There is no such thing as "empty mind"

[4bsolute]

The mind consists of thoughts

 

so for the sake of using words to describe what we can witness as a "state" of no thoughts, falsly put as "empty mind" is correctly put as state of "no mind".

 

There is no such thing as an "empty mind". If there are no thoughts, there is no mind.

 

 

All the best.

[Cheshire Cat]

The mind consists of thoughts

 

so for the sake of using words to describe what we can witness as a "state" of no thoughts, falsly put as "empty mind" is correctly put as state of "no mind".

 

There is no such thing as an "empty mind". If there are no thoughts, there is no mind.

 

 

All the best.

 

Accordingly, this stone has reached the state of no-mind.

 

Edited September 25, 2014 by DAO rain TAO

[Marblehead]

The mind consists of thoughts

 

so for the sake of using words to describe what we can witness as a "state" of no thoughts, falsly put as "empty mind" is correctly put as state of "no mind".

 

There is no such thing as an "empty mind". If there are no thoughts, there is no mind.

 

 

All the best.

I wish I could disagree with you but I can't. But I will still use the term "Empty-minded Meditation".

[3bob]

Dribbling terms around : mind is the thing or all things, and if an apparent individual part of that thing or tool is not being used and thus resting or set down then that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

Further, without there being a connection between no-thing and thing, thing wouldn't exist but since such a connection is unbreakable, inherent and part of the transformation - as in the T.T.C., chapter one - it then becomes clear that there really is no dichotomy between the Mystery that Tao may seem to be and the "Ten thousand" things that may seem so concrete... not unlike using an analogy of the seeming mystery of a magnetic field that is coupled to and transformed through an electrical transformer resulting in amperage and voltage coming out the other side via wired connections. Also the individual electrons (or beings) on this side of such a transformer have a hard time knowing how they got from a unified magnetic field on the other side, especially since they can't really remain as only an individual and and seemingly independent electron if they RETURN to such a field which they never really left and yet can't exist without at the same time.

Edited September 25, 2014 by 3bob

[soaring crane]

 

Accordingly, this stone has reached the state of no-mind.

 

 

As have all stones.

 

A friend told me that he'd spent the day at a museum, "looking at old rocks". I replied, "all rocks are old ".

[silent thunder]

As have all stones.

 

A friend told me that he'd spent the day at a museum, "looking at old rocks. I replied," all rocks are old ".

We walked on some very new stone in Hawai'i recently...

[C T]

I dont agree that the mind is like some thought vessel. Just like a flute is not a vessel for melody.

 

Mind is more like a vast, empty plot of land which has potential to yield exactly what has been sowed.

A blank mandala field...

 

Empty mind is like clearing the fields after each harvest to ready for next season's crop.

 

You reap exactly what is sown. Old adage.

[manitou]

Empty mind could perhaps be described as the witness state.

[forestofclarity]

Another way to look at empty mind is not that empty means "nothing" in the Western sense, but that empty means "not fixed." In this line of thought, all minds are empty because they are not fixed. Consider this from Takuan Soho:

 

 

If the mind congeals in one place and remains with one thing, it is like frozen water and is unable to be used freely: ice that can neither wash hands nor feet. When the mind is melted and is used like water, extending throughout the body, it can be sent to wherever one wants to send it.

 

This is the Right Mind.

[joeblast]

Empty mind is a condition of habit energy, just like chaotic mind is a condition of habit energy.

 

Turn the light around, arrest the potential - this is its own habit energy one cultivates, and it absolutely leads to a calm quiet empty mind. Had I not experienced this at a certain point in practice stages multiple times over, I wouldnt be quite so confident about stating such.

[soaring crane]

We walked on some very new stone in Hawai'i recently...

 

ok, all rocks in Franconian Germany are old

[GrandmasterP]

Emptier Mind?

 

Maybe.

 

Everyday business crowds the mind whereas mindful cultivation is less 'busy' and creates some mental breathing space 'north of the neck'.

Would agree that a totally empty mind might not be possible nor, necessarily; a good thing to have.

Not and operate machinery that's for sure.

Edited September 25, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[manitou]

It's possible to have the empty mind in chaos as well. It's as though there are two strands aligned right next to each other, representing our mind. One strand is aware of everything that's going on, inviting us to buy into it emotionally. The other strand invites us to detach from the chaos and merely observe it as a witness, without evaluation, judgment, or emotion. To wear the world as a loose garment, as the Nazarene would say.

 

My husband will often have the TV on during the day - in addition to something happening on his computer - in addition to maybe a musical CD playing elsewhere in the house. I've found that it is indeed possible to transcend all this and remain in a transcendent state although much is going on around me. We merely select the strand that we wish to be present in - as it says in the DDJ, we can understand something either by transcending it and seeing it in its entirety, or we can entrench ourselves into the emotional responses - we can observe it from the inside or the outside, whichever we choose.

 

When I choose the strand of transcension, I can hear the words, I can see the images on the TV as I walk by - and yet they do not come together in an understandable way. Because my mind is shutting them out, the words have no relevance one to the other - they are merely sound. The images do not connect in a linear sense on the TV - because my mind has stopped giving them consequence or meaning. They just ARE. I'm pretty sure this is making no sense whatsoever.

 

This to me describes the witness state. This state is also used to describe the ability to observe our own actions and responses without emotionality or judgment of self or others. It just is, that's all.

Edited September 26, 2014 by manitou

[lifeforce]

'The Mind is transparent, having no shape or form'

- Huang Po

[silent thunder]

It's possible to have the empty mind in chaos as well. It's as though there are two strands aligned right next to each other, representing our mind. One strand is aware of everything that's going on, inviting us to buy into it emotionally. The other strand invites us to detach from the chaos and merely observe it as a witness, without evaluation, judgment, or emotion. To wear the world as a loose garment, as the Nazarene would say.

 

My husband will often have the TV on during the day - in addition to something happening on his computer - in addition to maybe a musical CD playing elsewhere in the house. I've found that it is indeed possible to transcend all this and remain in a transcendent state although much is going on around me. We merely select the strand that we wish to be present in - as it says in the DDJ, we can understand something either by transcending it and seeing it in its entirety, or we can entrench ourselves into the emotional responses - we can observe it from the inside or the outside, whichever we choose.

 

When I choose the strand of transcension, I can hear the words, I can see the images on the TV as I walk by - and yet they do not come together in an understandable way. Because my mind is shutting them out, the words have no relevance one to the other - they are merely sound. The images do not connect in a linear sense on the TV - because my mind has stopped giving them consequence or meaning. They just ARE. I'm pretty sure this is making no sense whatsoever.

 

This to me describes the witness state. This state is also used to describe the ability to observe our own actions and responses without emotionality or judgment of self or others. It just is, that's all.

 

Makes sense to me.

 

For years I was tormented at work, by the relentless machine and tool sounds and by the non stop repetitive music.

 

Then one day I realized I hadn't been aware of it, though it had been going on for hours.

This trend continued to expand and deepen

 

It's also spilled over into another far more interesting form for me.

I've noticed becoming aware of a thought chain that was happening, but I was not participating in, in the same way I'll sometimes still become aware of the music that has been playing, which I was not 'aware' of, more precisely I wasn't participating in it.

 

If that makes sense.

either way.

The Witness abides Dude...

[manitou]

Yes. To become the task.

[thelerner]

My sensei used to say something like 'Keep your mind in the emptiness that is not empty.' And describe it as not the hippy mind that is empty, but the meditator's whose mind is empty but awareness is sharp.

 

Likewise he'd say we hit with the no-thing that is something, an aspect of no power that is strongest. Then he'd demonstrate, hitting us on the front shoulder and it'd go numb.

[Daeluin]

Is void of manifestation the same as void of anything?

 

Or does our cultivation of awareness of this void bring awareness to the unmanifested?

 

When we are able to settle deeply within the unmanifested, is there any use for thoughts?

 

Or do we feel the natural patterns as they are, the ebbs and flows all around us, and simply allow harmonious being?

 

Is there a necessity of manifesting thought?

 

This is not mindlessness.

[GrandmasterP]

If someone thinks they are in a state of mindlessness then obviously, they aren't.

Bit like the Tao in a way...

( to paraphrase) ....

" The empty mind that can be described or thought about is not the empty mind."

Edited September 26, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Daeluin]

Once upon a time in ancient China, there was a sage who taught a group of disciples at a remote monastery. They studied teachings from many sources of wisdom, even some that originated from distant lands.

One imporant topic they delved into was human suffering. The disciples were taken by the concept and could not stop talking about it. “Suffering is unavoidable,” one of them declared while others nodded in agreement. “Birth, aging, sickness and death… we suffer through all of them, not to mention the setbacks, heartaches, annoyances and so many other causes of misery.”

This talk had an effect on all of them. They no longer went about their daily activities with good cheer. There was a sense of growing dissatisfaction, and some began to complain about everything.

The sage observed this and decided it was time for a Tao lesson. He gathered the disciples together and said: “I see quite a few moody expressions among you recently. Perhaps we can brighten the mood by taking a break. The nearby lake is particularly beautiful this time of the year. Let us go there.”

The lake was indeed beautiful, filled with pure and pristine water from streams of melted snow. The disciples paid little attention to this natural beauty, for their minds were still preoccupied. The sage knew this would be the case, so he was not surprised when one them finally broke the silence: “Master, what is the Tao perspective on suffering?”

The sage brought out a cup he had prepared, and showed it to all the disciples. They could see that it was half filled with salt. He handed it to the disciple who asked the question and said: “Fill this cup with water from the lake, and stir it well to dissolve all the salt.”

The disciple did as the sage ordered. It took a while, but eventually he was able to get all the salt dissolved. “Good,” the sage approved. “Now take a sip and tell us how it tastes.”

The disciple took a sip and immediately spit it out. “Master, it is much too salty. It tastes horrible!”

“Of course,” the sage smiled. “The salt is just like the suffering we experience in life. It can be extremely difficult to swallow. Even a little sip is horrible.”

“So that is the Tao perspective, Master? That suffering is horrible?” The disciple was puzzled.

Instead of answering, the sage brought out another cup. The disciple looked at it and was startled. The second cup was filled to the brim with salt. As bad as the first cup was, this could only be worse. Would he have to drink it too? He did not know what to think.

“Pour all the salt in this cup into the lake,” the sage instructed. “Then use the empty cup to scoop up water from the lake and drink. Drink it all.”

The disciple did as he was told while the other disciples watched him. When he was done, everyone wanted to know: “Well? How was it?”

“Refreshing!” The disciple smiled. “I was rather thirsty from sipping the first cup. Now my thirst is quenched and I feel great!”

“Do you see the difference?” The sage could tell the disciples were beginning to get it. “The ordinary mind is like the first cup. To such a mind, suffering can be almost unbearable. Even a sip of it is horrible, just like you saw for yourselves. This is why the natural response to suffering, for most people, is moodiness and complaints.”

“The Tao mind is like this beautiful lake,” the sage waved his arms at everything around them. “If you can expand your mind into the great dimensions of the Tao, then suffering for you will be like salt poured into the lake. The salt is still the same, but your experience of it will be quite different. Even if you end up with more suffering in your life than other people, it will have no power over you, just as more salt has no effect on the lake. The water remains as pure, pristine and refreshing as ever. Now that is the Tao perspective on suffering!”

 

Ref.

 

Absolutes are great to theorize about, but for most of us it is helpful to be aware which mind is currently holding the reigns.

[C T]

Is void of manifestation the same as void of anything?

 

Or does our cultivation of awareness of this void bring awareness to the unmanifested?

 

When we are able to settle deeply within the unmanifested, is there any use for thoughts?

 

Or do we feel the natural patterns as they are, the ebbs and flows all around us, and simply allow harmonious being?

 

Is there a necessity of manifesting thought?

 

This is not mindlessness.

I'd say having clarity, and not the absence of thought that is fundamental to being.

 

Perhaps pristine clarity is achieved when one knows how to recognise inherent stillness in activity, and vice versa.

Isn't this the true meaning of 'allowing'?

 

I dont see any benefit in arresting an arrow in mid-flight; similarly, there is no good reason in trying to suppress thoughts. Simply recognising its ephemeral essence is sufficient to liberate everything, for it is said that karma cannot accrue when thoughts are allowed to arise and subside fully minus any secondary agitations or resistance on our part. Thoughts in their true nature cannot hit us over the head. Its when we allow grasping after a thought that little karmic propellers are set in motion.

 

Lets assume that an empty mind could therefore be a mind that is constantly aware of its own illusory nature. What will be the fruitful outcome of sharpening this awareness?

[Nungali]

I dont agree that the mind is like some thought vessel. Just like a flute is not a vessel for melody.

 

Mind is more like a vast, empty plot of land which has potential to yield exactly what has been sowed.

A blank mandala field...

 

Empty mind is like clearing the fields after each harvest to ready for next season's crop.

 

You reap exactly what is sown. Old adage.

 

Some of the reasons I like this analogy are;

 

- Not only 'potential' but a certain amount of 'inevitable' is going to occur in that field ... everything in it that has a potential ( minerals, stray seeds, any future developed ecological system ... is all going to 'want to' ... even 'must do' express those potentials in any possible form and combination ... and to express that on the surface and air as it develops and grows and - in the 'underworld'.

 

So we 'cultivate' it to get a product; suppress or remove what we dont want (invasive bugs , weeds, etc) an assist what we do.

 

Its a great analogy how I see the need for expression of 'soul' and 'its' needs ( 'soul' in the more old Jungian sense). And also the idea if it isn't allowed to express in these forms, it will find some other way to to do it, however it can. if cant, the 'soul' will die (plants die without producing viable seed - people lose hope or 'spirit').

 

Also, Steiner said (in Agricultural Lectures) - a farm is an entity with its head underground and its belly in the sky. Took me a bit to understand that ... but its apt. It has to do with the information network in there, that isn't harvested or planted, so although I like the idea, I may not agree with the conclusion.

 

I think a lot goes on in there ... that I cant think about. Even if I empty the mind ... am I meant to sterilize it so it looses its fertility and capacity to express its innate (?) intelligence ?

[Nungali]

My sensei used to say something like 'Keep your mind in the emptiness that is not empty.' And describe it as not the hippy mind that is empty, but the meditator's whose mind is empty but awareness is sharp.

 

Likewise he'd say we hit with the no-thing that is something, an aspect of no power that is strongest. Then he'd demonstrate, hitting us on the front shoulder and it'd go numb.

Didnt we talk about this in 'No Mind' somewhere? I remeber quoting 'The Art of War' about it.

 

Anyway there is some good stuff about it in there ( Thomas Cleary version- appendix)

[manitou]

Such wonderful and elusive questions. Exquisite, really....

 

I am at a point in my meditations - not even formal ones, necessarily - but even those pictures that may be on our mind first thing in the morning when we awake - where I realize that I am in a separate reality and have 'colored in' the scene with my own mind. And yet, once I realize that I am observing such a thing, it disappears! It is so very frustrating, that once I realize i'm in Awareness of the phenomena it goes away, whereas I would love to just ride the phenomena and see where it goes.

 

It's like transcending the relativity of everything is when it happens - and yet when I return to the relativity to describe it to myself the pictures disappear. Does anyone else experience this? It reminds me of the quantum phenomena where things are both a particle and a wave of probability. And the observer is a crucial and undeniable part of the equation. When I realize I'm the observer, it's gone. If anyone has a suggestion for getting around this particular phenomena...please cough it up. Like a cat with a hairball.

[Anoesjka]

Such wonderful and elusive questions. Exquisite, really....

 

I am at a point in my meditations - not even formal ones, necessarily - but even those pictures that may be on our mind first thing in the morning when we awake - where I realize that I am in a separate reality and have 'colored in' the scene with my own mind. And yet, once I realize that I am observing such a thing, it disappears! It is so very frustrating, that once I realize i'm in Awareness of the phenomena it goes away, whereas I would love to just ride the phenomena and see where it goes.

 

It's like transcending the relativity of everything is when it happens - and yet when I return to the relativity to describe it to myself the pictures disappear. Does anyone else experience this? It reminds me of the quantum phenomena where things are both a particle and a wave of probability. And the observer is a crucial and undeniable part of the equation. When I realize I'm the observer, it's gone. If anyone has a suggestion for getting around this particular phenomena...please cough it up. Like a cat with a hairball.

Yes, I have that too, seems like the ego destroys it.