Is being unborn the same as being dead ?

[4bsolute]

Essentially, yes.

 

You in your essence, can never be born and never die. So you are unborn and immortal at the same time. A paradox.

 

The ideas/concepts of birth and death are all coming from the mind and it's thoughts. The mind dies and is born again every second. And in this state it continous infinitely.

 

What remains, what is inbetween? LIfe, living, a state of simply being one's Self. You are. That is the only reality that there is, free from the mind, free from thought.

Edited September 25, 2014 by 4bsolute

[Silent Answers]

 

Because there are 7 ....

 

http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-15-seven-superuniverses

Well, I will definitely try to give this beast a proper read when I get home. From first glance, it's a book written by an alien who likes the number 7 and Jesus...but not so much into evidence and science fact.

 

I'll admit that is based on just a quick 5 minute browse, so no doubt I'm missing a lot of the key points. Like I said, I'll give it a proper look later....However, if we really have to go with the number 7, I'd probably just stick to MH's explanation - It's a lot shorter!

[Marblehead]

Who's to say our universe isn't on the inside of another dark matter 'bubble'....and that there aren't more such places inside the 6 you have defined from the outside

Likely no one. However, you would need justify your opinions and numbers just as I have above.

[Marblehead]

Because there are 7 ....

 

http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-15-seven-superuniverses

Well, we agree on the number - 7. After that things become very different.

[dust]

Time is a measure for how long it takes you to cross a certain distance through space, depending on your speed. As light speed is limited (and cannot be added to)

 

Are we sure that the speed of light is the fastest speed?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light

"special relativity does not forbid the existence of particles that travel faster than light at all times"

 

 

Then again if we look at the universe we do know, *things* seem finite. If the amount of energy is always the same ... and space is growing/expanding at an increasing rate...eventually space will be so stretched out and diluted, that nothing will be able to exist and clump together in it's infinity. Like a ripple in the water fading out as it grows.

 

My brain hurts. Is it expanding at an increasing rate? We've got different theories on this...?

 

This is all getting a little off-topic isn't it? My fault...suffice to say, I see no difference between the "state of being unborn" and the "state of being dead"

[C T]

Because there are 7 ....

 

http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-15-seven-superuniverses

Well, if folks like Michael Duff, Brian Greene and Edward Witten can fast-track their research, in due time we may start to hear expansions in plausible theories of infinite, parallel multiverses. (think superstrings and supermembranes la la la....)

 

I've only glanced briefly, but this is how their current research, which some are already familiar with im sure, looks like (warning: brain-frying possibility ) --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory

 

Interesting video --

 

[Marblehead]

I see no difference between the "state of being unborn" and the "state of being dead"

I like that.

[GrandmasterP]

I like that.

 

Necrosis?

[Marblehead]

Necrosis?

No, apoptosis.

[9th]

 

I wouldn't be able to as I have never been dead yet. A thought: Is being unborn the same as being dead?

 

 

 

XVIII

Further, Mahamati, those who, afraid of sufferings arising from the discrimination of birth and death, seek for Nirvana, do not know that birth and death and Nirvana are not to be separated the one from the other; and, seeing that all things subject to discrimination have no reality, imagine that Nirvana consists in the further annihilation of the senses and their fields. They are not aware, Mahamati, of the fact that Nirvana is the Alayavijnana where a revulsion takes place by self-realization. Therefore, Mahamati, those who are stupid talk of the trinity of vehicles and not of the state of Mind-only where there are no shadows. Therefore, Mahamati, those who do not understand the teachings of the Tathagatas of the past, present, and future, concerning the external world, which is of Mind itself, cling to the notion that there is a world outside what is seen of the Mind and, Mahamati, go on rolling themselves along the wheel of birth and death.

 

XIX

Further, Mahamati, according to the teaching of the Tathagatas of the past, present, and future, all things are unborn. Why? Because they have no reality, being manifestations of Mind itself; and, Mahamati, as they are not born of being and non-being, they are unborn. Mahamati, all things are like the horns of the hare, horse, donkey, or camel, but the ignorant and simple-minded, who are given up to their false and erroneous imaginations, discriminate things where they are not; therefore, all things are unborn. That all things are in their self-nature unborn, Mahamati, belongs to the realm of self-realization attained by noble wisdom, and does not belong essentially to the realm of dualistic discrimination cherished by the ignorant and simple-minded.

 

The self-nature and the characteristic marks of body, property, and abode evolve when the Alayavijnana is conceived of by the ignorant as grasping and grasped; and then they fall into a dualistic view of existence where they recognize its rise, abiding, and disappearance, cherishing the idea that all things are born and subject to discrimination as to being and non-being. Therefore, Mahamati, you should discipline yourself therein [i.e. in self-realization].

 

_{- THE LANKAVATARA SUTRA}

[Nungali]

I think in that Urantia Book there is talk about 'soul transporters' or something and the soul nursery where .....

 

its sorta like : ( yes - likes the number 7, aliens and jesus ) but it also seems to want to try and explain cosmos and things on a near Vedic level of complexity for the modern 'science minded Christian' ... or something like that. ... aside from a personal eye witness day to fay account of Jesus life on earth ²

[Marblehead]

I have, many times, had one of my Buddhist friends ask me to put my finger on my "I am".

 

In return I will now ask anyone to put their finger on their "soul".

 

The processes of birth apply to all living things. The tree did not exist until the seed germinated. However, potential existed in the seed prior to germinating.

[Nungali]

I have, many times, had one of my Buddhist friends ask me to put my finger on my "I am".

 

In return I will now ask anyone to put their finger on their "soul".

 

I need a dolly then I will show you on the dolly where the old man in the robe with the long hair and beard touched me.

 

or

 

Not unless you put your finger on 'reason' first ( I will also except a finger placed on ethics or dread )

 

or even

 

<makes a big circle around own body and a bit of space that extends out to .... >

The processes of birth apply to all living things. The tree did not exist until the seed germinated.

 

exactly ... it was only a potential

 

<puts finger on the seed>

 

However, potential existed in the seed prior to germinating.

 

Tree got 'soul' , bro

 

" See that big tree ?

 

That tree same as me

This piece of ground he grow you."

 

[Marblehead]

Well, perhaps trees have souls too. (I have my doubts though, of course.)

 

And I agree with Bill; tell your story if you have one. (If you don't have one yet it is probably time to start creating one.)

 

To tell other people' story is pretty much a waste of time because they already told their own story.

 

And it would be nice if it were one of those sweet stories you could use to bore you kids to sleep at night with.

[GrandmasterP]

Trees may not have soul but their roots go way back.

 

[9th]

The more ordinary expressions given to the highest reality known as Citta are Tathata, "suchness" or "thusness", Satyata, "the state of being true", Bhutata, "the state of being real", Dharmadhatu, "realm of truth", Nirvana, the Permanent (nitya), Sameness (samata), the One (advaya), Cessation (nirodha), the Formless (animitta), Emptiness (sunyata), etc.

 

From these descriptions it is found natural for Mahayanists psychologically to deny the existence of an ego-soul or ego-substance in the Alaya, and ontologically to insist that the tragedy of life comes from believing in the substantiality or finality of an individual object. The former is technically called the doctrine of Pudgalanairatmya, egolessness of persons,¹ and the latter that of Dharmanairatmya, egolessness of things; the one denies the reality of an ego-soul and the other the ultimacy of an individual object.

 

Superficially, this denial of an Atman in persons and individual objects sounds negative and productive of no moral signification. But when one understands what is ultimately meant by Cittamatra (Mind-only) or by Vivikta-dharma (the Solitary), the negations are on the plane of relativity and intellection.

 

The term "the Middle" (madhyama), meaning "the Middle Way'', does not occur in the Lanka proper except in its Sagathakam portion. But the idea that the truth is not found in the dualistic way of interpreting existence, that it is beyond the category of being and non-being, is everywhere emphasised in the Lanka. In fact, we can say that one of the principal theses of the Lanka is to establish the Absolute which makes a world of particulars possible but which is not to be grasped by means of being and non-being (astina-stitva). This Absolute is the Middle Way of the Madhyamaka school.

 

¹ The conception of the Tathagata-garbha is not to be confused with that of a Pudgala or Atman.

 

This going beyond all forms of dualism, however differently it may be expressed, whether as being and non-being, or as oneness and manyness, or as this and that, or as causation and no-causation, or as form and no-form, or as assertion and negation, or as Samsara and Nirvana, or as ignorance and knowledge, or as work and no-work, or as good and evil, or as purity and defilement, or as ego and non-ego, or as worldly and super-worldly, ad infinitum —this going beyond a world of oppositions and contrasts constitutes one of the most significant thoughts of the Mahayana. There is nothing real as long as we remain entangled in the skein of relativity, and our sufferings will never come to an end. We must therefore endeavour to take hold of reality, but this reality is not something altogether solitary. For in this case no one of us will be able to have even a glimpse of it, and if we had, it will turn into something standing in opposition to this world of relativity, which means the loss of solitariness, that is, the solitary now forms part of this world.

 

Thus, according to Buddhist philosophy, reality must be grasped in this world and by this world, for it is that "Beyond which is also Within". The Lankacompares it to the moon in water or a flower in a mirror. It is within and yet outside, it is outside and yet within. This aspect of reality is described as "unobtainable" or "unattainable" (anupalabdha). And just because it is unobtainable in a world of particulars, the latter from the point of view of reality is like a dream, like a mirage, and so on. The subtlest relation of reality to the world is beyond description, it yields its secrets only to him who has actually realised it in himself by means of noble wisdom (aryajnana or prajna). This realisation is also a kind of knowledge though different from what is generally known by this name.

 

Without a theory of cognition, therefore, Mahayana philosophy becomes incomprehensible. The Lanka is quite explicit in assuming two forms of knowledge: the one for grasping the absolute or entering into the realm of Mind-only, and the other for understanding existence in its dualistic aspect in which logic prevails and the Vijnanas are active. The latter is designated Discrimination (vikalpa) in the Lanka and the former transcendental wisdom or knowledge (prajna). To distinguish these two forms of knowledge is most essential in Buddhist philosophy.