both of these scenarios make sense. After all there are many things in your life that just come to you without effort, and just appear according to their own merry way.

 

But because we live in narratives, stories is all they are, but crucial to the plot are 'laws' about the way things are ...and things like corner shops do not magically appear but must be effortfully moved to.

 

You are right to be sceptical about the Law of Attraction, because it doesn't work for us unless we have abandoned our sense of being a self in time and space.

 

But as a theory it is entirely plausible and seeing that and realising that is itself the liberation that the Law seems to promise. To feel that the corner shop walked to you is itself the liberation. And you won't feel it unless you have first recognised its plausibility at the intellectual level.

 

But the shop shuts at tea time.

[Nikolai1]

But the shop shuts at tea time.

No problem - just call it supper and stop being so northern.

[soaring crane]

The OP resonates with me. Quite, yes. Both scenarios, hoping for God and believing in your self, expose a lack of genuine faith in... the universe?

[Nikolai1]

The OP resonates with me. Quite, yes. Both scenarios, hoping for God and believing in your self, expose a lack of genuine faith in... the universe?

 

Neither show a lack of faith. Both show too much faith in your intellect. You need to see that God and Self are the same thing...and then you lose interest in all talk that relates to either.

[soaring crane]

Neither show a lack of faith. Both show too much faith in your intellect. You need to see that God and Self are the same thing...and then you lose interest in all talk that relates to either.

 

yeah, l that's basically what I saying/thinking, just wording it differently (in a quickie post from my phone)

[Nikolai1]

There's also a lot of people, and especially on this site, who will espouse atheist arguments in one context and in aother talk about 'trusting the universe' or 'following the Tao'.

 

Any principle to which you imagine yourself receptive or in a passive relation is God, and is therefore theism.

 

The person who is content to passively 'follow the Tao' believes in God although they might not admit it!

[ThisLife]

Mullah Nasruddin was on a ferry on a long water crossing. There were some very wealthy looking passengers on board. he offered to present a sermon but no one was interested or wanted to hear it.

 

Eventually a bad storm blew up, it got worse and worse and people began to get panicked - it looked like the ship was about to sink. One by one the passengers started to;

 

" Oh God, please save me, I promise when I get to shore I shall give all my riches to the poor."

 

"Oh God, please forgive, here, I cast of my pearls and gold into the sea, and from now on, I promise to say all my prayers every day and be good."

 

"Oh God, If you get me out of this I promise I will treat others well for the rest of my life .... I will go back to my wife and children and take good care of them."

 

All of a sudden the Mullah jumped up and pointed; " Hold on everyone! Dont be so rash! I think I see land and clear weather ahead!"

 

 

 

 

Updating, abbreviating, and livening up dear old Nasruddin to our current 21st century, the wisdom in his cautionary tales still lives on :

 

*

 

Stressed Executive, late for meeting, desperately seeking parking place:

 

"Lord, if you find me a parking place, I promise I will believe in you"

 

Like magic, a parking place suddenly opens up.

 

S.E. "Forget that promise, Lord, I've just found one".

 

*

Edited September 25, 2014 by ThisLife

[ThisLife]

There's also a lot of people, and especially on this site, who will espouse atheist arguments in one context and in aother talk about 'trusting the universe' or 'following the Tao'.

 

Any principle to which you imagine yourself receptive or in a passive relation is God, and is therefore theism.

 

The person who is content to passively 'follow the Tao' believes in God although they might not admit it!

 

That always strikes me as an extremely curious statement, to say that someone is "following the Tao"

 

To me that automatically puts the speaker in a position 'separate' from the Tao, a position from which he can either choose to, or choose not to, be part of the Tao. Or to negate it with his extremely potent power of disbelief.

 

This sounds like a tail which has somehow, suddenly developed a basic level of awareness. Its first, beginner's thought, is that it must have magically created the dog which, (from the tail's perspective), seems to have sprung forth so miraculously from the almighty tail.

 

Until God, the dyslexic doG,... looks back and said, "Woof, Woof !"

 

*

Edited September 26, 2014 by ThisLife