Can we perform Sri Ramana Maharshi's most important question "Who am I?" with our eyes open, during "the day" ? If not, what else is there to do?

[4bsolute]

If a thought comes, I immediatelly close my eyes, go inward and ask "Whom arose this thought?" and the answer is "Me." followed then by the final question "Who am I?" (that thinks here). A sensation in my chest continues to increase, doing so.

 

Doing so in my waking state, with whatever I do, seems to be an endless task.

 

Immediatelly when a thought comes and I do this process and open my eyes again, breathe 2-3 times, the next thought comes. Even if it is just a word.

 

In his teachings it is said, that the Self is not witnessed when the world is seen. So that means that when we have our eyes open, and see the world with all it's objects (instead of seeing it as thoughts, not conceptually but as actual energy.. possibly at one stage) it is pointless to continue with this practice, because we have our eyes.. consciousness.. on thoughts (objects).. therefor thoughts come and come and come?

 

Also, is this practice only to be done in solitude? Simply because there are many individuals around who also constantly are attracting thoughts. And since thoughts are not personal, everyone "could" hear them, including a practitioneer of this practice.

 

Do we only perform this questioning with eyes closed, in silence?

 

And if so, what do we do during "the day"? Do we simply let the thoughts come and go and continue to be the witness - until there is a point for a quiet sitting meditation again?

 

 

I am looking forward to your knowledge regarding this technique of techniques.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Edit: I came across this quote of a "student"

 

"However, the beneficial effects of building introspective power during meditation will be dissipated if the rest of the day is spent devoted to serving the world. Once one has isolated what they think to be their ‘I Am”, the student needs to stop several times during the day for a few minutes, and look at that ‘I am’ to better understand it during everyday life. The self-awareness should become continuous."

 

Edit2: Here is displayed everything one needs to know http://soonyata.home.xs4all.nl/self-inquiry.htm

Edited September 25, 2014 by 4bsolute

[BrokenYogi]

Ramana did not consider self-enquiry to be some kind of formal meditative practice to be done with eyes closed in some sort of meditative posture. That he considered only to be useful for beginners. Instead, he considered it to be something one would do in the midst of all daily activities.

How is that possible? Well, first, because self-enquiry is not some formal practice of asking the question "who am I?" and intellectually thinking of an answer. It is a very direct examination of the whole feeling-sense of "I" that we have all the time. It may be useful at times to use the formal question, but once one settles into this feeling of "I", the rest is direct, intuitive, and non-mental.

So following this feeling of "I" in the midst of life's activities is not really that hard. The "I" sense is always there anyway, it isn't something that needs to be searched for, it's simply what we are. So self-enquiry is very simple and completely compatible with everyday activities. To Ramana, it was something he felt people should be doing constantly, to one degree or another, though of course not everyone did. Simple forgetfulness is so common, we hardly notice how quickly we ignore our own feeling of self in the midst of the world of objects. But obviously this self is always there, observing and feeling everything. So self-enquiry is simply a matter of being aware of the subject rather than being obsessed with the object, and feeling into this feeling of being the subject.

 

[4bsolute]

Here is displayed everything one needs to know http://soonyata.home.xs4all.nl/self-inquiry.htm

[Jetsun]

Some people have more success with the enquiry "what am I?"

[Nikolai1]

Ramana did not consider self-enquiry to be some kind of formal meditative practice to be done with eyes closed in some sort of meditative posture. That he considered only to be useful for beginners. Instead, he considered it to be something one would do in the midst of all daily activities.

 

How is that possible? Well, first, because self-enquiry is not some formal practice of asking the question "who am I?" and intellectually thinking of an answer. It is a very direct examination of the whole feeling-sense of "I" that we have all the time. It may be useful at times to use the formal question, but once one settles into this feeling of "I", the rest is direct, intuitive, and non-mental.

 

So following this feeling of "I" in the midst of life's activities is not really that hard. The "I" sense is always there anyway, it isn't something that needs to be searched for, it's simply what we are. So self-enquiry is very simple and completely compatible with everyday activities. To Ramana, it was something he felt people should be doing constantly, to one degree or another, though of course not everyone did. Simple forgetfulness is so common, we hardly notice how quickly we ignore our own feeling of self in the midst of the world of objects. But obviously this self is always there, observing and feeling everything. So self-enquiry is simply a matter of being aware of the subject rather than being obsessed with the object, and feeling into this feeling of being the subject.

This is such an amazing summary!

[Boy]

...

Edited December 1, 2014 by Boy

[BrokenYogi]

Some people have more success with the enquiry "what am I?"

 

Yes, Ramana was not particular about the form of the enquiry. He said it was not a mantra with some special powers that had to be done a certain way. The words are just an aid for turning attention back upon oneself, which is the only essential aspect of the practice. He also recommended just repeating "I, I, I" to help establish the feeling of self in one's awareness. Whatever worked.

[BrokenYogi]

Here is displayed everything one needs to know http://soonyata.home.xs4all.nl/self-inquiry.htm

 

I hope you aren't serious about this. Ed is a nutjob with no genuine understanding of any of these things. I've had some hilarious run-ins with him before. Good for a laugh, but not much else.

[BrokenYogi]

Reading that Ed Muzika article on self-enquiry is a perfect example of how not to approach the whole thing, in my view at least.

Ed had a decent background, with a genuine teacher named Robert Adams, but he seems not to have actually learned much from him. He keeps talking about this long search within to find the "I", or what he calls "hunting the I". Well, this is just a total waste of time. The "I" is not an object one hunts, and self-enquiry is not a hunt for this "thing" called "I" inside of us somewhere. The "I" is the most obvious thing in the world, the only self-evident thing around, meaning the one who is looking. You don't look for the "I", you simply fall back into the looker. It's right here, right now, not elsewhere, not deep within us somewhere, in some hidden place we have to ferret out.

Ramana's primary instruction to people who became distracted by objects or experiences or impulses of some kind, was to simply ask oneself, "to whom is this [experience, object, or impulse] arising?" The very one who asks the question is the subject of the enquiry. And that one is right here in plain view, as something we feel and experience without any kind of mystery - except the mystery of how this sense of being an observing self arises. That enquiry is not an intellectual one, and its not a search for some lost secret hidden away from us. It's not a question of diving into some inner world of thoughts and feelings to find it either. It's merely a matter of living from the perspective of this feeling sense of self, and letting that be the teacher.

 

"That trustworthy vichara [self-enquiry] exists neither in book learning nor in learning from others, but only in one's own sense of 'I'."

- Ramana, Guru Vachaka Kovai, David Godman translation, p. 173

So if anyone wants to learn about self-enquiry, just do it. Let the self-enquiry be your teacher. There's some minimum level of mental understanding that is probably useful, but that can be learned literally in a few minutes. No need for internet gurus and other quacks - myself included.

Edited September 26, 2014 by BrokenYogi

[Nikolai1]

Hi brokenyogi

 

 

Reading that Ed Muzika article on self-enquiry is a perfect example of how not to approach the whole thing, in my view at least.

 

I think you're being a little bit harsh, based on my reading of the article. But it sounds like you might have met him? Maybe his limitations come across more in real life?

 

 

So if anyone wants to learn about self-enquiry, just do it. Let the self-enquiry be your teacher.

 

For anyone who already understands, this is clearly great advice, but as I'm sure you know even Ramana Maharshi had massive difficulties teaching self-enquiry. There are many people who simply do not get it. They cannot help but focus on objects (inner or outer) rather than the sense of I.

 

For these people RM did not labour his point, but would always allow them to carry on with what works best for them: chanting, mantras, deity worship, whatever!

Edited September 28, 2014 by Nikolai1

[lifeforce]

I know this is the Hindu forum, but may I offer the Ch'an method of self-inquiry, hua tou, which I'm having much success with.

http://thetaobums.com/topic/36371-zen/?p=582700

[BrokenYogi]

You're right, not everyone who came to Ramana practiced self-enquiry, and he did give his blessings to people to practice a wide range of things if they were so inclined. He often said the only requirement for self-enquiry was an interest in doing it. And when the interest is there, there's not much need for instruction, other than a few occasional reminders or pointers. The instruction comes from the doing, from the power unleashed by self-enquiry itself.

His point of view about the right use of mantras, chanting, and worship was that if you did these correctly, they were the same as self-enquiry, just taking a slightly different form. He also said that self-enquiry was itself a devotional practice - devotion to the Self. In fact, when people told Ramana they wanted to practice devotion to him and do some sort of puja towards him, he always told them that the best form of devotion to the Guru was self-enquiry, because the true Guru was located in the self-position.

Not everyone understood that either, but those who did, made significant progress.

[Wayfarer]

To 4bsolute...there are many ways of Self-Enquiry...Ramana also thought silence was useful but as you brought up the "who am I?" question we'll go with that...

 

Firstly, whether your eyes are open or not makes no difference. Ultimately, the "I" you are seeking to understand is both behind your eyes and before them - all appearances are of the One. When an answer comes it is a lie...so "Who am I?" answers "me" which is a lie and if you wish to adopt this method you should keep asking "What is this 'me'; where is 'me'; if you are me, what is asking the question and what is answering?"...and so on. It should be approached in a manner that you have someone tied to a chair who knows the whereabouts of a loved one and unless you get the answer they will die...it is that important, that serious.

 

What you are doing is accepting the first answer you are receiving and trusting it to be true. You must approach it so that every answer received is believed to be a lie; central to this method is that at some point an answer will not come...because 'you' do not know what you are, so you cannot answer. The true-answer comes through silence; the ego-self, the thinking mind having given up and realising it cannot locate itself. This is how it realises its self-belief is wrong.

 

You are in fact using the intellect to ask the question and expecting the intellect to be able to answer but IT DOES NOT KNOW. IT CANNOT ANSWER YOU CORRECTLY. So you must keep pressing until that point is reached.

 

The strange thing is, is THAT which is, does not know either (otherwise you would know, for you are THAT)...it is just being expressed as IT is, without thought of what it is. So what goes in search of itself is not IT, it only occurs from the position of understanding that one must come to know. In the moment of Realisation you would come to understand there is no 'you', that everything around is YOU; therefore there is no one who knows and no one who does not; there is no one, only One. What names it One, is Itself.

[dwai]

There are different ways to do the self-inquiry, imho.

Any repetitive action done meditatively will result in this - but we have to be aware of this (not fall into a funk of day-dreaming). The elongation of the gap between thoughts - that is the silence. To know where the thoughts came from, to know where they go. That reveals the nature of that which is thinking the thoughts. That revealed, then it too falls apart. Then what remains is the "Self"

 

(my 2 cents worth)

[BrokenYogi]

Wayfarer<

When an answer comes it is a lie...so "Who am I?" answers "me" which is a lie and if you wish to adopt this method you should keep asking "What is this 'me'; where is 'me'; if you are me, what is asking the question and what is answering?"...and so on.

Yes, I like this. The way Ramana described this, is that one must not only locate this false 'I', one must also locate its source, the true 'I'. Fortunately, they are both in the same place.

 

He often used the traditional metaphor of a man coming across a long stick on the road in the dark. Because he can't see properly, he imagines that the stick is a dangerous snake, and gets frightened and rushes to tell the villagers. They bring lanterns and weapons to attack the snake, but when they arrive, the light of the lanterns reveals that it's just a stick.

Ramana said the ego is just like this. In our ignorance, we think it is a deadly snake, and we try hard to fight it, to kill it, to eradicate it. Self-enquiry, however, is like bringing a light and shining it on the snake, revealing that it's not a snake at all, but a stick. We see the source of the snake-illusion, rather than the image our imaginations have created and superimposed upon it.

 

So the method of self-enquiry is one of bringing the light of consciousness to this ego-snake of ours, to reveal its source. By holding fast to this contemplation of the ego-sense, we can see through the imagery of our imaginations, and see the formless Self which was always there, and hidden only by our ignorance.

Ramana said that the way to do this was to hold fast to the 'I'-thought, and not let go. Sort of like holding fast to the stick, even when it might seem like a deadly snake to us, and very dangerous to hold onto. No trying to escape or go elsewhere, just abide with the ego-self until the light of that contemplation breaks through the darkness and reveals the truth. Then the illusory ego-snake dies, like an image fading from sight, and we see that it was never there to begin with. It was just in our minds.

[Wayfarer]

This idea of Self-Enquiry is not something I have ever tried, I know for some people that it works. For me, the self-enquiry that works best is quietly watching the stillness of things and letting energy and the mind settle of themselves...at some point we begin to 'feel' a difference which is both 'Presence' on the inside and the outside; and perhaps in that moment our self as an individual 'boundary' disappears.

 

As Dwai says, there are lots of ways of Self-Enquiry. To the Original Poster, if you are attracted to the questioning style you may like to try Liberation Unleashed (LU); they will question you within an inch of your life. Ilona Ciunaite who is one of the women who started LU (with Elena Nezhinsky) is about as clear minded as anyone I've come across. Be prepared for an interrogation!

[Kasuku]

Okay this is to clear up much confusion:

When you realize the Self there is no world to be seen.

Realizing the Self means the I-thought has dissolved forever in the Heart, or pure awareness.

The object of Self-inquiry is to keep the i-thought in the Heart.

To do so when ever the i-thought rises from the Heart, inquire "Where does this I-thought come from"

Then the i-thought will immediately sink back into the Heart.

One must try to not allow the I-thought to enter the brain, and create thoughts.

However if this happens one asks "To whom comes these thoughts"

Then the I-thought reveals it to be the one that is having thoughts saying "I am having these thoughts"

Then ask it "where do you come from"

 

During Self-inquiry one will experience the lifeforce concentrating within the sushmumna nadi and flowing to the crown and down to the spiritual heart center. Other experiences include seeing Sadguru in the Spiritual Heart center, seeing light there.

Other experiences include feelings Peace and bliss.

Some may experience the nectar of Bliss coming out the Spiritual Heart pervading through the body. Some may experience being washed by Divine LIGHT from above.

Some may enter the cave of atman (2 digits from the right side of chest) in Nirbikalpa Samadhi.

 

However througout all these experiences one must ask "WHO is having this experience" to isolate the I-thought.

 

Liberation only results when there is no more I-thought regardless of these experience.

 

When the I-thought is dissolved there is no more mind. The mind has been destroyed forever, and there is no I-thought rising for you. THen there is only timeless spaceless BEing awareness Bliss of the Reality, and there is no world for you.

 

THis is written from experience.

 

Hope this will help you on your way.

 

MAIN THING IS, you must knock down every thought into the Heart.

 

Also get transmission from a realized one.

 

However GRACE IS ALWAYS THERE.

 

In the Self with Peace.,

Ausar

[Tibetan_Ice]

Okay this is to clear up much confusion:

When you realize the Self there is no world to be seen.

Realizing the Self means the I-thought has dissolved forever in the Heart, or pure awareness.

The object of Self-inquiry is to keep the i-thought in the Heart.

To do so when ever the i-thought rises from the Heart, inquire "Where does this I-thought come from"

Then the i-thought will immediately sink back into the Heart.

One must try to not allow the I-thought to enter the brain, and create thoughts.

However if this happens one asks "To whom comes these thoughts"

Then the I-thought reveals it to be the one that is having thoughts saying "I am having these thoughts"

Then ask it "where do you come from"

 

During Self-inquiry one will experience the lifeforce concentrating within the sushmumna nadi and flowing to the crown and down to the spiritual heart center. Other experiences include seeing Sadguru in the Spiritual Heart center, seeing light there.

Other experiences include feelings Peace and bliss.

Some may experience the nectar of Bliss coming out the Spiritual Heart pervading through the body. Some may experience being washed by Divine LIGHT from above.

Some may enter the cave of atman (2 digits from the right side of chest) in Nirbikalpa Samadhi.

 

However througout all these experiences one must ask "WHO is having this experience" to isolate the I-thought.

 

Liberation only results when there is no more I-thought regardless of these experience.

 

When the I-thought is dissolved there is no more mind. The mind has been destroyed forever, and there is no I-thought rising for you. THen there is only timeless spaceless BEing awareness Bliss of the Reality, and there is no world for you.

 

THis is written from experience.

 

Hope this will help you on your way.

 

MAIN THING IS, you must knock down every thought into the Heart.

 

Also get transmission from a realized one.

 

However GRACE IS ALWAYS THERE.

 

In the Self with Peace.,

Ausar

If he mind has been destroyed forever and there is no more world, and this is your experience, then how can you be writing your post?

[BrokenYogi]

Wayfarer, the path of merely sitting still in silence, or as he advocated, "be as you are", is actually Ramana's primary teaching. It's not a form of self-enquiry, but it may be more fruitful, depending on the person. Self-enquiry is for those who are not able to realize quickly through mere silence and stillness.

[Kasuku]

If he mind has been destroyed forever and there is no more world, and this is your experience, then how can you be writing your post?

The 'world' so to speak is only a thought. The I-thought is the root thought. Once the I thought dissolves in Brahman all goes and there is ONLY Brahman.

In deep sleep there is no world because your I-thought is in hibernation int he causal body.

When the I-thought dissolves in the waking state there will be no world for you.

And there is also no writing of any post. Nothing is happening. For you it would be to inquire "who sees this" to isolate the I-thought which is the root of mind and all karma ad reincarnation. It'll all come clear in the end

Peace

Ausar

[Tibetan_Ice]

The 'world' so to speak is only a thought. The I-thought is the root thought. Once the I thought dissolves in Brahman all goes and there is ONLY Brahman.

In deep sleep there is no world because your I-thought is in hibernation int he causal body.

When the I-thought dissolves in the waking state there will be no world for you.

And there is also no writing of any post. Nothing is happening. For you it would be to inquire "who sees this" to isolate the I-thought which is the root of mind and all karma ad reincarnation. It'll all come clear in the end

Peace

Ausar

When the I thought disappears in the waking state there is no more world for the I thought, but the world still exists because you are the world. You are the sky, the trees, the grass, the people walking by. There is great bliss, silence and the feeling and knowledge that you are everything. If you are lucky, it would last forever. Otherwise, eventually the thoughts come back, including the I thought, like demons in the night...

[Kasuku]

No when the i-thought goes its permanent. Your jnana is unsteady and will not check reincarnation. You must preserve until there is no ego left (i-thought). Then you will have realized the Self.

All you say are only thoughts.

The reality is there is only the Self,

All is the Supreme 'I'.

Tibetan Ice you have a long way to go, but it can be done in a very short time, if your desire for liberation and your love and devotion to God is strong.

You go through many stages before Realization that may seem like enlightenment but they are only stages.

First theres the no-self stage people go through.

Then the "i am the universe" stage.

Then the "I am the divine being (archetype)" stage

Then the pure "i am" stage.

However the final realization is when the "i am" goes.

All there is left is Existence, One without a second.

And you were That the whole time.

Ramana said seek the source of the ego.

When the ego dies in the source, the Heart shines as I-I.

There is only 'I'. Only Being-Awareness-Peace

Edited October 18, 2014 by Kasuku

[3bob]

Nobody realizes the Self except for the Self,

For it is only the Self that can do so

Edited October 18, 2014 by 3bob

[Tibetan_Ice]

No when the i-thought goes its permanent. Your jnana is unsteady and will not check reincarnation. You must preserve until there is no ego left (i-thought). Then you will have realized the Self.

All you say are only thoughts.

The reality is there is only the Self,

All is the Supreme 'I'.

Tibetan Ice you have a long way to go, but it can be done in a very short time, if your desire for liberation and your love and devotion to God is strong.

You go through many stages before Realization that may seem like enlightenment but they are only stages.

First theres the no-self stage people go through.

Then the "i am the universe" stage.

Then the "I am the divine being (archetype)" stage

Then the pure "i am" stage.

However the final realization is when the "i am" goes.

All there is left is Existence, One without a second.

And you were That the whole time.

Ramana said seek the source of the ego.

When the ego dies in the source, the Heart shines as I-I.

There is only 'I'. Only Being-Awareness-Peace

Since you claim to be writing from experience, perhaps you could explain what you mean when you say that "there is no world for you". You have said that when the I thought dissolves in the heart, it is permanent and when this occurs there is no world for you. Therefore, if there is no world for you, how can you participate in the world?

 

Perhaps you could read this link before you respond.

 

http://www.srichinmoy.org/spirituality/concentration_meditation_contemplation/samadhi

[Kasuku]

Sorry for the confusion.

Well when the I-thought dissolves into the Heart, you achieve Sahaj Samadhi. Sahaj Samadhi only means the natural state. Actually you are always in Samadhi is just because people believe they are their minds they think they have to enter samadhi.

Also its best to read Ramana for stuff like this. But to realize the Self you don't necessarily have to achieve Nirbikalpa Samadhi, though that definitely can be an experience before or after Realization. Realization just means your ego has been dissolved you the Realization is what was always there Sahaj. Then yes everything you experience is experience within your BEING, so yeah the website is right. Your Heart is universal. That doesn't mean you can read minds or clairvoyance or any of that stuff.

You see the Heart is the Self, so when you loose ur ego and BECOME the Heart then that is Sahaj. The no world thing means though the 'world' is seen it has no reality. The only Reality is the Self, so everything you experience is your Self, but since theres no mind you can't say you experience anything so one can only say there is ONLY the Self. This must be felt. You see the I-thought is what creates the feeling of an 'other' and projects out the names and forms. Once the I-thought goes, all name and forms go, and there is only Self. Thats the no world bit. And its Ultimate Peace.

Here check out my teacher. He can lead most to the Self in a short time if one is dedicated.

http://www.ramaji.org/