Choosing Between Daoism and Buddhism

[Kongming]

Hello, I rarely drop by these parts (or anywhere else on the internet for that matter) but have had a question that has been nagging me which I thought some of the figures on this forum may be able to assist with.

 

As hinted at in the title of the thread, I can't seem to find my particular path or know whether this is even necessary. I have a strong attraction to Daoism (in general really but I like the early Lao-Zhuang material and Quanzhen the most, with a lesser interest in Shangqing) and Chan Buddhism on the one hand, but also some interest in the East Asian esoteric Buddhist traditions (as exhibited by Japanese mikkyo or Shingon, but also where these elements exist in the Chinese sphere.)

 

My question is, how does one determine which of these three one should follow? Is it possible to follow all three, or in other words could one call oneself a "Buddho-Daoist"? Do you think the three strains mentioned are compatible with each other? Do you know of any famous masters or schools which have drawn from them or identified with both traditions? If it is better to follow just one path, is there any crucial elements from either tradition that differentiates them so as to be able to find which one is right?

 

Thanks in advance for any insight on these matters.

[Slim]

The Three Teachings as one (Sanjiao heyi 三教合一) has been a powerful cultural movement in China over the last 1000 years, the three teachings being Daoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism. The two Daoist teachers I have had over the years were very comfortable drawing from both Buddhism and Confucianism. So yes, many do mix it up.

 

My sense is that with Chinese traditional stuff the most important thing in terms of identity is who your teacher and lineage is, not so much broad conceptual categories, such as Buddhist or Daoist. If you don't have a teacher it doesn't matter too much; just follow what resonates with you.

 

My Daoist teacher reminded me a couple of months ago that the practices I was learning were not the way, but just stuff that helps us on the way to understand our true self. This might apply to your question. Perhaps our "particular path" is also broader then any spiritual categories.

[Bearded Dragon]

Buddha wasn't buddhist. Laozi wasn't taoist.

[Gerard]

Follow both...but in the end it's all in the mind even when you are working on returning to the Tao/Source. So Buddhism at the highest level and Taoism in the works. Morality, compassion, service to others (so a bit of Confucianism is also thrown in) are other issues shared by both, make no mistakes here.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Gerard

[BaguaKicksAss]

Do you not have a day job, or no social life? Personally it is the social life that I don't do much, so I can focus on more than one practice..... that is one catch with more than one practice is that they all take time to become decent proficient at and actually get somewhere with.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I have a hard enough time figuring out what Chinese Buddhism is still Indian based rather than than Daoist and Confucian teachings augmented by Buddhist theory. At the same time, it's difficult to know how much of Daoist teaching is not influenced by Daoist influenced Buddhism. I'd say they are all mutually complementary.

 

There are rare instances of fundamentalism which would disallow mixing, and if your path is one of them, so be it. Perhaps fundamentalism is the way to go. Who knows.. not me!

[Wayfarer]

Hello Kongming, a great question. Not sure this will help but I can empathise with you;

 

I was searching for years trying to find a local Zen practice; eventually I joined a Thich Nhat Hanh group and later realised this is not 'Zen', I left and joined the British Taoist Association but their meetings are difficult to get to and when I did join them I felt they were a little controlled. I have friends who are Druids and I go and see them. Ultimately, I've made friends from each of those practices and I return just to see them. I set up my own Taoist group but even that doesn't fill the heart somehow.

 

Bearded Dragon's quote is true and an important point. What I have learned is that there may appear to be two things 'pushing' us into practice; the ego that wants to 'be' a Taoist, Buddhist, Druid, priest/monk etc or the heart that yearns for expression and deepening. To me, what the heart wants is not to be a Taoist but the Tao (which it is anyway) so if we need a practice it is to help that expression to fruition.

 

So my friend; turn your ear inwards and listen to what you love, what opens your heart and helps you sing...it will probably not be what you expect...try a few practices and see what fits. In the end, they all become much of a muchness; they are afterall trying to describe the same things.

 

Best of luck with it because I know how hard it can be to feel a 'fit' with something.

 

Heath

[Protector]

Boom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shugendō

[idiot_stimpy]

You don't need to label yourself as anything.

[Rara]

Hello, I rarely drop by these parts (or anywhere else on the internet for that matter) but have had a question that has been nagging me which I thought some of the figures on this forum may be able to assist with.

 

As hinted at in the title of the thread, I can't seem to find my particular path or know whether this is even necessary. I have a strong attraction to Daoism (in general really but I like the early Lao-Zhuang material and Quanzhen the most, with a lesser interest in Shangqing) and Chan Buddhism on the one hand, but also some interest in the East Asian esoteric Buddhist traditions (as exhibited by Japanese mikkyo or Shingon, but also where these elements exist in the Chinese sphere.)

 

My question is, how does one determine which of these three one should follow? Is it possible to follow all three, or in other words could one call oneself a "Buddho-Daoist"? Do you think the three strains mentioned are compatible with each other? Do you know of any famous masters or schools which have drawn from them or identified with both traditions? If it is better to follow just one path, is there any crucial elements from either tradition that differentiates them so as to be able to find which one is right?

 

Thanks in advance for any insight on these matters.

I know some that practice philosphies/religions simultaneously. My friend in Indonesia told me about "tri-dharma"...elements of Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism.

 

If you don't know your path, explore and the path will open up for you by itself.

 

Don't necessarily seek out famous masters either. Sometimes the best people to learn from are all around you.

 

Enjoy yourself!

[forestofclarity]

One could take a Buddhist view, and say there is no right answer, no fixed standard by which to measure which path is right or which is wrong. Or one could take a more Taoist view, and say there is no wrong answer, that whatever you choose is the right way for you, even if it turns to look like an error.

[Kongming]

Hey, thanks for the replies everyone. My only concern was that I don't want to be too "New Age", such as claiming to be a Buddhist-Taoist-Hermetic-Druid or something, but rather follow an authentic path at some point in the future. As of now I am not associated with any particular school or lineage, but I do some basic practices on my own.

 

In short, I could see just being a "Daoist", especially in Quanzhen which as far as I understand it integrates a lot of Chan. My relation to Buddhism outside of Chan is my love of the Avatamsaka Sutra as translated by Cleary, and again some of the esoteric practices, namely mantra. I do a mantra practice (one of the ones not requiring initiation) and plan on eventually doing the complete sadhana with mudra, visualization, etc and this is a practice I don't want to give up on. So while it is easy to be a Daoist and study/appreciate Chan or vice versa, I was more worried about extraneous practices. Is it appropriate for a Daoist (say part of a lineage or school like Quanzhen) to recite a Buddhist mantra and has anyone seen anything of this sort done?

 

As to the person who mentioned Shugendo, I am also interested in this and would love to practice some day, but my only worry would be language barriers. Currently I am learning Mandarin rather than Japanese, so I figured I'd be limited in that regard.

[GrandmasterP]

East of Suez you'll travel a long way to find a Buddhist Temple that doesn't have a Daoist shrine out back , usually for burning paper tributes.

Many Daoist places have a Quan Yin shrine on site.

Mix n Match has been around for centuries.

Be pragmatic and do what suits you best but be aware that, unless you are Chinese ; here in the west you'll be hard put to find any groups to join and be able to 'fit in' with.

No problem at all on a hermit path though.

Labels are just labels.

Wishing you all success on your path.

 

Edited September 30, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Slim]

Is it appropriate for a Daoist (say part of a lineage or school like Quanzhen) to recite a Buddhist mantra and has anyone seen anything of this sort done?

 

Yes. There are some more fundamentalist Daoist groups out there that don't like any Buddhist stuff mixed in, but my sense is they are in the minority.

 

With my first Daoist teacher we would regularly use Buddhist chants side by side with Daoist chants. And my second Daoist teacher travelled through Tibet for years learning from the head of a Tibetan Buddhist lineage. For both of these teachers Daoism was their day job so-to-speak but they still had no trouble mixing things up. My second teacher is a lineage holder of a major Daoist lineage in China, and has a lot at stake in making sure his lineage gets passed on. So even at the level where a person is heavily invested in Daoism there is still a lot of flexibility. But I guess that's a product of the training: flexibility and non-attachment.

[CloudHands]

"Relations with other religions and philosophies

See also: Vinegar tasters

Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism are one, a painting in the litang style portraying three men laughing by a river stream, 12th century, Song Dynasty.

Many scholars believe Taoism arose as a countermovement to Confucianism.^[120] The philosophical terms Tao and De are indeed shared by both Taoism and Confucianism,^[121] and Laozi is traditionally held to have been a teacher of Confucius.^[122]Zhuangzi explicitly criticized Confucianist and Mohist tenets in his work. In general, Taoism rejects the Confucianist emphasis on rituals, hierarchical social order, and conventional morality, and favors naturalness, spontaneity, and individualism instead.^[123]

The entry of Buddhism into China was marked by significant interaction and syncretism with Taoism.^[124] Originally seen as a kind of "foreign Taoism", Buddhism's scriptures were translated into Chinese using the Taoist vocabulary.^[125] Representatives of early Chinese Buddhism, like Sengzhao and Tao Sheng, knew and were deeply influenced by the Taoist keystone texts.^[126]

Taoism especially shaped the development of Chan (Zen) Buddhism,^[127] introducing elements like the concept of naturalness, distrust of scripture and text, and emphasis on embracing "this life" and living in the "every-moment".^[128]

Taoism on the other hand also incorporated Buddhist elements during the Tang period, such as monasteries, vegetarianism, prohibition of alcohol, the doctrine of emptiness, and collecting scripture in tripartite organisation.

Ideological and political rivals for centuries, Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism deeply influenced one another.^[129] For example, Wang Bi, one of the most influential philosophical commentators on Laozi (and Yijing), was a Confucian.^[130] The three rivals also share some similar values, with all three embracing a humanist philosophy emphasizing moral behavior and human perfection. In time, most Chinese people identified to some extent with all three traditions simultaneously.^[131] This became institutionalised when aspects of the three schools were synthesised in the Neo-Confucian school.^[132]

Some authors have dealt with comparative studies between Taoism and Christianity. This has been of interest for students of history of religion such as J.J.M. de Groot,^[133] among others. The comparison of the teachings of Laozi and Jesus of Nazareth has been done by several authors such as Martin Aronson,^[134] and Toropov & Hansen (2002), who believe that they have pararells that should not to be ignored.^[135] In the opinion of J. Isamu Yamamoto ^[136] the main difference is that Christianity preaches a personal God while Theist Taoism does not. Yet, a number of authors, including Lin Yutang,^[137] have argued that some moral and ethical tenets of these religions are similar.^[138][139]"

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism#Relations_with_other_religions_and_philosophies

 

[Bearded Dragon]

Ok looks like I'll have to spell it out. There is a lot of nonsense in regards to the various traditions. Stuff that is not completely useless but serves to direct benefit in regards to spiritual evolution.

 

Perhaps you need a technique to still the mind. Great. Choose one then drop it once it's served it's purpose. Perhaps you're too weak to concentrate on that which matters most. OK, then maybe some energy work might be required. That's all energy work is good for (generation of a baseline of energy such that a continuum of concentration can be maintained).

 

You will find as you search more on this topic that the most valuable material in each tradition is fundamentally the same. It's only the supplementary material that is different. As such you don't have to choose one. Real practice is void of labels.

[Walker]

http://img25.artxun.com/sdc/oldimg/510d/510d22355e609ecce38c924f536b38ba.jpg

[idiot_stimpy]

Hey, thanks for the replies everyone. My only concern was that I don't want to be too "New Age", such as claiming to be a Buddhist-Taoist-Hermetic-Druid or something, but rather follow an authentic path at some point in the future. As of now I am not associated with any particular school or lineage, but I do some basic practices on my own.

 

In short, I could see just being a "Daoist", especially in Quanzhen which as far as I understand it integrates a lot of Chan. My relation to Buddhism outside of Chan is my love of the Avatamsaka Sutra as translated by Cleary, and again some of the esoteric practices, namely mantra. I do a mantra practice (one of the ones not requiring initiation) and plan on eventually doing the complete sadhana with mudra, visualization, etc and this is a practice I don't want to give up on. So while it is easy to be a Daoist and study/appreciate Chan or vice versa, I was more worried about extraneous practices. Is it appropriate for a Daoist (say part of a lineage or school like Quanzhen) to recite a Buddhist mantra and has anyone seen anything of this sort done?

 

As to the person who mentioned Shugendo, I am also interested in this and would love to practice some day, but my only worry would be language barriers. Currently I am learning Mandarin rather than Japanese, so I figured I'd be limited in that regard.

 

 

Why do you need to be something? 'I am a Buddhist', 'I am a Taoist', is just a mental fiction the mind plays with itself.

 

Why limit yourself by defining yourself? Can you really be contained in a definition, a phrase?

[mYTHmAKER]

Get out of your head and into your heart / belly

and make sure you don't wind up with a religion

[Gerard]

Don't necessarily seek out famous masters either. Sometimes the best people to learn from are all around you.

 

Definitively, the lower you go the better since the valleys collect all the water running from the mountains.

 

I enjoy learning from the spontaneity of birds, butterflies, young children and nature spirits; love and compassion from the devas; wisdom of the gods; innocence and genuineness of children, stillness, simplicity and purity of the mountains, rock boulders and trees; the discipline and softness of creeks...these are some examples of good teachers. My deepest gratitude to you all

Edited October 2, 2014 by Gerard

[exorcist_1699]

It somehow relates to your age:

If you are under 20, follow the Zen's way; if you are 20~50 , follow whatever ways you like; if you are over 50, follow the Taoist way plus some gong with body movements.

Why people over 50 should follow the Taoist way?

Because Taoism emphasizes the accumulation of jing and qi as the precondition for any substantial spiritual achievement which the Buddhist way hardly agrees to , and the old people really can't afford to pay the price of wasting time on some unlikely successful enterprise at their age .

Following the Taoist way allows them to lengthen their life expectancy so that they get more time to explore and test different methods ; as a Taoist saying tells us :

"Safeguard their Ming ( physical life essence ) should be the top priority for old people's practice" ('老人修煉以救護宝命為急' )

Why young people under 20 should follow the Zen way ?

Nowadays teenagers are either chasing after girls, addicted to online games or playing sports...if you find one out of ten thousands who is surprisingly interested in Eastern spiritual practice, then that one must be gifted , blessed or the one just reborn to finish some not yet completed job in his/ her last life..

Edited October 5, 2014 by exorcist_1699

[JohnC]

I'm enjoying reading this account, and shugendo sounds cool.

 

Wasn't Quanzhen a sect of taoism that incorporated pretty much everything and every religion? Imagining a dogmatic quanzhen taoist sounds kind of like an oxymoron.

 

 

John

[doc benway]

My question is, how does one determine which of these three one should follow?

No one knows but you - this is unique to each individual. Best to spend some time studying them and interacting with others who practice and eventually you will know... or not. Best to just be OK with not knowing, then it will come to you. Did you ever notice how when you want something or look for it very hard, it is elusive. When you let go, it's right there in front of you.

 

Is it possible to follow all three, or in other words could one call oneself a "Buddho-Daoist"? Do you think the three strains mentioned are compatible with each other? Do you know of any famous masters or schools which have drawn from them or identified with both traditions?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Although I don't see that there's a need to call oneself anything in particular.

Just say, I am studying myself - that is the subject no matter which flavor you prefer.

I'm reading a book by Nan Huai-Chin who fits the bill as a famous master identified with and drawing from both.

Wonderful book I received here on the TTB's from just some random panda, Master Nan explains the Diamond Sutra.

I've had some experience with both myself and there are enormous similarities and significant differences.

In China, according to Chinese friends, there is much less distinction between the two than in the West.

 

 

If it is better to follow just one path, is there any crucial elements from either tradition that differentiates them so as to be able to find which one is right?

Yes - your path.

Whether it is influenced by this or that or a mixture is not so important.

What matters is that it makes sense to you and that you see benefit in your life related to it.

 

In my experience, the Buddhist approach tends to emphasize the heart (love, compassion, relationships) whereas the Daoist approach tends to be more about you (physically and energetically). That is a gross generalization based on my limited personal experience with direct instruction (not just books). Better for you to study and experiment with both and find what's right for you.

 

Thanks in advance for any insight on these matters.

 

Hey, thanks for the replies everyone. My only concern was that I don't want to be too "New Age", such as claiming to be a Buddhist-Taoist-Hermetic-Druid or something, but rather follow an authentic path at some point in the future. As of now I am not associated with any particular school or lineage, but I do some basic practices on my own.

You'll see and hear folks denigrate the "New Age" (not to mention just about anything else).

The path that leads to benefit and insight in your own life is authentic.

No matter how traditional and "authentic" a path is, if it isn't a good fit it is a waste of time.

 

In my experience, you will not get a true picture of a system or method from books, videos, and the internet.

Certainly there is lots of good information out there but there are things you cannot get from media.

Following Daoist or Buddhist teachings transcends mere information.

At a recent retreat, the master pointed out the importance of using that time together to share and connect rather than simply transfer information - that is easily gotten in the digital age. What is not easy to get is the direct "transmission" and by that I mean all of the non-verbal, non-intellectual stuff that is much harder to define.

 

When you meet masters and students of a discipline, you will learn a great deal from their behavior and their demeanor.

There is much to learn beyond information - lot's of non-verbal, non-intellectual learning occurs with direct human interaction.

I've studied with Daoist and Buddhist masters and the personal interactions I experienced with them were light years apart and determined which direction I wanted to go in for myself.

 

 

In short, I could see just being a "Daoist", especially in Quanzhen which as far as I understand it integrates a lot of Chan. My relation to Buddhism outside of Chan is my love of the Avatamsaka Sutra as translated by Cleary, and again some of the esoteric practices, namely mantra. I do a mantra practice (one of the ones not requiring initiation) and plan on eventually doing the complete sadhana with mudra, visualization, etc and this is a practice I don't want to give up on. So while it is easy to be a Daoist and study/appreciate Chan or vice versa, I was more worried about extraneous practices. Is it appropriate for a Daoist (say part of a lineage or school like Quanzhen) to recite a Buddhist mantra and has anyone seen anything of this sort done?

 

As to the person who mentioned Shugendo, I am also interested in this and would love to practice some day, but my only worry would be language barriers. Currently I am learning Mandarin rather than Japanese, so I figured I'd be limited in that regard.

Don't worry so much about what's right or wrong. It is your life and path. If you want to practice Qigong and recite mantras, that's fine. I will say this, however; many of these systems are the way they are for a reason and mixing and matching practices may not be the most expedient way to see results. I think it is helpful to develop a certain fundamental understanding and skill level in one system before judging it and before mixing and matching. There is certainly no harm, however, in studying writings and even receiving teachings from master of different disciplines but it can be confusing and easy to lose your way.

 

Most important of all - enjoy the journey!!!

It is all about the journey - today, here, now - tomorrow never comes and the past doesn't exist.

[Wayfarer]

Enjoyed your reply Steve and your signature quote from Nisargadatta too. Thanks for sharing. Best wishes, Heath

[Brian]

The words of George Box come to mind:

 

"...all models are wrong, but some are useful."