Is being unborn the same as being dead ?

[Nungali]

Marblehead's question - but it interested me so much I wanted to split and examine it;

 

(Hope ya dont mind Marbles?)

 

 

I wouldn't be able to as I have never been dead yet. A thought: Is being unborn the same as being dead?

Can you start a thread with that question? What a great question! (Ah heck, I'll do it.)

If you have never been dead , and death and being unborn are the same, have you ever been unborn?

If you have been unborn but never have died , can they be the same thing?

I have wanted to track this thing down ... the 'Hamnamut ' ( sic probably) - cant remember ... I read somewhere that it is 'another' state or level of the 'soul' aside from the main 4 ( in some types of Kabbalism) that is the pre-birth state. But I haven't been able to find a reference to it since. Anyone ... maybe its an Egyptian thing ? ( sounds a bit Egyptian? )

 

Some indigenous here say the prebirth state is a 'germ-child' that lives in the local sacred 'increase' site 'i/ A man takes it home and gives it to his wife and then it passes into her.

I tried writing a poem from that space once ... I really liked it but it surprised me a bit - it came out a bit sorta revolutionary . it was probably influenced by the Louis Macneice one below.

I also heard one written by another from that perspective (more generally) from a 15 year old girl - brilliant ... dont know where she got it from ?

 

Prayer Before Birth.

I am not yet born; O hear me.
Let not the bloodsucking bat or the rat or the stoat or the
club-footed ghoul come near me.

I am not yet born, console me.
I fear that the human race may with tall walls wall me,
with strong drugs dope me, with wise lies lure me,
on black racks rack me, in blood-baths roll me.

I am not yet born; provide me
With water to dandle me, grass to grow for me, trees to talk
to me, sky to sing to me, birds and a white light
in the back of my mind to guide me.

I am not yet born; forgive me
For the sins that in me the world shall commit, my words
when they speak me, my thoughts when they think me,
my treason engendered by traitors beyond me,
my life when they murder by means of my
hands, my death when they live me.

I am not yet born; rehearse me
In the parts I must play and the cues I must take when
old men lecture me, bureaucrats hector me, mountains
frown at me, lovers laugh at me, the white
waves call me to folly and the desert calls
me to doom and the beggar refuses
my gift and my children curse me.

I am not yet born; O hear me,
Let not the man who is beast or who thinks he is God
come near me.

I am not yet born; O fill me
With strength against those who would freeze my
humanity, would dragoon me into a lethal automaton,
would make me a cog in a machine, a thing with
one face, a thing, and against all those
who would dissipate my entirety, would
blow me like thistledown hither and
thither or hither and thither
like water held in the
hands would spill me.

Let them not make me a stone and let them not spill me.
Otherwise kill me.


Louis Macneice

[thelerner]

Hmnnn, maybe an unknowable question. Materialistically, things have a beginning middle and end. Before the beginning, they don't exist. I guess the question is about the nature of the soul.

[C T]

In Mahayana Buddhism there is this concept of ever-present potential related to the term Unborn.

Some say its the basic ground where any possible manifestation can arise, dependent on combinations of conditions. Its nature (this basic ground) is often compared to space, or the sky, because space is unceasing. The unceasingness of space means forever without a beginning...

 

Unborn is also a principle related to transcended mind, one that is always yielding in the direction of Isness,

or reality as is, a channel thru which one comes into reality's presence.

 

It is also associated with the Sanskrit term Dharmata -- Dharma means "basic norm"... ta is "ness". So,

Dharmata points directly to Suchness, Isness or Nowness, a stateless state where reality is ever-birthing,

unperturbed by preconceived ideas, views or notions, all of which traps one in a thicket of views bound

to past and future.

 

The concept of the Unborn, which discounts all possibility for dualistic views to ever take root, is subtly expressed

in Nagarjuna's statement: "Since I do not stand for any opposite arguments, therefore, I cannot be challenged".

 

 

 

 

 

The Sanskrit word dharmatā, ཆོས་ཉིད་, chö nyi in Tibetan, means the intrinsic nature of everything, the essence of things as they are. Dharmata is the naked, unconditioned truth, the nature of reality, or the true nature of phenomenal existence. -- Rigpa Wiki

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2014 by C T

[Nungali]

Hmnnn, maybe an unknowable question. Materialistically, things have a beginning middle and end. Before the beginning, they don't exist. I guess the question is about the nature of the soul.

 

Perhaps more than materialistically as well ? The Three Gunas are supposed to be a universal principle.

[Nungali]

In Mahayana Buddhism there is this concept of ever-present potential related to the term Unborn.

Some say its the basic ground where any possible manifestation can arise, dependent on combinations of conditions. Its nature (this basic ground) is often compared to space, or the sky, because space is unceasing.

 

Sounds a bit like 'hyle' ?

[thelerner]

Perhaps more than materialistically as well ? The Three Gunas are supposed to be a universal principle.

How do the three Gunas relate to the unborn?

[Marblehead]

Marblehead's question - but it interested me so much I wanted to split and examine it;

 

(Hope ya dont mind Marbles?)

No, I don't mind at all. I put my thought out to the world to do whatever anyone cared to do with it.

 

You have done a very nice job at getting a thread going regarding this concept.

 

Yes, I am a Materialist so that limits where I would go in a discussion of this. The was no Marblehead before an egg was fertilized. And there will be no Marblehead after I bite the big one.

 

However, most of us like to think about a soul of some form. And true, some suggest that the soul existed prior to birth of a body and even more suggest that the soul 'lives' lives on after physical death. This is all part of our personal beliefs and if these beliefs hlp us through our life than I suggest that they are good (whether factually true or not).

[Nungali]

How do the three Gunas relate to the unborn?

 

Well , ..... ahem ...... hmmm .....

 

 

How did I come up with that again

 

yeah, you're right, I suppose 'creation' is after the 'unborn' ?

 

Hang on, now I remember ... it was in relation to you saying this:

 

" Materialistically, things have a beginning middle and end. " and I meant that may apply to non material things as well, not that the gunas apply to the unborn ..... I gotta watch you ....

 

 

.....

 

 

Edited September 24, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

No, I don't mind at all. I put my thought out to the world to do whatever anyone cared to do with it.

 

You have done a very nice job at getting a thread going regarding this concept.

 

Yes, I am a Materialist so that limits where I would go in a discussion of this. The was no Marblehead before an egg was fertilized. And there will be no Marblehead after I bite the big one.

 

Hmm ... maybe the Marblehead of last year doesnt exist any more either ?

 

However, most of us like to think about a soul of some form. And true, some suggest that the soul existed prior to birth of a body and even more suggest that the soul 'lives' lives on after physical death. This is all part of our personal beliefs and if these beliefs hlp us through our life than I suggest that they are good (whether factually true or not).

 

I think that was the original idea ... it seems to have got a bit confused along the way.

 

Anthropologists John Monoghan seems to agree with you; " ... it seems apparent that one thing religion or belief helps us do is deal with problems of human life that are significant, persistent, and intolerable. One important way in which religious beliefs accomplish this is by providing a set of ideas about how and why the world is put together that allows people to accommodate anxieties and deal with misfortune."

Edited September 24, 2014 by Nungali

[Daeluin]

Being unborn is getting to before there is the polarity of life and death.

 

The whole life flashing before your eyes thing over the course of seven days as the red raven descends, or whatever Neidan texts say.

 

After that you may be unborn, but you've still been alive and dead before many times and have inherited your past life shells. So at this point you spend nine years shattering the emptiness, dissolving any evidence that you ever lived or died, returning the many bodies to one. This would also appear to be the work distinguishing a celestial immortal from a heavenly immortal.

 

Info on this seems pretty well hidden though... anyone know of some good reference material?

[Daeluin]

An unborn child on the other hand, has had their spirit reincarnate into a fetus and the more the fetus grows the more that spirit becomes integrated physically and energetically into this new physical body.

 

I'd wager not the same as being dead - plenty of growing life!

 

In Chinese astrology, before the winter solstice there is a period of stillness, entering back into the deepest of the deep. This is a stage of death, where one lets go of everything else and meditates upon the events of the year. The period following the winter solstice is the forming of the seed - not the sprouting yet, the forming. This is the time where the embryo takes shape and the merest hint of an idea for what life will look like in the coming year is formed. This seed gradually matures, then the shell hardens around it and it is manifested into reality, and finally, at the dawn of spring on February 4th it germinates.

 

So the spirit joins the body immediately after conception, but there are many stages, and sometimes things just don't work out. Some say after a certain period of days the spirit reaches a type of maturity (human design?), some say that birth is the final stepping stone - a major one certainly.... but there are also indications that the spirit continues to develop and come more fully into one's self over years and years, and that the same spirit may exist in more than one place at once. Perhaps one body isn't fully able to hold it, perhaps it is doing work elsewhere, maybe even in another physical incarnation. Spirit by definition is less concerned with the distinction between self and other.

 

So what of the unborn spirit? Out of phase? Even Marblehead might agree that when a new life comes into being the mass and energy come from somewhere. The distinction here might be whether or not that energy is completely pure or has a unique pattern to it, and if such a pattern might function like DNA, carrying the memory of change over time.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Daeluin

[Nungali]

I thought the mass and energy already existed ?

 

"This piece of ground , he grow you,"

 

and got converted into the mass and energy of the growing being, and then it reverses after death and goes 'back to earth.'

 

 

 

" When I die I come to earth .

I love this country and this earth...

I'll become earth again

I belong to this earth...

When I die, I become skeleton

I'll be in cave.

That way my spirit stay there.

 

That tree same as me

this piece of ground, he grow you.

 

Rock stays

earth stays

I die and put my bones in cave or earth

soon my bones become earth

all the same

My spirit has gone back to my country,

my mother'

 

Uncle Bill Nidjie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We better be careful Marblehead .....

 

" Native cat said, 'No, they will be dead and never come back.'

Everyone jump on him and kill him.

They burn him so he got plenty spots.

Spots from hot coals.'

 

Edited September 24, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

An unborn child on the other hand, has had their spirit reincarnate into a fetus and the more the fetus grows the more that spirit becomes integrated physically and energetically into this new physical body.

 

Now , if there is any pre-birth state of consciousness physically in the womb (and when ever that starts) and any residual ' clinical postmortem ' consciousness (and however long that lasts) they would seem to be very different states.

 

I'd wager not the same as being dead - plenty of growing life!

 

In Chinese astrology, before the winter solstice there is a period of stillness, entering back into the deepest of the deep. This is a stage of death, where one lets go of everything else and meditates upon the events of the year. The period following the winter solstice is the forming of the seed - not the sprouting yet, the forming. This is the time where the embryo takes shape and the merest hint of an idea for what life will look like in the coming year is formed. This seed gradually matures, then the shell hardens around it and it is manifested into reality, and finally, at the dawn of spring on February 4th it germinates.

 

I love feast of the dead! One day I hope to eat dancing candy skeletons on that day. I've done a few 'ancestor feasts' on ' all hallows' .

 

So the spirit joins the body immediately after conception, but there are many stages, and sometimes things just don't work out. Some say after a certain period of days the spirit reaches a type of maturity (human design?), some say that birth is the final stepping stone - a major one certainly.... but there are also indications that the spirit continues to develop and come more fully into one's self over years and years, and that the same spirit may exist in more than one place at once. Perhaps one body isn't fully able to hold it, perhaps it is doing work elsewhere, maybe even in another physical incarnation. Spirit by definition is less concerned with the distinction between self and other.

 

What is your definition of spirit? For me, I think that's the 'life principle' and it generated by 2 x 1/2 'life principles' coming together.

 

Most ideas of 'spirit' are fairly impersonal and seen as an 'animating principle' ; little flames of one fire or rays of the suns, or we all have a center we all share. I prefer the model that assigns that to 'consciousness' - we all have different levels of consciousness and they all seem to have main function in certain physical locations ; the hind grain .stem, the cerebellum, the frontal lobes, inside the cells (genetic consciousness) , perhaps even the digestive system, in Exo-psychology they say that we all have a 'Circuit 8 level' (the highest) and 'here' , consciousness is 'non-local'.

 

So I am still not convinced we need an animating spirit ... aside from the 'spark of life' .

 

So what of the unborn spirit? Out of phase? Even Marblehead might agree that when a new life comes into being the mass and energy come from somewhere. The distinction here might be whether or not that energy is completely pure or has a unique pattern to it, and if such a pattern might function like DNA, carrying the memory of change over time.

 

I already did that above .

 

But 'soul' ... thats a different kettle of fish ( oops, thats khat - the body)

 

I mean, soul is very different from spirit.

 

 

 

I fully believe in soul

[Daeluin]

I thought the mass and energy already existed ?

 

Exactly. Do you believe we fundamentally change the root of it's shape, or do we change what is necessary and build on top of it thereafter?

 

What is your definition of spirit? For me, I think that's the 'life principle' and it generated by 2 x 1/2 'life principles' coming together.

 

I just work from taoist cosmology. It's fairly simple and fundamental.... I posted a bit on this here.

 

Most ideas of 'spirit' are fairly impersonal and seen as an 'animating principle' ; little flames of one fire or rays of the suns, or we all have a center we all share. I prefer the model that assigns that to 'consciousness' - we all have different levels of consciousness and they all seem to have main function in certain physical locations ; the hind grain .stem, the cerebellum, the frontal lobes, inside the cells (genetic consciousness) , perhaps even the digestive system, in Exo-psychology they say that we all have a 'Circuit 8 level' (the highest) and 'here' , consciousness is 'non-local'.

 

So I am still not convinced we need an animating spirit ... aside from the 'spark of life' .

 

Heaven and Earth are the Spiritual and Physical realities, operating with their own rules, and on this planet there are many layers where we can see the blending of heaven and earth, resulting in different effects. Where these two dynamics rest upon each other there is friction, and QI is created. In humans, the spirit resting upon the physical would create the myriad types of bodily systems, from the more basic, Earthly oriented digestive, circulatory, to the higher vibration types of consciousness.

 

But 'soul' ... thats a different kettle of fish ( oops, thats khat - the body)

 

I mean, soul is very different from spirit.

 

In taoism the 7 po souls return to the earth, and the 3 hun souls return to heaven, by nature of their fundamental energetic makeup, etc. Because the necessary components have been separated, consciousness does not continue on, and the energy of the souls remains trapped in whatever patterns are applicable to it's unique design until the specific conditions arise through which it may reunite in a new merger of the Heavenly and Earthly components. And this cycle continues until one cultivate that consciousness to a pure enough unity so that the hun and po are unable to separate upon physical death.

 

I fully believe in soul

 

[dust]

Yes, I am a Materialist so that limits where I would go in a discussion of this. The was no Marblehead before an egg was fertilized. And there will be no Marblehead after I bite the big one.

 

I'm of a similar persuasion. However, I've been able to identify 3 versions of time (it's morningtime so if I'm forgetting things forgive me)

 

a ) time is an illusion, and therefore meaningless, and therefore infinite (there being none of it, it can never be other than it is)

 

or

 

b ) time is real, but cyclical

 

or

 

c ) time is as described by current physics i.e. laws of physics such as space, time, etc being created and destroyed with the current universe, but with the potential to be re-created in a following universe

 

 

Either way, the result is the same. Stuff keeps going, forever. If so, universes or worlds or situations just like the one we're experiencing right now must arise each an infinite number of times. We must therefore live an infinite number of lives.

 

?

 

Like I said, it's morning...I probably shouldn't be talking like this before afternoon at the earliest..

Edited September 24, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Bearded Dragon]

Bankei talked about this a lot.

[Marblehead]

Hmm ... maybe the Marblehead of last year doesnt exist any more either ?

Now that is an understatement! All about change, you know. Every day is the first day of the rest of my life. And yes, each day of the rest of my life will be different from all the previous days.

 

I think that was the original idea ... it seems to have got a bit confused along the way.

Oh, that happens spontaneously. Hehehe. Confusion (Chaos) is the beginning of a new order.

 

Anthropologists John Monoghan seems to agree with you; " ... it seems apparent that one thing religion or belief helps us do is deal with problems of human life that are significant, persistent, and intolerable. One important way in which religious beliefs accomplish this is by providing a set of ideas about how and why the world is put together that allows people to accommodate anxieties and deal with misfortune."

Well, yeah, I agree with John. And this is a positive thing.

[Marblehead]

An unborn child on the other hand, has had their spirit reincarnate into a fetus and the more the fetus grows the more that spirit becomes integrated physically and energetically into this new physical body.

That almost sounds like something from Carl Jung.

[Marblehead]

 

So what of the unborn spirit? Out of phase? Even Marblehead might agree that when a new life comes into being the mass and energy come from somewhere. The distinction here might be whether or not that energy is completely pure or has a unique pattern to it, and if such a pattern might function like DNA, carrying the memory of change over time.

Actually, on the surface, I do agree with you regarding this paragraph. The details of our understandings will differ though.

 

It has been a long time since I have talked about "energy (that) is completely pure". (This is Wu energy that has never yet been manifested.)

 

Yep. What "I am" has many sources. (I'm not sure of the pureness of any of it though.)

[Marblehead]

I thought the mass and energy already existed ?

It does, but don't tell anyone as they would be disappointed.

[Marblehead]

We better be careful Marblehead .....

 

" Native cat said, 'No, they will be dead and never come back.'

Everyone jump on him and kill him.

They burn him so he got plenty spots.

Spots from hot coals.'

 

Hehehe. Poor fellow got burned all over, didn't he?

 

That happens sometimes when you tell the truth.

[Marblehead]

I'm of a similar persuasion. However, I've been able to identify 3 versions of time (it's morningtime so if I'm forgetting things forgive me)

Well, I "Like"d your post but I don't agree with your conclusion. Oh well.

[Marblehead]

Bankei talked about this a lot.

Who is/was Bankei?

[C T]

Who is/was Bankei?

that Argentinian footballer...

[Marblehead]

that Argentinian footballer...

Little wonder I didn't know.