Is being unborn the same as being dead ?

[Brian]

I thought he was "in charge" of the UN?

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. You guys are jesting me. I went and looked him up. Proper person to mention in this thread though.

[C T]

hehehe.....

 

you fell for it, eh?

 

was fun tho.

[Marblehead]

hehehe.....

 

you fell for it, eh?

 

was fun tho.

Yes, I fell for it. I generally believe people until I have a reason to doubt then I do the research.

 

Yes, it was fun.

[dust]

Well, I "Like"d your post but I don't agree with your conclusion. Oh well.

 

Well, I'm not sure I agree with it either, but I don't know why. Could you tell me why you don't agree with it, and perhaps that'll clarify why I don't feel 100% about it..?

[Marblehead]

You asked why I don't like your conclusion. I felt I should respond to your original post.

I'm of a similar persuasion. However, I've been able to identify 3 versions of time (it's morningtime so if I'm forgetting things forgive me)

 

a ) time is an illusion, and therefore meaningless, and therefore infinite (there being none of it, it can never be other than it is)

 

or

 

b ) time is real, but cyclical

 

or

 

c ) time is as described by current physics i.e. laws of physics such as space, time, etc being created and destroyed with the current universe, but with the potential to be re-created in a following universe

I actually agree with your conceptualization of time even though I have never broken it down the way you have.

 

And, in truth, all three are valid depending on how we view the concept.

 

Really, time is nothing more than how we measure the movement of objects in space. Some things move slower than others. (Hehehe. Some people move slower than others.)

 

Either way, the result is the same. Stuff keeps going, forever. If so, universes or worlds or situations just like the one we're experiencing right now must arise each an infinite number of times.

Your word "must" is a little strong, don't you think? Perhaps "may" would be better? We really don't "know", do we? Therefore, to draw a conclusion based on something we don't know is an error, I think.

 

We must therefore live an infinite number of lives.

 

?

 

Like I said, it's morning...I probably shouldn't be talking like this before afternoon at the earliest..

And your conclusion is ^ in red.

 

Quite a leap of faith!!! Yes, it was early in the morning when you posted. Hehehe.

 

The only conclusion that you could draw from what you said, IMO, is that things are continuously created and destroyed only to be created again. One cannot identify these things until they have been manifested.

[dust]

Your word "must" is a little strong, don't you think? Perhaps "may" would be better? We really don't "know", do we? Therefore, to draw a conclusion based on something we don't know is an error, I think.

 

...

 

Quite a leap of faith!!!

 

Yes...perhaps a leap of faith. There's a part of me that will always want to believe that I have lived, and will again live, an infinite number of times.

 

And yes, my use of "must" was not just too strong, it was wrong.

 

But...infinity. My maths is notoriously patchy, but humour me for a second.

 

If we flip 10 coins at the same time, the probability of them all landing 'heads' is..whatever it is... (0.0009765625 as I calculate..?). But if we decide to keep throwing them, 10 at a time, indefinitely, the probability that they will all land heads at some point surely rises closer and closer to 1? We can't know that the event will happen, but we will be fairly sure that it will, sooner or later.

 

Now, if the universe's matter is finite, but time is infinite, the probability of all things happening rises similarly, doesn't it? I can't know that I'll live again, like this or otherwise, but it seems likely.

 

And if matter and time are both infinite -- not limited to this universe -- it seems quite likely that everything that could happen is happening right now, somewhere..?

[GrandmasterP]

FWIW on our path we reckon that everyone is an eternal spirit inhabiting a temporary body.

When we leave this one we've the option ( not compulsory) of being reincarnated into a fresh body.

Or not.

As we choose.

There's a porous veil between our eternal spirit and our temporal consciousness.

Cultivation renders that veil more porous over time.

Everybody's mediumistic from birth and gets glimpses.

Trained and working mediums get to see more than most cos they practice regularly.

There's a Spiritualist motto that you'd see sometimes painted up as a text behind the platform in old time Spiritualist churches...

"There is no death. There are no dead."

 

Edited September 24, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

Yeah, probability is a neat thing. An educated guess. Weather forecasters do that all the time.

 

No problem with what you said until we get here:

 

And if matter and time are both infinite -- not limited to this universe -- it seems quite likely that everything that could happen is happening right now, somewhere..?

I think you might need back up a second. Time/space are infinite. Matter? I don't think so. There is something in the laws of physics that state that total energy (and matter, as matter is energy) is constant.

 

However, I will agree with the possibility that there is more than this one universe. Dark matter may well be alternate universes operating according to different laws of physics. If this be true then there would be an additional six universes - seven in all.

 

So yes, there could be an additional six of you, and me, living or have lived, or will live within these alternate universes.

 

But then, I don't put much stock in that although I cannot deny the possibility.

[Marblehead]

FWIW on our path we reckon that everyone is an eternal spirit inhabiting a temporary body.

 

Well, you sure went way out there with that post.

 

But yeah, spirituality is what it is.

[C T]

If we flip 10 coins at the same time, the probability of them all landing 'heads' is..whatever it is... (0.0009765625 as I calculate..?). But if we decide to keep throwing them, 10 at a time, indefinitely, the probability that they will all land heads at some point surely rises closer and closer to 1? We can't know that the event will happen, but we will be fairly sure that it will, sooner or later.

 

Now, if the universe's matter is finite, but time is infinite, the probability of all things happening rises similarly, doesn't it? I can't know that I'll live again, like this or otherwise, but it seems likely.

 

And if matter and time are both infinite -- not limited to this universe -- it seems quite likely that everything that could happen is happening right now, somewhere..?

...Closer & closer to 1? Rings a bell! Something i read recently:

 

About a century ago Albert Einstein observed the universe as it appeared, unmoving and static with stars and galaxies fixed in their positions. But he also realized that the gravitational attraction between these bodies would slowly pull them together, although that did not seem to be happening. So he introduced a few calculations into his General Theory of Relativity that created an opposing force to counter gravity. He called it Lambda, and it later became known as the Cosmological Constant. In 1929 Edwin Hubble using the new 100-inch telescope on Mt. Wilson discovered that the stars and galaxies were actually moving away from each other, and that the universe was expanding. Einstein quickly dropped Lambda.

Soon new ideas arose concerning the shape of the universe and the geometries that determine it. Einstein’s theory of relativity entailed a non-Euclidean geometry that resulted in a closed universe because space bends in on itself; it has a finite volume and the shape of a sphere. Ironically, a spaceship traveling in a straight line will eventually return to where it started. In a closed universe gravity will overcome the expansion and begin to contract; all the stars and galaxies will be pulled back into what is called a Big Crunch. In another cosmological model, a universe with very little mass will lack enough gravitational force to stop the expansion, so space is open, or infinite in volume, and the universe will expand forever. There is a third model that is precisely the borderline between a closed and an open universe. It is the exact point between eternal expansion and eventual collapse; cosmologists say that it has reached critical mass density. Amazingly the universe is at that point today; amazing because theorists are at a loss to explain why those values are so precise, and because there is no compelling necessity that they should be. When in perfect balance scientists say that Omega equals one; if less than one, an open universe results; if more, a closed universe. A universe in which Omega equals one is said to be flat. (Referring to its Euclidean geometry). The conservation of energy in a flat universe is maintained due to the perfect equilibrium of all the negative energy of gravity and all the positive energy of matter. Precise measurements of the energy left over from the Big Bang, called the cosmic background radiation, confirmed that Omega equals one. If energy and mass are equivalent, then enough gravity will preserve the balance required to keep Omega at one.

“Paul Steinhardt of Princeton University theorizes that the delicate balance between energy and matter would be suspicious if there were no communication between the two. He proposes that repulsive energy senses the presence of matter and changes its strength and distribution to maintain a balance of densities.” ²⁴ This is consistent with M-theory, and may hint at something mystical going on.

While this may all be very interesting, it is crucial to understanding how M-flux, here associated with dark matter, came to be identified, and why its role is so important in this discussion. When astronomers attempt to tally up all the matter in the universe they come up 90 to 99 percent short of what should be out there. It is interesting to wonder what astronomers are thinking when they look through their telescopes, knowing that maybe they are only seeing one percent of what is in the heavens. The M-flux, or dark matter, exists throughout the universe, but remains elusive until revealing itself through its gravity. This is most apparent around galaxies and clusters of galaxies. As galaxies bunch within huge clumps of dark matter, the light coming from behind these galaxies bends to reveal the outline of this invisible stuff. Super computer simulations predict that bright galaxies will group tightly together under powerful gravitational forces within huge concentrations of dark matter. It is almost as if a parent were gathering its children unto itself.

Recent studies have surprised the scientific community with the realization that the expansion of the universe is not slowing down as expected, in fact, it is accelerating. Some unknown and unseen force, now being called dark energy, is behind this discovery. The repulsive force of inflation may well explain the acceleration.

 

The early universe was smooth and uniform, and very nearly without structure or features. The gravity of M-flux, or dark matter, evenly and smoothly distributed throughout space, remained quietly still for millions of years. Eventually slight perturbations of gravity began to grow from tiny primordial fluctuations. These became the seeds of later galaxy formation once stars began forming. The M-flux slowly clumped and formed halos around regions that had grown to slightly higher concentrations of gaseous matter. As the halos grew more massive, they pulled in and confined small amounts of hydrogen and helium gas; exactly what the first stars were made from. This happened rapidly enough that the material did not fragment, but instead grew into massive hot stars. Light flooded through the universe, ending the cosmic dark ages. Soon numerous other stars flashed into existence. These first stars differed from many stars that exist today because they lacked any heavy elements such as iron and gold, but within their hot cores, under intense pressure and heat, the simple atoms were crushed into more complex heavy elements. These first stars, being as heavy and massive as they were, tended to have short lives, and ended by exploding their outer shells into space. Such stars are called supernovas. Future generations of stars, such as our sun, could now form from this new material. Without heavy metals, life could not have evolved on Earth. We, quite literally, along with our cars and televisions, are the products of stellar forces, not only physically but as sentient beings as well. In our nomenclature this is the transition from negative M-flux to positive M-field. In terms of physics the negative false vacuum decayed into matter that accreted into stars with an attractive gravitational force.

[GrandmasterP]

Well, you sure went way out there with that post.

 

But yeah, spirituality is what it is.

 

It suits me others will have different views and all of us have as much chance of being 'close'.

Nobody knows for sure that's a fact.

Physics I do like.

Back in Grammar ( High) school year 1 term 1 the Physics guy told us in lesson 1.

" Energy can neither be created or destroyed."

 

Seemed fair enough to me as far as covering all the bases went so I kinda zoned him out after that and dropped Physics at the first opportunity.

 

[Marblehead]

Seemed fair enough to me as far as covering all the bases went so I kinda zoned him out after that and dropped Physics at the first opportunity.

Hehehe. You made him not exist.

 

Yep. Differences of opinion are one of the many things that makes us each special and unique.

 

And we cannot stretch a pigeons legs and then say it is a flamingo.

[Silent Answers]

 

I'm of a similar persuasion. However, I've been able to identify 3 versions of time (it's morningtime so if I'm forgetting things forgive me)

 

a ) time is an illusion, and therefore meaningless, and therefore infinite (there being none of it, it can never be other than it is)

 

or

 

b ) time is real, but cyclical

 

or

 

c ) time is as described by current physics i.e. laws of physics such as space, time, etc being created and destroyed with the current universe, but with the potential to be re-created in a following universe

 

 

Either way, the result is the same. Stuff keeps going, forever. If so, universes or worlds or situations just like the one we're experiencing right now must arise each an infinite number of times. We must therefore live an infinite number of lives.

 

?

 

Like I said, it's morning...I probably shouldn't be talking like this before afternoon at the earliest..

D) Time (as a side effect of and therefore necessary for space) is the most fundamental feature of the 3D universe, because without it even motion could not occur. Edited September 24, 2014 by Silent Answers

[Silent Answers]

Yeah, probability is a neat thing. An educated guess. Weather forecasters do that all the time.

 

No problem with what you said until we get here:

I think you might need back up a second. Time/space are infinite. Matter? I don't think so. There is something in the laws of physics that state that total energy (and matter, as matter is energy) is constant.

 

However, I will agree with the possibility that there is more than this one universe. Dark matter may well be alternate universes operating according to different laws of physics. If this be true then there would be an additional six universes - seven in all.

 

So yes, there could be an additional six of you, and me, living or have lived, or will live within these alternate universes.

 

But then, I don't put much stock in that although I cannot deny the possibility.

How did you get the number 7, MH?

[dust]

I think you might need back up a second. Time/space are infinite. Matter? I don't think so. There is something in the laws of physics that state that total energy (and matter, as matter is energy) is constant.

Bah, laws of physics shmysics. They'll eventually discover that they're wrong about it all all over again!

 

I can't get my head around the idea that existence has a boundary. But I don't suppose that's something a human will ever be able to understand..

 

If this be true then there would be an additional six universes - seven in all.

Also wondering why 7?

 

 

...Closer & closer to 1? Rings a bell! Something i read recently:

I might need a week or so to digest this!

 

Very interesting, there is a lot I don't really comprehend but:

This is consistent with M-theory, and may hint at something mystical going on.

does sound like there is some kind of 'desire' or 'effort' to keep it all going..

 

 

D) Time (as a side effect of and therefore necessary for space) is the most fundamental feature of the 3D universe, because without it even motion could not occur.

Ah. So if space is infinite, and time is a byproduct of space, time is also infinite? But if space is finite, so is time -- but going back to ( c ), if time and space were to collapse back in the Big Crunch, they would surely start all over again?

Edited September 24, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Rara]

I can only imagine that it's the same feeling...

 

...whatever that feeling was.

 

I'm going to say yes? (Question mark very important there )

[Marblehead]

How did you get the number 7, MH?

I used my fingers.

 

Actually, according to my understanding, only 4 percent of the universe is observable. And because of the effects classified as Dark Matter it is estimated that 24 percent of the universe is Dark matter. 24 divided by 4 equals 6. 6 + 1 = 7.

[Marblehead]

Bah, laws of physics shmysics. They'll eventually discover that they're wrong about it all all over again!

 

I can't get my head around the idea that existence has a boundary. But I don't suppose that's something a human will ever be able to understand..

Yeah, but that's the best I can do right now. I haven't accepted quantum physics into my understands yet so I can't talk about that.

 

But sure. we make our best guess based on what we can know and then when our equipment gets better and we have better understandings we change the way we view whatever.

 

Also wondering why 7?

I did that in the above post.

[Silent Answers]

 

Ah. So if space is infinite, and time is a byproduct of space, time is also infinite? But if space is finite, so is time -- but going back to ( c ), if time and space were to collapse back in the Big Crunch, they would surely start all over again?

Time is a measure for how long it takes you to cross a certain distance through space, depending on your speed. As light speed is limited (and cannot be added to) it would suggest that either space/time itself sets the speed limit, and therefore neither are infinite ...or that photons resist moving faster, assumably because that's the point at which they would burn up due to the eventual friction of speed vs matter? (I'm guessing here)

 

Then theres neutrinos, which can 'possibly' pass right through dense matter without being slowed, creating a loop hole in the universal speed limit. The hunt is still on for those, but if e=mc2 is true, then space would have to be infinite, otherwise the neutrinos would eventually be able to leave our universe's boundaries and upset the balance.

 

 

Then again if we look at the universe we do know, *things* seem finite. If the amount of energy is always the same ... and space is growing/expanding at an increasing rate...eventually space will be so stretched out and diluted, that nothing will be able to exist and clump together in it's infinity. Like a ripple in the water fading out as it grows.

 

I wrote more but then it just started getting too confusing haha.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Silent Answers

[3bob]

Marblehead's question - but it interested me so much I wanted to split and examine it;

 

(Hope ya dont mind Marbles?)

 

 

 

Can you start a thread with that question? What a great question! (Ah heck, I'll do it.)

 

If you have never been dead , and death and being unborn are the same, have you ever been unborn?

 

If you have been unborn but never have died , can they be the same thing?

 

I have wanted to track this thing down ... the 'Hamnamut ' ( sic probably) - cant remember ... I read somewhere that it is 'another' state or level of the 'soul' aside from the main 4 ( in some types of Kabbalism) that is the pre-birth state. But I haven't been able to find a reference to it since. Anyone ... maybe its an Egyptian thing ? ( sounds a bit Egyptian? )

 

Some indigenous here say the prebirth state is a 'germ-child' that lives in the local sacred 'increase' site 'i/ A man takes it home and gives it to his wife and then it passes into her.

 

I tried writing a poem from that space once ... I really liked it but it surprised me a bit - it came out a bit sorta revolutionary . it was probably influenced by the Louis Macneice one below.

 

I also heard one written by another from that perspective (more generally) from a 15 year old girl - brilliant ... dont know where she got it from ?

 

 

Prayer Before Birth.

 

I am not yet born; O hear me.

Let not the bloodsucking bat or the rat or the stoat or the

club-footed ghoul come near me.

 

I am not yet born, console me.

I fear that the human race may with tall walls wall me,

with strong drugs dope me, with wise lies lure me,

on black racks rack me, in blood-baths roll me.

 

I am not yet born; provide me

With water to dandle me, grass to grow for me, trees to talk

to me, sky to sing to me, birds and a white light

in the back of my mind to guide me.

 

I am not yet born; forgive me

For the sins that in me the world shall commit, my words

when they speak me, my thoughts when they think me,

my treason engendered by traitors beyond me,

my life when they murder by means of my

hands, my death when they live me.

 

I am not yet born; rehearse me

In the parts I must play and the cues I must take when

old men lecture me, bureaucrats hector me, mountains

frown at me, lovers laugh at me, the white

waves call me to folly and the desert calls

me to doom and the beggar refuses

my gift and my children curse me.

 

I am not yet born; O hear me,

Let not the man who is beast or who thinks he is God

come near me.

 

I am not yet born; O fill me

With strength against those who would freeze my

humanity, would dragoon me into a lethal automaton,

would make me a cog in a machine, a thing with

one face, a thing, and against all those

who would dissipate my entirety, would

blow me like thistledown hither and

thither or hither and thither

like water held in the

hands would spill me.

 

Let them not make me a stone and let them not spill me.

Otherwise kill me.

 

 

Louis Macneice

 

No to the question

[Silent Answers]

I used my fingers.

 

Actually, according to my understanding, only 4 percent of the universe is observable. And because of the effects classified as Dark Matter it is estimated that 24 percent of the universe is Dark matter. 24 divided by 4 equals 6. 6 + 1 = 7.

Who's to say our universe isn't on the inside of another dark matter 'bubble'....and that there aren't more such places inside the 6 you have defined from the outside

[Nungali]

Exactly. Do you believe we fundamentally change the root of it's shape, or do we change what is necessary and build on top of it thereafter?

 

If I understand what you mean by 'change the root of it's shape' then, no. I think that different forms of energy have (like us) a 'potential field' that it must operate within boundaries that may not be fully understood but also contains its own potentials to go beyond its normal operating boundaries to its fullest extent, but not beyond its potential boundaries. We utilize that process within our energy systems , I wouldnt say we fundamentally change the root of the shape of energy.

 

This is also another definition I have of 'spirit' - as a type of 5th element or even 'quintessence' - it is active and passive; what I say above defines it in a way - one is the spirit or undefined energy, then when it takes form it gives boundaries of the 'spirit within' a thing ... otherwise all would dissolve into .... undifferentiated energy.

 

Humans can become and do pretty amazing things ... but not things that are beyond a human ... I am still not sure of that 'boundary'.

 

I just work from taoist cosmology. It's fairly simple and fundamental.... I posted a bit on this here.

 

 

Heaven and Earth are the Spiritual and Physical realities, operating with their own rules, and on this planet there are many layers where we can see the blending of heaven and earth, resulting in different effects. Where these two dynamics rest upon each other there is friction, and QI is created. In humans, the spirit resting upon the physical would create the myriad types of bodily systems, from the more basic, Earthly oriented digestive, circulatory, to the higher vibration types of consciousness.

 

 

In taoism the 7 po souls return to the earth, and the 3 hun souls return to heaven, by nature of their fundamental energetic makeup, etc. Because the necessary components have been separated, consciousness does not continue on, and the energy of the souls remains trapped in whatever patterns are applicable to it's unique design until the specific conditions arise through which it may reunite in a new merger of the Heavenly and Earthly components. And this cycle continues until one cultivate that consciousness to a pure enough unity so that the hun and po are unable to separate upon physical death.

 

 

 

I have studied a fair bit of comparative religion, cultural anthropology and 'field experience' in both - for nearly 40 years now.

 

SOOO many systems work on an 'ideal' set of 3 with 7 attached somehow - in less 'ideal' concepts. (and the 3/4 relationship giving 12).

 

My view is that it is generated from the Collective Unconscious ( the real one, not any speculated type); the triune 'ideal' set is everywhere evident in nature and the 7 is based on the 7 celestial 'moving' lights ( and the 3/4/ & 12 on the construction of the hand).

[Nungali]

Hehehe. Poor fellow got burned all over, didn't he?

 

That happens sometimes when you tell the truth.

 

The funny part about that is the local Kooris referred to me in their broad accent with this " E - belingim - ballingup - from -ballingen".

 

(i wish you could hear the way they say it )

 

: He is - a cheeky fellow - like a native cat - from - that town with the same name (The town's name stems from their name for a native cat who is 'cheeky' .

[Nungali]

Who's to say our universe isn't on the inside of another dark matter 'bubble'....and that there aren't more such places inside the 6 you have defined from the outside

 

Because there are 7 ....

 

http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-15-seven-superuniverses