Morality of Physical Practices and the Dao

[ganjaboy]

As a cultivator and young man I've come to realize over time that it is highly desirable to adopt a physical practice, for reasons of energy movement dispersion, mental clarity, et cetera. There are many different practices available however, such as martial arts, bodybuilding, yoga.

 

Are practices such as bodybuilding in which one acquires a certain material physique or skill, strength in accordance with the Dao? It seems to me that anything that focuses excessive energy on the self is anti-Dao, and physical strength, while an asset, is temporary, while spirit is eternal. I am seriously considering switching to yoga, as I feel that practices that develop a physique are excessively and inherently selfish. Thoughts?

[thelerner]

Hmnn, in some ways any art can be thought of as inherently selfish. I mean, if you show off your art, be it music, painting or what not isn't that putting excessive work into a temporary asset? Yet many taoists were great artists.

 

In that vein I think you can be a body builder or hard core weightlifter and keep to taoist principles and its simply your thing. What makes you an individual and not a stereotype.

 

So I think few things are anti-Dao if done in the right spirit. I remember one or two yogi's who were renowned for there fantastic strength.

[dust]

What thelerner said. Also, as I see it..

 

Your very desire to abstain from "selfish" behaviour can itself be thought of as selfish. There's no way around that. Unless...

 

Coming to terms with the idea that there is no ego, no constant self, and that everything we do is ultimately useless and in no way benefiting an eternal self -- this is how, I think, we become selfless. I think this leads to a greater feeling of connection with others, leading to compassion & kindness.

 

But as thelerner said, that doesn't mean you can't do what you want. If you enjoy lifting weights, why not? Be happy. (Unless it's harmful, detrimental to your health or cultivation or someone else's..)

[soaring crane]

well, in fact, the body builder body isn't considered very healthy in the 'daoist' perspective. Just take a look at the average Chinese Taiji/Bagua/Xingyi/push hands/Qigong et al Sifu and you'll notice a common body type i.e. small frame, light, little muscle tone, with a paunch belly and big smile. Grab ahold of one of those little guys and you'll be surprised at how quickly they coil on you, like liquid steel, like a python snake. Better be prepared to apologise and bow quickly. I see it like this: More important than muscles are tendons and more important than tendons is the connective myofascial sack. Muscles are easy to work on. The other components of the body, not so much.

 

To experience and express Dao, look into Taiji (or Bagua, Qigong, etc...)

[i am]

You could see spiritual cultivation in general as a selfish pursuit, if you looked at it right...

 

My take on physical activity is this:

 

Is it breaking my body down, or building it up? If I take up a new hobby or job or activity, and I find that it's causing a lot of injuries or wearing down my joints, I stop. You aren't in balance if you're always injured, even if what you're doing is supposed to be "healthy".

 

And that's what you want. A healthy, balanced life. You can't have a healthy spiritual practice if you're neglecting your body. Yoga is great. But so are a lot of other things. Especially if you do them in addition to yoga.

 

I have some weak places on my body. My shoulders are not super strong, and on top of that they are very flexible. Which is why I've injured them a lot. So I do exercises that specifically build up my shoulders. Yeah there's some vanity involved...I like how I look better with strong arms and shoulders. But I do it to work on a weak point in my body. When I help someone move a couch or wrestle with someone or work manual labor for a bit, I can do it without injury.

 

I think a lot of it comes down the intent behind what you're doing. Is it vanity? Some un-examined bias or stereotype or societal pressure? A little of that is unavoidable for most of us, but if it's not hurting you, and there are more enlightened reasons for doing it, I think it's probably fine.

 

Martial arts are a great example. They can be on both ends of the spectrum. Egotistical, power hungry, creating damage all over your body. Or selfless, building your strength up, showing you how to be soft, healing your body, meditative. Etc...

[ganjaboy]

You could see spiritual cultivation in general as a selfish pursuit, if you looked at it right...

 

My take on physical activity is this:

 

Is it breaking my body down, or building it up? If I take up a new hobby or job or activity, and I find that it's causing a lot of injuries or wearing down my joints, I stop. You aren't in balance if you're always injured, even if what you're doing is supposed to be "healthy".

 

And that's what you want. A healthy, balanced life. You can't have a healthy spiritual practice if you're neglecting your body. Yoga is great. But so are a lot of other things. Especially if you do them in addition to yoga.

 

I have some weak places on my body. My shoulders are not super strong, and on top of that they are very flexible. Which is why I've injured them a lot. So I do exercises that specifically build up my shoulders. Yeah there's some vanity involved...I like how I look better with strong arms and shoulders. But I do it to work on a weak point in my body. When I help someone move a couch or wrestle with someone or work manual labor for a bit, I can do it without injury.

 

I think a lot of it comes down the intent behind what you're doing. Is it vanity? Some un-examined bias or stereotype or societal pressure? A little of that is unavoidable for most of us, but if it's not hurting you, and there are more enlightened reasons for doing it, I think it's probably fine.

 

Martial arts are a great example. They can be on both ends of the spectrum. Egotistical, power hungry, creating damage all over your body. Or selfless, building your strength up, showing you how to be soft, healing your body, meditative. Etc...

Interesting point. Whenever I have body-built or intentionally increased muscle mass in the past I have felt very strong driving polar yang forces at the same time, which at times left me uneasy. After all, physical strength can increase potential for violent action. I felt that what I was doing was anticipating violence and a physical confrontation, which I ultimately saw as merely one step already forward into a downward cycle.

 

I don't lift currently, I just do bodyweight exercises and yoga. I also like to run, which I see as more beneficial for health on the whole because it's benefiting most limb systems in the body as well as the heart, and it clears the mind.

 

The reality, I think, is that it's not necessary to have lots of muscle to feel like a man. Being a man to me implies handling your responsibilities, taking responsibility and dealing with the consequences of your actions, and taking care / providing for those you care about. If I build muscle but am still selfish and unrealized as a person, I'm nothing but a big strong child.

[dust]

I don't lift currently, I just do bodyweight exercises and yoga. I also like to run, which I see as more beneficial for health on the whole because it's benefiting most limb systems in the body as well as the heart, and it clears the mind.

 

The reality, I think, is that it's not necessary to have lots of muscle to feel like a man. Being a man to me implies handling your responsibilities, taking responsibility and dealing with the consequences of your actions, and taking care / providing for those you care about. If I build muscle but am still selfish and unrealized as a person, I'm nothing but a big strong child.

 

Why do you want to "feel like a man" ? What does that mean?

 

You are a man. You shouldn't need to "feel like" one.

 

Having responsibilities, and people to provide for, doesn't make you more "man" than if you didn't, and doesn't make you a "better" / more moral person. You can be a good person without those things.

 

For a woman to handle responsibilities, deal with consequences, and take care of those she cares about... does that make her a man? Or conversely, what makes a woman more "woman", if not those same things?

 

Just friendly advice, I don't mean to come off as preachy or angry or anything, but I'd suggest letting go of this modern social ideal of manliness. Just be a person... taking care of people will come naturally.

[mike 134]

i feel that practices that develop a physique are excessively and inherently selfish

 

???? if you think keeping fit is selfish you must think that eating and sleeping are also selfish. Well I guess they are because they benefit you but that's the whole point lol.

[Bearded Dragon]

I just wrote something about selfishness. Might post it later. The crux of it was basically that everything is selfish so the only thing you can do about it is refine your view of self. Then when everything is the same in the end you undoubtedly find that selfishness and selflessness are the same.

[Horus]

As a cultivator and young man I've come to realize over time that it is highly desirable to adopt a physical practice, for reasons of energy movement dispersion, mental clarity, et cetera. There are many different practices available however, such as martial arts, bodybuilding, yoga.

 

Are practices such as bodybuilding in which one acquires a certain material physique or skill, strength in accordance with the Dao? It seems to me that anything that focuses excessive energy on the self is anti-Dao, and physical strength, while an asset, is temporary, while spirit is eternal. I am seriously considering switching to yoga, as I feel that practices that develop a physique are excessively and inherently selfish. Thoughts?

It depends entirely upon you.

 

All soft and no hard, or all spiritual and no physical can mean imbalance.

 

Tao is about balance.

 

Weight based work is essential for some in that it helps the root, for others the root is full.

 

Selfishness is an affliction of the imbalanced mind, not inherent within any given practice.

[Brian]

Ego is quite the sneaky bastard, eh?

[Horus]

Ego is quite the sneaky bastard, eh?

 

Indeed. But once you acclimatise to his tricks, he's actually taught you the formula through suffering - unwittingly he's shown you the door.

 

Turn the key and push!

 

Horatio Jackson: He won't get far on hot air and fantasy.

Baron Munchausen: Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

 

Open the Gates!

[ganjaboy]

Horus: The longer I cultivate the more meaningless physical strength seems to me, because i have so much going on inside spiritually and from an energetic point of view. So I think that my "root" is becoming more full via that means. I'm planning on about ten to twelve years of celibacy, so I think that in that time I should more than transcend the physical means in favor of the spiritual.

[GrandmasterP]

Just cultivate every day.

It kinda 'does itself' after a while.

The 'I' disappears.

In MA that's when you are good enough that you do the moves without consciously thinking about what to do and when.

It just 'comes' naturally to you - faster than you could think what to do.

Same sort of thing happens with a non MA cultivation.

The trick is to just do it, every day.

Edited October 1, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[ganjaboy]

Just cultivate every day.

It kinda 'does itself' after a while.

The 'I' disappears.

In MA that's when you are good enough that you do the moves without consciously thinking about what to do and when.

It just 'comes' naturally to you - faster than you could think what to do.

Same sort of thing happens with a non MA cultivation.

The trick is to just do it, every day.

In that regard then, perhaps training for a sport or a physical discipline every day is a kind of daily practice. You put in your effort every day, nothing less, nothing more - there is a zen to that. I think I'll just not worry about it so much, do what I like to do for physical activity, and balance it with the spiritual component at the same time. I also happen to like creating and performing music - the direct opposite of an athletic (yang) pursuit, yet there should be no reason I cannot balance in my life.

[ganjaboy]

 

Morality is an interesting quality that you bring to the topic of physical cultivation, dhiggs. (The deep importance of this quality is still developing my spiritual cultivation, so I do not want to answer prematurely.)

But I will ask, what are the qualities of a morally rigorous physical exercise?

Not crooked?

Upright?

Sincere?

Naturally virtuous?

Once we can agree on the essential qualities of a moral physical exercise, then we can move on to discussing which moving forms will work best for a practitioner.

**edited my first question for clarity**

I would denote a morally upright physical practice or exercise as something in one in which you are looking to develop yourself and test your limits / better your health and being for you, not for others or out of some sense of ego. That to me indicates a kind of sincerity that is intimate with the self without being completely about the self. My idea however is that your practice or discipline is only a component in a larger lifestyle in which you act in morally virtuous ways and spiritual practices far removed from yourself.

Edited October 1, 2014 by dhiggs

[Harmonious Emptiness]

A lot of exercises help to build the will and strength of intent. What greater advantage than to have a greater will and strength of intent? How you direct that will and intent is equally as important, as also is "knowing when to stop," but sitting around meditating 24/7 might not develop this as needed for the trials of spiritual aspiration, at least at the earlier levels.

 

If you feel that you're doing it for the wrong reasons, then that's something to be aware of, maybe step back for a while from it, but I wouldn't write endurance exercises off entirely.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Horus]

Horus: The longer I cultivate the more meaningless physical strength seems to me, because i have so much going on inside spiritually and from an energetic point of view. So I think that my "root" is becoming more full via that means. I'm planning on about ten to twelve years of celibacy, so I think that in that time I should more than transcend the physical means in favor of the spiritual.

ok then, I'll see you in Buddhahood!

[Horus]

Just cultivate every day.

It kinda 'does itself' after a while.

The 'I' disappears.

In MA that's when you are good enough that you do the moves without consciously thinking about what to do and when.

It just 'comes' naturally to you - faster than you could think what to do.

Same sort of thing happens with a non MA cultivation.

The trick is to just do it, every day.

Yes, once the "I" gets bored enough it surrenders to the higher faculties, heh?

 

And once the Shen grows sufficiently the Qi, Jing, and all they support follow suit.

[Horus]

not for others

Why so?

[Horus]

A lot of exercises help to build the will and strength of intent. What greater advantage than to have a greater will and strength of intent? How you direct that will and intent is equally as important, as also is "knowing when to stop," but sitting around meditating 24/7 might not develop this as needed for the trials of spiritual aspiration, at least at the earlier levels.

 

If you feel that you're doing it for the wrong reasons, then that's something to be aware of, maybe step back for a while from it, but I wouldn't write endurance exercises off entirely.

Yeh, I like where you are going with this.

 

Taoism is about balance. The idea that original self is in balance, aligned with nature.

 

You may find the only use for physical exertion to be the balance toward yin to assist in entering stillness in sitting.

 

Or maybe you will find that balance within, its "your" Path.

 

I get the feeling you would embrace 5 Element Tree Qigong too dhiggs...

[ganjaboy]

Yeh, I like where you are going with this.

 

Taoism is about balance. The idea that original self is in balance, aligned with nature.

 

You may find the only use for physical exertion to be the balance toward yin to assist in entering stillness in sitting.

 

Or maybe you will find that balance within, its "your" Path.

 

I get the feeling you would embrace 5 Element Tree Qigong too dhiggs...

The reason I said that I don't think your physical practice should be for others is because I think it's a false motivation. If you're building big muscle to attract attention, then it's very much an ego thing... that said, I'm not even particularly sure ego exist. All that matters is what YOU, yourself, not your ego, bring to the table of life. How you interact with others and what your spirit shares.

 

I'm still in a very experimental phase of my life. I try to work on changing the body and the spirit at the same time, which I see as yin and yang that complement each other. Cultivation / retention has over time made me soft-spoken and non-ostentatious, but there is a definite hot fire that is burning inside... if I feel wrongdoing being done to myself or others i'm not hesitant to stand up about it. Courage.

 

I've noticed that retention in particular makes me particularly sensitive to masculine vibes from other guys, it's like I'm on the same frequency with amplitude multiplied 1000x. My inner man get really on edge when i'm around guys with strong jing, much in the same way my inner monkey goes nuts over attractive young ladies...

 

Then i fast / meditate for long enough and both feelings disintegrate into nothingness. To dust returned. Emptiness isn't a bad place to be sometimes, and certain forms of exercise (endurance) or physical practice can certainly humble you and put you in emptiness, which is the whole point.

[dwai]

As a cultivator and young man I've come to realize over time that it is highly desirable to adopt a physical practice, for reasons of energy movement dispersion, mental clarity, et cetera. There are many different practices available however, such as martial arts, bodybuilding, yoga.

 

Are practices such as bodybuilding in which one acquires a certain material physique or skill, strength in accordance with the Dao? It seems to me that anything that focuses excessive energy on the self is anti-Dao, and physical strength, while an asset, is temporary, while spirit is eternal. I am seriously considering switching to yoga, as I feel that practices that develop a physique are excessively and inherently selfish. Thoughts?

To harmonize with Dao, you need to connect to Yuan Qi. To connect to Yuan Qi you need to first feel, then flow and then refine and strengthen your own Qi. By strengthen I mean increase the vibrational frequency of your Qi.

 

Things like weightlifting will increase muscular tension, which results in reduced Qi flow and Qi sensitivity. To feel, flow and grow your Qi you need to stretch gently, relax but not be limp. So, someone suggested Daoist internal practices such as taiji, bagua etc - I would recommend that too.

 

Body building (muscle bulking up) is bad for your Qi and therefore bad for harmonizing with Dao. Doing free-hand exercises like how traditional Martial arts training occurs is not bad, because it balances strength training with stretching and flexibility. And the strength training is done with your own body weight - thereby resulting in lean, powerful physique as opposed to bulky balls of muscle

[ganjaboy]

To harmonize with Dao, you need to connect to Yuan Qi. To connect to Yuan Qi you need to first feel, then flow and then refine and strengthen your own Qi. By strengthen I mean increase the vibrational frequency of your Qi.

 

Things like weightlifting will increase muscular tension, which results in reduced Qi flow and Qi sensitivity. To feel, flow and grow your Qi you need to stretch gently, relax but not be limp. So, someone suggested Daoist internal practices such as taiji, bagua etc - I would recommend that too.

 

Body building (muscle bulking up) is bad for your Qi and therefore bad for harmonizing with Dao. Doing free-hand exercises like how traditional Martial arts training occurs is not bad, because it balances strength training with stretching and flexibility. And the strength training is done with your own body weight - thereby resulting in lean, powerful physique as opposed to bulky balls of muscle

Thank you. I've noticed that when power is developed in the arms, for instance, the energy concentrates there, stagnant, and I feel less in other parts of my body. Weightlifting alone, also, does not by any means necessarily make me feel "stronger" or safer - only as far as the next strongest man. It doesn't necessary integrate spirit either. I need to FEEL that life energy (Qi, Shen, and Jing in particular, because of where I'm at).

 

So from what it sounds like you are saying a better option is to combine flexibility with strength, as opposed to sheer strength alone. I guess I'll stick wih cardio workouts and bodyweight exercise for the time being. Yoga poses have also been good for daily discipline, for me. I haven't ever gotten into taji but I am going to make that a priority as of now.

 

I do like running (endurance and speed) because it does promote that lean, flexible physique that you mentioned, and it also has a psychological element like yoga (runner's high).

Edited October 2, 2014 by dhiggs

[dwai]

Thank you. I've noticed that when power is developed in the arms, for instance, the energy concentrates there, stagnant, and I feel less in other parts of my body. Weightlifting alone, also, does not by any means necessarily make me feel "stronger" or safer - only as far as the next strongest man. It doesn't necessary integrate spirit either. I need to FEEL that life energy (Qi, Shen, and Jing in particular, because of where I'm at).

 

So from what it sounds like you are saying a better option is to combine flexibility with strength, as opposed to sheer strength alone. I guess I'll stick wih cardio workouts and bodyweight exercise for the time being. Yoga poses have also been good for daily discipline, for me. I haven't ever gotten into taji but I am going to make that a priority as of now.

 

I do like running (endurance and speed) because it does promote that lean, flexible physique that you mentioned, and it also has a psychological element like yoga (runner's high).

Doing something like Taiji or Bagua will help you "relax but not be a wet noodle" (it seems it's important to explain what relax is not in Taiji as much as it is to explain what it IS).

 

What it does is integrate your whole being...and you don't even realize it. Even when we're seemingly not making any progress, we are actually making progress (in fact more progress happens when we don't feel the change apparent).

 

If you are looking to feel "stronger", then too it is a good idea to practice the Internal arts. Master Waysun Liao, the Master of our style of tai chi (Temple Style Tai chi) expresses this in his books as "converting from a rabbit to a Cat". That is the internal alchemy...where the very fiber of your being is being transformed with practice. It makes you stronger, more centered, more self-assured and more powerful. Yet this can be in a very non-threatening way. You would become the person that calms situations down as soon as you enter a space. The stillness acquired via internal arts is also reflected back on our environment...

 

Okay...enough plugging for Taiji. Enjoy your practice and don't take things too seriously