Ian Posted November 20, 2007 Interesting thought. Lam Kam Chuen says that standing postures curve the body to tune into particular frequencies like a satellite dish does. Reminds me of learning Chi Nei Tsang from Ron Diana. He would be standing there easy as butter, with his elbow in somone's navel, talking about tuning in. He mentioned there being maybe nice different places across your feet where your weight might be, and the hand above the active elbow could point in any direction, just like a satellite dish, and your head and body could lean. Not to any purpose, exactly, just to feel right. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aspirin Posted November 20, 2007 (edited) --- Edited June 24, 2016 by Aspirin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
minkus Posted November 20, 2007 (edited) Has anyone had any changes to their bowel movements since practicing Kunlun Level 1? Something similar to when one goes to the gym and does a heavy workout, perhaps, as if the workout has sucked out as much of the nutrients as possible from what is currently digesting in the intestines. So, what is passed out is just highly condensed undigestible stuff. Is this a side-effect of the "shaking legs" action. I didnt notice side-effects in the bowels from kunlun, no negative ones in any case. I do notice that when i have eaten not that long ago and do kunlun that the energy also heats up the places where there is still food stuck in the bowel .. i feel where the food is in my body as kunlun goes around it and heats up everything out of place (in this case partly undigested food but in other cases also "dirty" energy and places where there are problems like a small infection or bruise) . Maybe this heating (energy gushing trough rapidly and strongly) has somekind of dehydrating effect on the intestines. Its also noted not to drink water right before doing kunlun (also for the heating effect ?? .. the kahuna wariors tested there strenght by boiling a glass of water infront of there body like mentioned in the book .. maybe related to this ?) To be honest these are personal assumptions, for real information we can hope Mantra68 drops by again Kind regards. edit: the shaking legs are energy that is going trough your body so yes there is a possibility although the legs themselves dont have alot to do with the intestines i guess. the shaking feel to me like the kunluncurrent is to high to cope by the body at that moment, when you get used to it the shaking gets a bit less or even dissapears. I read here shaking left and right balances yin and yang in that order. Regards again, hope this helped a bit. Edited November 20, 2007 by minkus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted November 20, 2007 This can give you an idea: more specific although the rest of the archive is certainly worth checking out: http://web.archive.org/web/20040804190946/...tal_qi_form.asp That seems to be more TCM related; what I was referring to were seemingly more esoteric manifestations, as such... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoda Posted November 20, 2007 Rex, I don't think that the direction one faces matters per the practice, but I like E and NE. Yoda Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted November 20, 2007 Rex, I don't think that the direction one faces matters per the practice, but I like E and NE. Yoda Yang Jwing Ming's analysis of it was that it should be east in daytime for the sun's qi; south at night to line up with the earth's magnetic field...all in a whichever is the most dominant source at the time context. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoda Posted November 20, 2007 Yang Jwing Ming's analysis of it was that it should be east in daytime for the sun's qi; south at night to line up with the earth's magnetic field...all in a whichever is the most dominant source at the time context. Interesting! I point my head to the south for the magnetic thing when I sleep. I was just sitting next to a guy from Indian descent and he said have your house face east and your head face south in bed is the lore in his family. My house faces west, but one out of two aint bad. I had put this into the Phoenix seminar thread, but I realized that the most searchable place for this post is the Kunlun thread itself, so here's my report again: The first insight was about Max himself. I figured that there was so much antagonism about him on the forum that there must be some sort of personality shortcoming. Maybe he was too aggressive or something. Quite the contrary... he is a mix between the bodhisattva aspect of Mr. Rogers and the crazy aspect of Willy Wonka and is very likable and easy to be around. He rephrased one thought several times which I think captures the spirit of the workshop: "I know it sucks, but you have to smile." Too funny!!!! The practice is the Taoist counterpart to that of Quakers, Shakers, old time Baptists and charismatic Christians. Watching people speak in tongues, rolling around, and so forth always brings up a mix of strong reactions from me. On the one hand, I admire their openness, ability to have a great time, and to be able to have visions. On the other hand (until I took this class) I was suspicious that the whole phenomenon looks a bit contrived. For the same reason, I think Kunlun strikes people in different ways. For instance, I brought two friends with me, Eric and Matt, to the seminar. Eric absolutely loved the practice and really took to it but Matt was suspicious about it and decided not to take the class. As for the actual practice, I was worried that I might be too inhibited to succeed in Kunlun, and there I was sitting perfectly still next to Eric who was rocking out. In the big picture, I was fine to just get the transmission and go home and fire it up at a later date like Mantra did. But happily, Mantra adjusted my posture a bit and it fired up nicely!! Yay!! Max covered 5 Element standing, Kunlun, Red Phoenix, and Gold Flower as the main practices. They were all very interesting to say the least!! A funny story about Kunlun energy was that after the workshop Matt, Cam, and I were grocery shopping for a dinner party we were going to put together for my Dad and my Stepmom. As Matt hadn't gone to the workshop, he was the sanest guy of us and he did his best to keep Cam and me to conform to social norms. But when we got to the checkout, I realized that I could save a few bucks if I had a Bashes frequent customer card. Almost before I realized what I was doing, exactly as the cashier turned her head away from me I reached over to her new card stash and grabbed one and smiled at Matt. He was pretty surprised and asked too loudly where on earth I got a card from. It took all my willpower not to burst out laughing and confess my crime! But I figured that those cards are silly anyways and couldn't have cost more than a few grapes, and we were making a large purchase so I didn't worry myself about it. That little prank felt very Kunlun to me, as the move was spontaneous. One thing I learned is that it's okay to encourage someone to read the Kunlun book but not to teach the form yourself. The reason for that is that the transmission travels differently through the two mediums and getting it directly from the book is better and safer than getting it from a student who doesn't have the complete, teacher level transmission. Question for Turbo: Unlike me, you were able to figure out and activate the Kunlun energy just by reading the book. You mentioned that by taking the class that the quality of the Kunlun energy changed. Could you say any more on that? Yoda Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbo Posted November 21, 2007 Question for Turbo: Unlike me, you were able to figure out and activate the Kunlun energy just by reading the book. You mentioned that by taking the class that the quality of the Kunlun energy changed. Could you say any more on that? Yoda Yoda, After reading the book and practicing a few times, I started to get some results which grew with each practice session. Eventually these sessions involved such vigorous and sometimes violent movement that I dubbed Kunlun the "heavy metal" of cultivation, and was kinda freaked out about practicing it. At the seminar Max adjusted my energy during one of my violent outbursts and told me that was "where" I should be. So now when the movement gets too strong, I remember to smile a deep smile and things calm down and become very peaceful. It seems like the heavy movement happens when I forget to smile this deep smile. When I remember, the movements generally settle down. The quality of this energy is very harmonious and peaceful. However, I reserve the right to comment again when I get a better handle on it. On the seminar in general: This was the best qigong/meditation seminar that I have ever been to. I have taken a number of classes, lessons, personal instruction, and retreats. The seminar was fun, well taught, covered just enough information to keep it straight but not so much you get confused. The energy was great and the instruction provided an excellent initiation into the practice of Kunlun and the other practices described above. Max was great, but he does not really know how speak well to a group. Some the ideas he was trying to communicate did not come across as well as I thought they could have. This is a minor point as the reason for the class is to learn the practice, not to listen to Max speak about concepts and ideas. That is one thing that I really like about Kunlun - it is dogma free, besides practicing sober, there are no ideas about philosophy or morality or anything else. Like he says try it and find out, be your own master. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wun Yuen Gong Posted November 21, 2007 Ive tried the Kunlun in the book and found that the heels off the ground activate the nervous system especially the legs and even sitting on a computer now i can lift my heels off the ground and my legs will start to shake after a few minutes. Is it nothing more then nerves firing and that sends the heat up the body? WYG Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoda Posted November 21, 2007 Heavy metal cultivation!! I love it!! That's a very valuable Kunlun post, thanks! Is it nothing more then nerves firing and that sends the heat up the body? W- It's unlike anything I've ever been exposed to... couldn't really tell you what is going on, but it seems to me that it is both a natural function of the body, nervous system, etc as well as having a spiritual dimension too. And with practice will reconnect the physical to the spiritual dimensions. The nice thing is that even us heady taobums don't need to figure it all out before enjoying it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mal Posted November 21, 2007 After reading the book and practicing a few times, I started to get some results which grew with each practice session. Eventually these sessions involved such vigorous and sometimes violent movement that I dubbed Kunlun the "heavy metal" of cultivation, and was kinda freaked out about practicing it. At the seminar Max adjusted my energy during one of my violent outbursts and told me that was "where" I should be. So now when the movement gets too strong, I remember to smile a deep smile and things calm down and become very peaceful. Hi Turbo, "kinda freaked out about practicing it" I was too, very supprised that it actually did something. But I went the other way with only doing 10min and slowly building up over time. I was basically stoping and doing the closing form as soon as things started to happen. Now I'm not getting much / any movements in a 40 min session. Not sure why. I have not done that much practice, only started in October and I've stoped practicing everyday at the moment. Feels right to me and I'm concentrating on Kung Fu for a grading this weekend. Also I must admit that I do not "like" the posture as much with my right hand up, a bit painfull for my sholder. Usually it's not a problem as the movement starts to happen and th epain goes away, but the last few times it was more like a 40min static posture. It's all good Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rex Posted November 21, 2007 Rex,I don't think that the direction one faces matters per the practice, but I like E and NE. Yoda Yang Jwing Ming's analysis of it was that it should be east in daytime for the sun's qi; south at night to line up with the earth's magnetic field...all in a whichever is the most dominant source at the time context. The direction can be important for other practices. Mantaks Chia's short tai chi form has a healing version where the elements are associated with the different compass directions and the player absorbs the directions' elemental colours. For sleeping I've been told its good have the head pointing either North or East. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sheng zhen Posted November 21, 2007 Max covered 5 Element standing, Kunlun, Red Phoenix, and Gold Flower as the main practices. They were all very interesting to say the least!! Did you learn all three levels of Kunlun at the seminar or do you still have to do 6 months of Kunlun 1 before doing kunlun 2 and 3? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoda Posted November 21, 2007 For sleeping I've been told its good have the head pointing either North or East. Per India, South is the best and North is the worst. Prior to learning that, I had a teacher who recommended North... so I've tried both and South has worked out the best for me. I think it's a good drill to look at all the directions one has slept in in the various phases of life and to see if there's any correlation between happiness and direction of sleep. I believe that there is. On the other hand the English writer, Dickens, thought that sleeping pointing north was the way too go... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Qlites Posted November 21, 2007 Hi Sheng Zhen. Before the seminar, I was confused on that too. Only Level 1 was taught. They did not mention in detail when Level 2 will hit the road. From what I think I heard, it will be a year. But their feedback from the people is that so many opening up earlier than expected so maybe it will push their timeframe. But it also depend on how soon can they come back to where the first few sessions were at. Anyway, Max was showing some people Level 2 when they asked for it in Phoenix during the break. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbo Posted November 21, 2007 a bit painfull for my sholder I was getting that pain too, but since the seminar the movement/energy takes over more of my body, so my shoulder does not bother much anymore. As far as being freaked out goes, I thought several times about not going to the seminar, because I can't afford to have a month long episode of weirdness, but things went fine and I seem (at least to myself) perfectly sane. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gendao Posted November 21, 2007 (edited) Max was great, but he does not really know how speak well to a group. Some the ideas he was trying to communicate did not come across as well as I thought they could have. This is a minor point as the reason for the class is to learn the practice, not to listen to Max speak about concepts and ideas. That is one thing that I really like about Kunlun - it is dogma free, besides practicing sober, there are no ideas about philosophy or morality or anything else. Like he says try it and find out, be your own master.I think he's better than you think. His workshops are actually very, very, very well-coordinated. There's a lot going on behind-the-scenes to assure the best individual results for everybody. Everything he says and does is in accordance with higher wisdom. So, he tells you what you need to know, and doesn't what you don't. Also, some experiential concepts are simply hard to explain in words. Let's say I'm sure there's a lot lost in translation. (Ergo, Zen Buddhism and why Max teaches more through practice and less through dogma.) Personally, I like those who are succinct and get to the point. Some gurus ramble on beating around the bush...because they are still grasping for the big picture. But Max generally needs only one shot to hit the bull's eye from miles away. Anyhow, it was great meeting all the cool Taobums in Phoenix and I'll have to write more later as time permits... ----------------------------------------------- I did want to go off on a small slightly-related tangent here first, though. I attended a lecture last night by a reincarnated Tibetan (now Danish) "Buddha protector," Lama Ole Nydahl. His teachings about the nature of life actually supported what I had concluded recently, although I don't think he had quite connected all the dots to see the bigger picture yet. So, he seemed to stumble some during Q&As. I did learn some interesting new esoteric tidbits though (from my bad memory, so please excuse any errors): He talked about a magnetic bliss state. Which (from what I recall) is in line with a bipolar potential that's created along your central axis when the white energy of the father rises to your baihui (8 fingers behind your hairline) while the red energy of your mother sinks to 4 fingers below your navel. So, sounds very similar to the Kunlun magnetic bliss. And during death, these lights supposedly move back towards the heart of the body and merge again (taking 10-15 minutes each). Then, the person will exhale 3 times, and not inhale again after the 3rd. This is when death occurs. Upon which, the person should focus on the best thing imaginable at the top of their heads...so their energy/soul will shoot that way. This being the best exit since it supposedly leaves karma and other baggage behind, I think. After which, the deceased may reappear as a ghost 68 hours later (or 3 days according to the Tibetan Book of the Dead), and then wander around for another 7 days before they may realize that they're DEAD. Now, if you see them during this time, simply tell them to go towards the strongest light they can handle. Anyhow, he said that he had been measured at the University of Chicago/Illinois? and his EEG during his bliss state matched that of epileptic seizures. The only difference then being that a meditator could control it better. Which is also interesting, because during Kunlun, many do experience "seizure"-like kriyas. I asked him what brainwave state this was - but he forgot. Someone else in the audience claimed it was delta, but I'm not sure about that. Epilepsy seems to be more associated with theta & gamma states. In meditation studies, Alpha brain states are associated with a typical "Zen" meditation, in which the attention is in a state of "open focus." In this state, one's attention is directed to everything simultaneously. Theta brain states are associated with out of body or astral forms of mediation. In these states, one usually experiences seeing the guru, experiencing places of beauty or peace, and sometimes receiving great spiritual insights with associated visions and sounds. These Theta states are also associated with the classic Shamanic "journeying" experiences. Delta mediation states are associated with being in the void or "white light" states. These states are timeless, formless and linked to states of suspended animation. Deep-level Yogic adepts can slow respiration and heart beat to be virtually undetectable. Some of the higher Yogic states of suspended animation associated with deepest Delta brain states actually continue deeper into these below-Delta brainwave states, which we are calling the Epsilon State (Epsilon, since it is the next Greek letter of the alphabet after Delta). In order to explore these deeper extraordinary states of consciousness associated with Epsilon brainwave patterns, we have had to use traditional EEG equipment in unique ways and to initiate the design of specialized EEG equipment to measure frequencies this slow. Most regular EEG equipment is not set up to measure frequencies below 0.5 Hz. We have also noticed that whenever there are extraordinary meditation states present, brainwave electrical activity between the right/left hemispheres tends to synchronize. This synchronization of the cerebral hemispheres seems to only happen in special circumstances of consciousness - the "aha" state, the moment when the answer to a problem occurs, creative inspiration, great insight and moments of awareness of one's own existence. There have also been reports in the EEG literature from other researchers, that there is evidence of extraordinary states of consciousness associated with higher-than-Beta brainwave activity. These brainwave patterns go from 40 Hz and above - in some cases, as high as 100 Hz or more. The 40 Hz higher-than-Beta activity is now an accepted brainwave state in EEG nomenclature being referred to as "Gamma" brainwaves. We are calling brainwave frequency patterns significantly higher than 40 Hz "Hyper-Gamma" brainwave states. More recently, there have been reports by EEG researchers of ecstatic states of consciousness associated with brainwave frequencies of 200 Hz, we are calling these frequencies "Lambda" brainwave states. BTW, I think a relaxed, zoned-out, "tired" mind (not necessarily an empty, 1-pointed one) is all you need when first doing Kunlun. Which sounds like it might correlate to the alpha state:Dr. Collura describes some of the current beliefs about the meanings of brain waves. Delta happens mostly during a deep sleep. Lots of theta is imagination, and little theta is concentration. Alpha is relaxed but not sleepy. High beta is strong with mental activities like math and planning, but may also mean being anxious. Gamma is thinking hard about different things at the same time. Delta 0.5Hz - 4Hz Deep sleep Theta 4Hz - 8Hz Drowsiness (also first stage of sleep) Alpha 8Hz - 14Hz Relaxed but alert Beta 14Hz - 30Hz Highly alert and focused Well, it seems like a lot of spiritual development is triggering similar processes that normally happen automatically at death...but consciously prematurely while we're still alive. And merging polarities and hemispheres and changing frequencies seems to be a key to all this. Edited November 21, 2007 by vortex Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yue Posted November 23, 2007 First let me say that I mean no offense from this post. Hold on a minute. This guy's energy level was the equivalent of someone having an epileptic siezure??? That sounds a little dangerous to me, if you even buy into it. Also, don't you think it might be a bit on the crazy side to voluntarily trigger things that happen during DEATH? I have never spoken with anyone like Max on this matter because I am pretty much the only person interested in qigong in my area, but doesn't it seem slightly possible that you could just suddenly DROP?????? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted November 23, 2007 You're right to be cautious. It is indeed strange stuff. Not to be entered lightly. But if you're well grounded, have the time, chance and inclination; it might not be a bad game to play. As long as you remember its play and not take it to seriously, even when entering its extremes. Michael Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pero Posted November 23, 2007 And during death, these lights supposedly move back towards the heart of the body and merge again (taking 10-15 minutes each). Then, the person will exhale 3 times, and not inhale again after the 3rd. This is when death occurs. Upon which, the person should focus on the best thing imaginable at the top of their heads...so their energy/soul will shoot that way. This being the best exit since it supposedly leaves karma and other baggage behind, I think. After which, the deceased may reappear as a ghost 68 hours later (or 3 days according to the Tibetan Book of the Dead), and then wander around for another 7 days before they may realize that they're DEAD. Now, if you see them during this time, simply tell them to go towards the strongest light they can handle. I think that this is an oversimplification. Here it sounds very easy but it`s not. And telling someone to just go towards the strongest light is IMO very bad advice. Because as I understand it, for example, if one has accumulated a lot of hatred during life, the strongest will be the light leading to hell.... But in any case, you won`t be able to see them, unless you have developed something like clairvoyance. Also I`m not sure if it`s not to late perhaps, when these lights start manifesting, for the dead person to hear you. Also, don't you think it might be a bit on the crazy side to voluntarily trigger things that happen during DEATH? Where does it say here that you trigger things that happen during death? Though you do something a little similar to death every night when you fall asleep. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sheng zhen Posted November 23, 2007 When I was a kid me and my friends used to "die". We breathed real heavy for about 5 minutes and then put a lot of pressure on our chest while holding our breath. Sometimes three friends put pressure on the others chest. Then we fainted. It was a lot of wierd things happening during the fainting. We could see our selves from above, we could go on strange and long dreamlike journeys, it could feel like we where gone for hours while it really just took about 30 seconds. It was great fun! But after a while we all started to get headaches so we quit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted November 23, 2007 (edited) First let me say that I mean no offense from this post. Hold on a minute. This guy's energy level was the equivalent of someone having an epileptic siezure??? That sounds a little dangerous to me, if you even buy into it. Also, don't you think it might be a bit on the crazy side to voluntarily trigger things that happen during DEATH? I have never spoken with anyone like Max on this matter because I am pretty much the only person interested in qigong in my area, but doesn't it seem slightly possible that you could just suddenly DROP?????? That's one of the reasons you need to do level 1 for 6 months before moving on to level 2. The body can get used to higher currents with time and training. If you do too much too fast, it does seem plausible that you could give yourself an anyuerism or something. As far as the death stuff goes, it sounds worse than what it really is. Austin had a bit to say about stuff like that in Zen & the Brain...which I still have not gotten around to finishing. I got to a point in the book where it was too much, felt like I had read more & faster than I was able to effectively absorb, so I had to take a break. Having no shortage of other reading material, I started opening other stuff! When I was a kid me and my friends used to "die". We breathed real heavy for about 5 minutes and then put a lot of pressure on our chest while holding our breath. Sometimes three friends put pressure on the others chest. Then we fainted. It was a lot of wierd things happening during the fainting. We could see our selves from above, we could go on strange and long dreamlike journeys, it could feel like we where gone for hours while it really just took about 30 seconds. It was great fun! But after a while we all started to get headaches so we quit. lol, I remember doing that when we were kids...but...I was always one of the kids doing the squeezing and the laughing at the other when they hit their head on the floor and were wriggling instead of trying it. Edited November 23, 2007 by joeblast Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gendao Posted November 23, 2007 First let me say that I mean no offense from this post. Hold on a minute. This guy's energy level was the equivalent of someone having an epileptic siezure??? That sounds a little dangerous to me, if you even buy into it. Also, don't you think it might be a bit on the crazy side to voluntarily trigger things that happen during DEATH? I have never spoken with anyone like Max on this matter because I am pretty much the only person interested in qigong in my area, but doesn't it seem slightly possible that you could just suddenly DROP?????? Just to clarify, that second part of my post were things I interpreted and speculated mostly from the Buddhist lecture I attended, not something Max taught per se (just so I don't put any words in his mouth). That said, "epileptic"-like kriyas are pretty textbook reactions during initial openings...and apparently death experiences too at higher levels. So, it's nothing I'm personally afraid of. And as for Max's workshops, he takes very good care of you, so you are in great hands no matter what happens... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sunya Posted November 24, 2007 When I was a kid me and my friends used to "die". We breathed real heavy for about 5 minutes and then put a lot of pressure on our chest while holding our breath. Sometimes three friends put pressure on the others chest. Then we fainted. It was a lot of wierd things happening during the fainting. We could see our selves from above, we could go on strange and long dreamlike journeys, it could feel like we where gone for hours while it really just took about 30 seconds. It was great fun! But after a while we all started to get headaches so we quit. hahah woah! sounds like an interesting childhood my friends and i used to play ring and run, video games, and soccer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
effilang Posted December 27, 2009 (edited) When I was a kid me and my friends used to "die". We breathed real heavy for about 5 minutes and then put a lot of pressure on our chest while holding our breath. Sometimes three friends put pressure on the others chest. Then we fainted. It was a lot of wierd things happening during the fainting. We could see our selves from above, we could go on strange and long dreamlike journeys, it could feel like we where gone for hours while it really just took about 30 seconds. It was great fun! But after a while we all started to get headaches so we quit. lol - I remember doing as kids too, only after the heavy breathing we would have someone give you a strong bear hug until you passed out Edited December 27, 2009 by effilang Share this post Link to post Share on other sites