Will meditation alone achieve special effects?

[dc9]

I have read about the benefits and extrasensory abilities that qijong, yogi, and buddhist practices can give you. But all of these different methodologies all have different claims on the way our energy/chi/whatever in our body works, that it makes me think that none of them matter.. that as long as you meditate deeply and longly enough, you will be able to achieve those effects regardless..

 

What do you guys think about this? Right now I have a lot of trouble meditating for longer than 15 minutes, but if I can ever get to the point of being able to do it for 2+ hours a day, will I begin to feel new sensations and awareness?

[woodcarver]

What do you guys think about this? Right now I have a lot of trouble meditating for longer than 15 minutes, but if I can ever get to the point of being able to do it for 2+ hours a day, will I begin to feel new sensations and awareness?

I have become more aware from meditation but it is not "new" awareness.

 

What texts are you reading? Do you study the tao te ching and chuang-tzu?

 

I can ask that here, right? It's a tao forum, right?

[dc9]

I have read some of mantak chia's stuff and that is all I know about qi gong stuff.

 

when I read his material I didn't have the discipline to carry through with any of the practices so I wasn't able to confirm on whether it really was possible to have the results that he claims you will have..

[woodcarver]

Ask somebody else about qi gong stuff.

[katsura]

They're real. I'm a lazy student so I can't make any grand claims, but with modest practice of qigong you'll get intimations of increased sensory awareness, strength, speed, resilience. With the greater mental acuity that comes with cultivating jhana states, such as in Zen meditation, you'll begin to see how awareness and intention can be directed to get things you want without you necessarily having to do anything (magick, in other words.) There's other strange things that may manifest spontaneously, but can be eventually mastered, such as lucid dreaming, OBEs, remote viewing, psychic intuition.

[allinone]

few thousand hours of intense learning on basics would be a good starting point.

[soaring crane]

few thousand hours of intense learning on basics would be a good starting point.

 

I agree. Basics are a good place to start. I don't know if the average person needs thousands of hours of experiece, but base-building is important.

 

I feel there are cost/benefit ratios to the vast body of information available these days. The cost is that people can become misled into believing that the higher levels of development can be achieved easily by following the instructions in a book (or a thread at a web forum, or watching a few youtube videos). The benefit is that there is also a large body of instructional material for those who are just getting into it.

 

Second time I'm recommending this book today.

[GrandmasterP]

I have read some of mantak chia's stuff and that is all I know about qi gong stuff.

 

when I read his material I didn't have the discipline to carry through with any of the practices so I wasn't able to confirm on whether it really was possible to have the results that he claims you will have..

If you are managing 15-minutes cultivation each and every day and ( hopefully) at around the same time every day then you are already doing far more than most people ever manage.

Keep that up.

If you wish to 'add on' then create a separate space for the 'extra' whilst retaining that core 15- minutes that you know you can do.

Too much too soon is a recipe for disappointment because more people pack in cultivation altogether when they find they haven't the time or inclination to play an extended set each day.

GM Mantak Chia's stuff is best avoided IMO.

Others will think differently but, for me GM Chia's merchandised cultivations are focused upon meeting felt need or desires.

A 'means to some end' if you will.

Will into Power via some sort of 'force of will' that appears to be somehow transmitted from the GM or his accredited teachers and 'into' the cultivator.

Tending towards cultivation for its own sake and devoid of desires i've not found any resonances in what I have seen , read or heard of GM. Chia's methods.

Edited September 29, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[soaring crane]

What texts are you reading? Do you study the tao te ching and chuang-tzu?

 

I can ask that here, right? It's a tao forum, right?

 

 

hahaha .... why would you ask that?

[aboo]

In my opinion, meditation is enough, and if you do meditate 2hours a day for 6-24 months you will experience plenty.

[Apech]

I agree meditation is enough in the sense that it is the key to development. However most people benefit from a holistic system such as Buddhism or Taoism which includes ethics (or some approach to daily living) and also intellectual training in the appropriate set of ideas and understanding to enhance your practice. What you need is the big picture so your practice can settle within it. What you don't need are the ideas of speed (real spiritual progress requires a level of maturity which does take time) and focus on developing powers (siddhis). Siddhis are great don't get me wrong but they need to be nurtured within some larger and more human goals or they become characterised as circus acts.

[KenBrace]

I have read about the benefits and extrasensory abilities that qijong, yogi, and buddhist practices can give you. But all of these different methodologies all have different claims on the way our energy/chi/whatever in our body works, that it makes me think that none of them matter.. that as long as you meditate deeply and longly enough, you will be able to achieve those effects regardless..

 

What do you guys think about this? Right now I have a lot of trouble meditating for longer than 15 minutes, but if I can ever get to the point of being able to do it for 2+ hours a day, will I begin to feel new sensations and awareness?

2 hours still isn't very long tbh. I've gone for up to 7 hours before and still wasn't able to reach a deep enough state for training.

 

And as far as all forms of meditation achieving results, that honestly isn't the case. Most meditative practices won't produce any worthwhile results. My advise would be to clearly define what your goals are, then set out to find the practices that best suit those goals and have evidence backup their legitimacy.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Amazing, all these people talking about meditation like it is one thing, without even bothering to define the many many kinds of meditation. Like it didn't matter or something...

 

There is mantra meditation, TM (ok some believe it is meditation), shamatha meditation, vispassana meditation, gazing meditation, tummo meditation, kundalini meditation, visualization meditation, awareness of awareness meditation, self inquiry meditation, useless meditation, contrived meditation, meditation with an object, meditation without an object, loving kindness meditation and there is even non-meditation.

 

Then, there is the level of the practitioner to consider.

 

Then, meditation done poorly can be done poorly for long periods of time with no or even a detrimental effect. Meditation done properly can cause valid experiences almost instantly. Then there is the general idea that you must sustain your practice 24 hours a day in order to become enlightened.

 

That is why most, some if not all of the aforementioned posts seem like blank stabs in the dark to me.

 

Edited September 29, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[bax44]

 

2 hours still isn't very long tbh. I've gone for up to 7 hours before and still wasn't able to reach a deep enough state for training.

 

And as far as all forms of meditation achieving results, that honestly isn't the case. Most meditative practices won't produce any worthwhile results. My advise would be to clearly define what your goals are, then set out to find the practices that best suit those goals and have evidence backup their legitimacy.

 

This is ridiculous, in my opinion, and in my own personal experience. Ive meditated between 1-2 hrs a day for about a year and a half and have experienced some pretty profound changes. The idea that one needs do devote 6 hours a day to meditation to see results is bizarre. Also Ive had many sessions that didnt "feel" like I was even meditating and noticed the next day feeling much different. Actually I can remember a difference even after my first 10 minute meditation. I think its not helpful to beginners to put these kind of limitations on meditation. I know if Id have read a post like this when I was just starting Id have just said screw that, because thats just overwhelming. anyways thats my 2 cents. Im sure longer is "better" however Ive had some pretty profound meditations where I only went for 40 min. It all depends.

Edited September 30, 2014 by bax44

[woodcarver]

hahaha .... why would you ask that?

I'm still new here and I don't know how it goes quite yet. In real life, asking people what texts they read is very dangerous.

[soaring crane]

I'm still new here and I don't know how it goes quite yet. In real life, asking people what texts they read is very dangerous.

Ok gotcha :-)

 

Lao Tzu is always relevant and well-received here :-)

[katsura]

I have to agree with bax44. There would be no room for lay practitioners in the realm of meditation and qigong if you had to spend hours in the deepest trance to even begin. That's never been my experience. Tbh, I'm really not even meditating when I do my qigong routine. It would be better if I did, and I'm getting the impression that it's becoming more necessary to develop the stability and sensitivity I'll need to handle the energy I'm starting to get, but I don't see it as a barrier to entry. Some amount of qigong may even be necessary to sustain those deep states of concentration in the first place.

[Rara]

Hello! I echo Apech and GMP partly. 15 minutes of meditation (done properly) is very hard, so doing this daily is great...and the more you can eventually add will benefit you well. Progress takes time [insert relevant Lao Tzu quote here ]

 

I don't do qigong, but I still cultivate all day every day. Meditation is my "formal practice" if you will, but Wing Chun is my way to self mastery and being an all round conscientious good guy is also important! So don't feel you need to be on the floor for two hours a day if you're family is in need etc. Go with the flow, and stay strong

 

As for "powers", I won't go there. This is too vague.

 

EDIT: I mean, I work on cultivating all day every day. Not always successful but meditation can always help bring me back if I do lose my way a bit! Also, mindfulness in all daily activities is very useful.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Rara

[C T]

Patience is the 'breast milk' for those seeking to develop special abilities.

[bax44]

Mmm breast milk...

 

Ok sorry I had to hope no one was offended:)

[C T]

Mmm breast milk...

 

Ok sorry I had to hope no one was offended:)

Why would the mention of breast milk be offensive?

Edited September 30, 2014 by C T

[bax44]

 

Why would the mention of breast milk be offensive?

 

its not at all

[joeblast]

I agree. Basics are a good place to start. I don't know if the average person needs thousands of hours of experiece, but base-building is important.

 

I feel there are cost/benefit ratios to the vast body of information available these days. The cost is that people can become misled into believing that the higher levels of development can be achieved easily by following the instructions in a book (or a thread at a web forum, or watching a few youtube videos). The benefit is that there is also a large body of instructional material for those who are just getting into it.

 

Second time I'm recommending this book today.

heh...people just confuse "simple" with "easy." one doesnt NEED thousands of hours of experience - its just that for most people that "get any experience"....it usually comes having put in veritably thousands of hours. how long does it take for one to grasp a concept? employ it? realize errors the body may make and correct them? realize mistakes the mind may make and correct them? these are all things that will dictate how much or how fast the fruits of your practices will manifest. is the person willing to put in sustained effort? multiple times a day? and have a long session each night? is the person willing to be honest with oneself if he has incompatible aspects of life (like say boozin' every day, or extreme temper) then drop things detrimental to practice?

 

your progress will come as quickly as you can arrange the right ingredients, attenuate wrong ingredients.

 

2 hours still isn't very long tbh. I've gone for up to 7 hours before and still wasn't able to reach a deep enough state for training.

 

And as far as all forms of meditation achieving results, that honestly isn't the case. Most meditative practices won't produce any worthwhile results. My advise would be to clearly define what your goals are, then set out to find the practices that best suit those goals and have evidence backup their legitimacy.

and one also has to be careful not to let his mind get in the way, lest he never feel as if he actually started his training to begin with. posts like this are damn near the epitome of mindless, rootless practice where one can spend hours upon hours spinning his wheels in the mud and getting absolutely nowhere.

 

you're going to have troubles if you cant recognize the proper ingredients for successful practice.

 

make no mistake, things flow and manifest unambiguously from diligent, sincere, and correct practice.

 

 

CT had an excellent point though...what type of meditation, what special effects. I dont think you can have a good disco without a nicely sized mirror ball

[Horus]

But all of these different methodologies all have different claims on the way our energy/chi/whatever in our body works, that it makes me think that none of them matter.. that as long as you meditate deeply and longly enough, you will be able to achieve those effects regardless..

 

Correct.

 

What do you guys think about this? Right now I have a lot of trouble meditating for longer than 15 minutes, but if I can ever get to the point of being able to do it for 2+ hours a day, will I begin to feel new sensations and awareness?

 

Maybe try and see the role of the first phase of your meditation as attenuating the mental resistance you are going through.

 

To help with this I suggest a combination of movement and stillness...

 

If you do some more active practice before sitting practice you will help to expend some physical energy, and when you sit to meditate you will find it easier to settle.

 

But, 15 minutes a day is better than 1 hour a day once a week.

 

I have read about the benefits and extrasensory abilities that qijong, yogi, and buddhist practices can give you.

 

This in my experience is more about the individuals makeup than about the practices themselves. The practices are a means to an end, crutches to get you somewhere, a rocket blaster that falls away once at the destination.

 

Try to let go of outcomes...if you are sitting there waiting for something to happen > that is what you get.....you get "sitting there waiting for something to happen".

 

But don't take mental resistance and not being able to stop thinking to be a bad thing, just accept what is.

 

The Buddha more or less came to the same conclusions you have (only it took him years ) - that "that as long as you meditate deeply and longly enough, you will be able to achieve those effects regardless.."

 

You might enjoy http://www.meditationexpert.com/meditation-techniques/m_anapanasati_sutra_breathing_yoga_pranayama.html

 

And perhaps realise that the meditation doesn't deliver the "extrasensory abilities" - rather the meditation delivers an irrigation of your bodies, and as they start to "fill up" with life-force - you will experience what you will based mainly upon the "inheritance" from other lifetimes.

 

But then even a fresh starter can get to the top of the mountain in one lifetime...how pure is thine heart?

 

Gnothi Seauton

Edited October 1, 2014 by Horus

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

 

The Buddha more or less came to the same conclusions you have (only it took him years ) - that "that as long as you meditate deeply and longly enough, you will be able to achieve those effects regardless.."

 

...

 

Like the Buddha ever said that. Show me where. The Buddha strove for years trying to find the right method. He spent over 6 years practising asceticism. He had practiced the other styles of meditation too before that.

 

You never defined what kind of meditation you are talking about either.

 

Even anapanasati has need for skillful means in recognizing its stages.

 

Yeah right. Just meditate deep and long and you will succeed. The only thing you will succeed in doing is fooling yourself.

 

And that link that you posted to the meditation expert site is a kind of bastardization of anapanasati, isn't it? The purpose of breath meditation is not to cultivate chi as that page would lead you to believe. And the more chi you gather does not transform the skandas. Vipassana transforms the skandas. Heck, the author of that page even threw in Nisargadatta!

 

This may be much closer to what the Buddha actually taught than some intellectual trying to bend anapanasati into some form of chi cultivation..

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.119.than.html

Edited October 1, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice