Infinity Posted September 24, 2014 Just thoughts... Am I dreaming and does my dream/world reflect me/my vibration? Are all players my projections? Is all their pain my pain, their joy my joy? Is all my pain/joy self inflicted? If it's a dream how do I control it? Even if I wake I will still be dreaming, just consciously? ∞ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
woodcarver Posted September 24, 2014 According to chuang tzu... you, he, and confucius are all dreaming. but i'm not any of those so I can't tell for sure Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 25, 2014 It may well be that you are just someone else's dream. I'm sure I am. I hope they never wake up. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted September 25, 2014 Just thoughts... Am I dreaming and does my dream/world reflect me/my vibration? Are all players my projections? Is all their pain my pain, their joy my joy? Is all my pain/joy self inflicted? If it's a dream how do I control it? Even if I wake I will still be dreaming, just consciously? ∞ I think there is great value in considering it true and not true. To keep the two considerations like heads and tail of a coin. In the tic toc everyday world it is not true. I am typing what you're reading from a distance. I am not you, I am separate with a long history, as is everyone else. Yet considering the other side of the coin, allows you to take ultimate responsibility for the world. It becomes a Rorschach test reflecting your mindset. You see and interpret it differently. You live a better life, rich in synchronicity. Robert Moss's work is all about seeing'real' life as dream, and taking dreams as seriously as 'real' life. He has some good stuff on the shamanic side of dreamwork. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 25, 2014 (edited) Just thoughts... Am I dreaming and does my dream/world reflect me/my vibration? You are part of a dream ... however much of it becomes 'your dreaming' depends on how 'in sync' you are with the dream. Are all players my projections? The are projections from the dream. Is all their pain my pain, their joy my joy? however much of it becomes 'your dreaming' depends on how 'in sync' you are with the dream. Is all my pain/joy self inflicted? No. If it's a dream how do I control it? You cant . Even if I wake I will still be dreaming, just consciously? Its not 'you' that wakes up ... it is the dreamer. Edited September 25, 2014 by Nungali 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Infinity Posted September 25, 2014 My intial questions should have gone through my review board as I got carried away mixing some queries I have. Thanks for your answers. I guess I was saying in a round about way (wrong way). This seems like a dream sometimes and I guess there are other 'real dreams' that exist and I can tune into. This is real and unreal. Sometimes emptiness envelops me more and I feel like a veil will be lifted and I can go to other places and or not be here which would then be there, which kind of makes this a dream. The only way I will solve this is by my own experience I guess. Thanks again. ∞ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThisLife Posted September 25, 2014 Just thoughts... Am I dreaming and does my dream/world reflect me/my vibration? Are all players my projections? Is all their pain my pain, their joy my joy? Is all my pain/joy self inflicted? If it's a dream how do I control it? Even if I wake I will still be dreaming, just consciously? ∞ * Call it a dream. It does not change anything. Ludwig Wittgenstein * 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 27, 2014 (edited) My intial questions should have gone through my review board as I got carried away mixing some queries I have. Thanks for your answers. I guess I was saying in a round about way (wrong way). This seems like a dream sometimes and I guess there are other 'real dreams' that exist and I can tune into. This is real and unreal. Yes, it is. That is why, at times, a round about way is necessary. We have different levels of awareness inside us. For different reasons we function using a combination of different levels - think of a graphic equalizer . Sometimes our 'anchoring in reality' is not as strong as at other times. Sometimes we are more tuned into a realm where time and location seem more fluid concepts. Sometimes emptiness envelops me more and I feel like a veil will be lifted and I can go to other places and or not be here which would then be there, which kind of makes this a dream. The only way I will solve this is by my own experience I guess. What needs 'solving' ? Just needs a bit of 'tweaking' IMO ... or you might just need a bit more understanding of what is going on so you you can use it better for your purposes. Edited September 27, 2014 by Nungali 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted September 27, 2014 (edited) Once upon a time, Chuang Tzu dreamed that he was a butterfly, flying about enjoying itself. It did not know that it was Chuang Tzu. Suddenly he awoke, and veritably was Chuang Tzu again. He did not know whether it was Chuang Tzu dreaming that he was a butterfly, or whether it was the butterfly dreaming that it was Chuang Tzu. Between Chuang Tzu and the butterfly there must be some distinction. This is a case of what is called the transformation of things. Edited September 27, 2014 by GrandmasterP Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 27, 2014 ... the transformation of things. A very important concept in Taoism. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThisLife Posted September 27, 2014 (edited) Once upon a time, Chuang Tzu dreamed that he was a butterfly, flying about enjoying itself. It did not know that it was Chuang Tzu. Suddenly he awoke, and veritably was Chuang Tzu again. He did not know whether it was Chuang Tzu dreaming that he was a butterfly, or whether it was the butterfly dreaming that it was Chuang Tzu. Between Chuang Tzu and the butterfly there must be some distinction. This is a case of what is called the transformation of things. I was absolutely speechless with awe and appreciation when I first came across that story by Chuang Tzu. For anyone who is attracted to Eastern thinking it has to be one of the corner pins of that type of world view. As a story / analogy,... it simply cannot be improved upon. However, for myself, I've now come across it so many times that it has sadly lost it's ability to shake up my habitual thinking any more. My mind has grown so used to it that it automatically kicks in with the thought,..."Aah yes,that lovely story again. It means,...(fill in the blank)." And nothing happens for me any more. I guess it's the nature of our human mind that it always does this kind of thing. The mind likes to remain comfortable in its familiar cocoon of habits. So, I have to keep finding new stories to keep my mind on its toes, so to speak. As a butterfly story, I find that the one below that I came across some time ago, somehow still has the ability to stop my familiar thinking patterns. Mostly, I guess, because I've never been able to figure out what it means. And yet, somehow I feel convinced that it carries a great depth of thought locked within it. It seems to behave like a Zen koan for me,... I keep coming back to it, circling around, looking at it from every angle, but can never quite grasp what it's saying. Perhaps it will do something for you : * * * Suppose someone were to say, “Imagine this butterfly exactly as it is, but ugly instead of beautiful.” Ludwig Wittgenstein . Edited September 27, 2014 by ThisLife 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 27, 2014 Okay ..... ...... hmmmm .... it's still beautiful .... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 27, 2014 If I make it ugly (the butterfly) ... really ugly ..... ... then everything becomes ugly Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted September 27, 2014 (edited) Its old mum loves it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Edited September 27, 2014 by GrandmasterP Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 27, 2014 (edited) But if we forget the concepts of beautiful and ugly, well then, ... Edited September 27, 2014 by Marblehead 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted September 27, 2014 Beer is said to help in relation to 'ugly'. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLB Posted September 27, 2014 There is a diabolic quality to many dreams that seem designed to engender the greatest amount of anxiety possible within the context of unfolding circumstances and the choices made within them. There are times in waking life where this relentless quality emerges. Those are really bad times. There is some kind of connection between the two realms. It is hard to get the mind around the idea. What I have found to be most disturbing is when I awake from a dream where I have done something I don't want to have done and find myself asking: Did I actually do that thing? In that moment, the "real" is like an alibi clearing me of a charge made for a crime enacted by me in another life. Doppelganger. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 27, 2014 Beer is said to help in relation to 'ugly'. Yep. There is an old Country and Western song from back in the 1950s that sang about that. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 27, 2014 There is a diabolic quality ... Excellent considerations. But dreams lie to us too so don't take them too seriously. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) There is a diabolic quality to many dreams that seem designed to engender the greatest amount of anxiety possible within the context of unfolding circumstances and the choices made within them. There are times in waking life where this relentless quality emerges. Those are really bad times. There is some kind of connection between the two realms. It is hard to get the mind around the idea. I suggest 'cleaning up' one's dreams. If you can make changes and 'create habits' in your dream would, they will start to manifest in other parts of your life. What I have found to be most disturbing is when I awake from a dream where I have done something I don't want to have done and find myself asking: Did I actually do that thing? In that moment, the "real" is like an alibi clearing me of a charge made for a crime enacted by me in another life. Doppelganger. I will go back into the dream after awakening and re-do or address what I thought was done wrong .... after a period of this it starts to happen in the dream 'automatically' ... and then into your conscious life. Edited September 28, 2014 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 28, 2014 Curious things dreams and I do believe they can effect our day to some extent. I thought I would stick this here (just for fun) ; it's part of the film script I wrote about my experience in the film industry - 'Reza' is my Iranian boss. ----------------------- SCENE EXT. BEACH. DAY. [ FX – Dreamscape.] Reza is lying on an idyllic beach. Totally enjoying himself. He goes to sleep. … He wakes up and looks out at the beach but the ocean is gone and he is in a desert. REZA “Where is water? … Must be low tide.” He walks down the beach / sand dunes and sees something in the distance. He squints. [ FX – heat wavered silhouette of a camel train.] CUT TO - Reza staggering through a desert. REZA “I need a drink … it’s been so long since I had a drink … I’m dying of thirst.” He falls to the sand. SCENE INT. BELLYDANCERS TENT. NIGHT. [Dreamscape continues] Reza comes-to in a lavish, exotic mid-eastern style tent. Woman are belly dancing and offering food on trays. One offers a hookah. Another is reading poetry from a book. Reza lays back and enjoys it. [ SFX – Alarm clock ringing.] The woman all look up surprised. BELLYDANCER “What is this strange noise that has intruded into our world?” REZA (Pissed off) “Oh no! Not now!” The Bellydancer comes up to him and mops his brow with her veil. BELLYDANCER “What troubles thee my love?” REZA (Cranky) “I have to go to work.” BELLYDANCER “Work? What is this strange word that has intruded into our world?” REZA “I have to go.” BELLYDANCER “Oh no my love! Do not leave us, stay here with us!” OTHER BELLYDANCERS (Chorus) “Stay … please do not go … stay here with us ... ” (etc.) BELLYDANCER “Do not go to that strange place of harsh noises …” [ SFX – Alarm is still ringing.] Bellydancer covers her ears. “ And strange harsh words … this ‘work’ thing sounds evil … do not go!” REZA “I don’t want to but ….” [ SFX – ringing louder.] SCENE; INT. 'CAMP DEATH' location – REZA’S BEDROOM. PRE-DAWN. Reza slaps the alarm clock and gets out of bed. He goes about his morning preparations very cranky and grumpy. SCENE EXT. LOCATION 1. CATERING AREA. DAWN. Reza is setting the breakfast tables, he is banging things around and is in a bad mood. Massoumeh is making fruit juice at the other table and watching. She brings Reza a juice. MASSOUMEH “What’s up?” REZA “Oh nothing, I don’t know, I’m just in a bad mood. Today, it seems this whole job just isn’t worth it. Why do I bother? …. I go to sleep and , bing! Next instant I have to get up again … or I can’t sleep all night until an hour before I have to get up.” MASSOUMEH “”Did you sleep last night?” REZA “Well, that’s the weird bit, I did sleep pretty good last night. I had some sort of dream about being at the beach, but I can’t quiet remember it. For some reason, from the moment I got out of bed I’ve been really pissed off.” 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 28, 2014 I was able to visualize being in the tent very well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLB Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) Nungali, I see the path that would reconfiigure the dreams. With great respect for that method,I have been trying to accept responsibility for the things done in that other place as an alternate approach. Not sure where the path will take me. But the two shall be one. Edited September 28, 2014 by PLB Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure of what you mean about taking responsibility in that other place ? Be very wary of thinking the same values, reactions and responsibilities apply there. One of the biggest mistakes in mythology, (regarding tales of individuation, psychic or 'soul' development, shamanic journey, etc) and similar stories, is to apply what is relevant in the conscious ego world to what is required in the unconscious, 'internal mythological' world. How these two diverse things 'slot into' one other; that is how these two become one. Edited September 29, 2014 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
