Is self defense egotistical?

[Rocky Lionmouth]

To me fear is important, its one of the most useful survival tools for many speices, its encoded very deep and when listened to from a calm state of mind fear delivers crucial information about oneself and ones surroundings.

Terror and paranoia ototh, that'll make you look and smell like prey.

[Silent Answers]

 

And why should daoists be ascetics? You know what asceticism is, right? It's forced. Daoists tend to not do that forced shtick, since that's at odds with the Way of Emptiness:

 

"Does one scent appeal more than another? Do you prefer this flavor, or that feeling? Is your practice sacred and your work profane? Then your mind is separated: from itself, from oneness,from the Tao. Keep your mind free of divisions and distinctions.

When your mind is detached, simple, quiet, then all things can exist in harmony, and you can begin to perceive the subtle truth."

-Hua Hu Ching, Walker translation, chapter 11.

 

Also, Ruan Yi and Liu Ling where notorious drunkards in their time, so there's that too.

 

Regarding the OP, you are stuck in duality. Affirm one pole and you've implicitly called the other pole into existance. Dissolve both. To a daoist, there is no "egoism" or "non-egoism", since such dualistic notions are banned to the realm of fiction, where they belong. Holding on to such notions causes wildgrowth in your emotions. Keep your mind simple, and such questions won't even arrise.

That's exactly what I'm referring to, just with a different interpretation.

 

If we eat chocolate (the regular kind).. Or add sugar to sweeten other things.. Are we not doing so because the self yearns that flavour, that sugar fix? Then comes the question: are we eating it because we like the flavour or because we have built up an addiction for sugary treats? It may seem like a minor thing, but giving up sweet things can be pretty tough.

 

I'm not trying to complicate things with rules, I just question every action and decision I make that comes from a self based desire.

 

Regarding martial arts, I think that is more clean cut. Regarding body building, again there's a distinct difference between doing it for health and vanity. But... When it comes to unhealthy snacks and sugary treats, where is the plus side that isn't rooted in self?

[Wayfarer]

To the original post:

 

The answer depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. Ultimately, Taoism and Buddhism (among others) are trying to help us realise that we are not a 'we' and 'us' or an 'I"' we are That which is itself all that there is. This Thing we call Tao or Buddha-Self is untroubled as it has nothing to fear as there is nothing but itself...so fighting, anger, survival are actions of the ego.

 

The problem is this Namless Thing is not experiencing itself, it is simply Experience...so it does not know what it is. Consequently we cannot know what we are, only how we are and in experiencing enlightenment we realise there is nothing that enlightenment happens to and there is nothing that is deluded...there is only No-Thing and we are That.

 

Unless we have Awakened to the above Reality we think we will die; so our nature is to want to survive. Look to nature for your own answers; things are being killed every second of the day as food or by accident, or from fighting etc etc. Learning to defend yourself is a natural consequence of wanting to survive. So your martial art is natural and simultaneously contrived. It relies on your ego. Where the ego to die in the moment of Realisation you would be unlikely to continue your martial art.

 

When I die, all that has happened is the True-Self that was expressed as me, has now changed its expression but itself has remained unchanged.

 

To actually ask your question and to have it answered requires the experience of the ego. When we are as IT is, there is a kind of thoughtless awareness that is rooted in a great settled peace...we respond to what arises without contemplating it; so a person with a knife is LIFE simply arising and your running away from it is a reaction to that. Compassion is no different unless we think about it...it is a response to LIFE arising in however it appears at that time. Buddha, Tao, God - this ONE is LIFE. Life is water, trees, people, stones, space, dust, planets...all the face of a Single Unchanging Totality.

 

Do you want to go further down the rabbit hole? Then don't think about it

[Marblehead]

To think compassion cannot be unlimited is a failure to recognize it could only be limited or restricted by the moment a being ceases choosing compassion. Compassion is how Love manifests, if one destroys all fearful thoughts, one lives in unbreakable elation of Love and Compassion by default.

 

Death is only a fearful thing for those who do not embrace it equally as they do life. Recognize they are inseparable. Recognize no amount of causing harm to defend oneself results in liberation. For that matter, now amount of 'practicing' anything results in liberation. Only the choice to gain awareness and appreciation of ones inherently liberated state can cause liberation.

Sorry, my friend, but that to me is circular logic. You have gone no where.

 

Compassion is limited. Life is limited. All manifestations are limited. Only Tao is unlimited. But we can say what

Tao is, can we?

 

I recently spoke of death and being beyond death. Being beyond death is to have no fear of death as we have already experienced it.

 

Being compassionate is the lack of fear of opening one's self to others. And the reason there is no fear is because we understand the limits of our compassion.

 

Likewise, knowing the limits of life reduce and may even eliminate the fear of death.

 

I respect your Buddhist perspective but it doesn't work in my life. Many others would agree with you.

[Marblehead]

To me fear is important, its one of the most useful survival tools for many speices, its encoded very deep and when listened to from a calm state of mind fear delivers crucial information about oneself and ones surroundings.

That is always a good argument. Worthy of great consideration. I prefer, however, to replace fear with knowledge. If we know whatever then we will interact with it in an appropriate manner so that there no longer is any need for fear. Caution? Oh! Absolutely!

[beyonder]

That's exactly what I'm referring to, just with a different interpretation.

 

If we eat chocolate (the regular kind).. Or add sugar to sweeten other things.. Are we not doing so because the self yearns that flavour, that sugar fix? Then comes the question: are we eating it because we like the flavour or because we have built up an addiction for sugary treats? It may seem like a minor thing, but giving up sweet things can be pretty tough.

 

I'm not trying to complicate things with rules, I just question every action and decision I make that comes from a self based desire.

 

Regarding martial arts, I think that is more clean cut. Regarding body building, again there's a distinct difference between doing it for health and vanity. But... When it comes to unhealthy snacks and sugary treats, where is the plus side that isn't rooted in self?

You misunderstand. In the final analysis, doing is the same as non-doing. That's why a daoist eventually lives out a normal life; because the sacred and profane coincide in the mundane. And sometimes that involves eating chocolate and sugar.

[Marblehead]

You misunderstand. In the final analysis, doing is the same as non-doing. That's why a daoist eventually lives out a normal life; because the sacred and profane coincide in the mundane.

I have and still am trying very hard to never agree with statements such as above. It gives too much justification to being a lazy ass. (Yes, there is a difference between a Taoist Sage and a lazy ass.)

[beyonder]

I have and still am trying very hard to never agree with statements such as above. It gives too much justification to being a lazy ass. (Yes, there is a difference between a Taoist Sage and a lazy ass.)

I on the other hand never agree with a non sequitur. Do tell how you reached that conclusion.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

That is always a good argument. Worthy of great consideration. I prefer, however, to replace fear with knowledge. If we know whatever then we will interact with it in an appropriate manner so that there no longer is any need for fear. Caution? Oh! Absolutely!

Thats the whole point of fear (and all emotional responses) imho, to bring and expand knowledge. To me a healthy relationship with fear will make me explore the frightful experiences so i know what i fear and why, but im on the great "surrender to yourself to know and accept yourself as is" loop of the ride so it makes sense to me to sayt his now. Who knows about next year? I can distance myself fully from all emotions i guess, but it slowly kills me. I'd rather have them as counsellors than not.

 

(What follows is not directed at Mr. Marble but just musings around the op...)

 

So if its egoitistical or not is of little import in the next round of questions, why is egotistical an adjective you want to append to self defense? Purposely killing someone who's trying to beat you up, id call that egotistical, but punching the lights out of someone who wants to hurt you for whatever his own reason, isnt all that egotistical in my book, that managing consequences of letting something go even further than it already has... Or something.

 

Ive never had to defend myself in adult life but theres been plenty of talking some drunk fool down or try to leave before the situation got heated in the first place, but thats even more egotistical because i dont want to be in legal trouble for hurting someone or getting banned from my kung fu for ending up in a fisticuffs i helped make happen. I might even take a punch or two just to be rid of the whole situation because i dont want to deal with whatever would come out of me responding. I've never met someone who made explicit his intent to end my life, idk what that would turn out to.... Rant rant rant

 

 

Edited to clarify and make sense.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Marblehead]

I on the other hand never agree with a non sequitur. Do tell how you reached that conclusion.

I have never asked anyone to agree with me and likely never will.

 

However, I reached that conclusion by way of observing reality and real people. I forget who first coined it but he (I think it was a he) said that the human animal is naturally lazy and will use whatever reason is available to not do work.

 

I don't agree with this as an absolute statement but I have seen it proven true too often to not accept it as a truth in many cases.

 

The Hippies of the 60s/70s used "wu wei" - "do nothing" as an excuse to be lazy. I have heard from enough Buddhists to know that this philosophy is very strong with Buddhist followers as well.

 

And then there are just the normal, everyday lazy people. I encountered many of them in the Army and then in local government after I retired.

 

The Taoist Sage does things. But most people do not understand what (s)he is doing therefore they suggest that the Sage does nothing. This is far from the truth.

[Marblehead]

(What follows is not directed at Mr. Marble but just musings around the op...)

 

I didn't take it personally but would like to make this comment again that I have made on this forum a number of times: Do what needs be done, nothing more, nothing less.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Marblehead

[dust]

"treat the small things seriously, and the large things lightly. This way nothing becomes unmanageable." (Dao De Jing)

 

Which chapter is this?

 

Sounds a lot like advice from the Hagakure, but I don't recognize it from the DDJ...?

[Silent Answers]

You misunderstand. In the final analysis, doing is the same as non-doing. That's why a daoist eventually lives out a normal life; because the sacred and profane coincide in the mundane. And sometimes that involves eating chocolate and sugar.

My last comment on this so as to not hijack the OP for too long (I'll read and possibly like a reply though)..

 

First off, I like you, but we just don't agree on this point.

 

With immortality being pretty high up on the Taoist list of things to do, looking after our body is of the utmost importance. Ok so a bit chocolate won't kill us... But it does feed the self. The averagely functioning body has no need for all that sugar. The liver could do without being doused in alcohol. The lungs would prefer not to be filled with smoke. All are addictive substances (albeit of varying levels) that serve no benefit, other than to satisfy the self. (That list could go on, of course)

 

Chocolate was just a playful example, but one that does have an effect on self, and only encourages more.

 

By the way, don't take this as me trying to outrank you. I said "us" in the original for a reason.

[dust]

辠莫厚唬甚欲 No crime is worse than deep desire,

咎莫僉唬谷㝵 No fault is more common than greed,

化莫大唬不智足 No turmoil is greater than not knowing what is enough.

智足之為足 Knowing enough as enough,

此恆足矣 This will always be enough

 

^{(from the Guodian)}

 

 

As I see it, defending oneself from an attacker and eating chocolate and drinking beer and running naked through the mountains are perfectly natural things for a human to do. One can be selfless and still enjoy the experience of being alive. For me, the warning is not to get too caught up in any particular thing.

 

The DDJ is there to help me enjoy life more thoroughly, not to make me live an ascetic existence of fasting, celibacy, and boredom...

 

 

Therefore, with someone who values taking care of his life more than running the world,
To him we can entrust the world.
And with someone who dotes on his life as if it were the whole world,
To him we can turn over the world.

_{(Henricks's Guodian translation ch.13)}

Edited October 4, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Silent Answers]

辠莫厚唬甚欲 No crime is worse than deep desire,

咎莫僉唬谷㝵 No fault is more common than greed,

化莫大唬不智足 No turmoil is greater than not knowing what is enough.

智足之為足 Knowing enough as enough,

此恆足矣 This will always be enough

 

^{(from the Guodian)}

 

 

As I see it, defending oneself from an attacker and eating chocolate and drinking beer and running naked through the mountains are perfectly natural things for a human to do. One can be selfless and still enjoy the experience of being alive. For me, the warning is not to get too caught up in any particular thing.

 

The DDJ is there to help me enjoy life more thoroughly, not to make me live an ascetic existence of fasting, celibacy, and boredom...

 

 

_{(Henricks's Guodian translation ch.13)}

I'll reply this as it's not just related to chocolate haha. What you have said certainly is one side of the coin, and I know this what you were getting at too, Beyonder.

 

However, if you buy into evolution...should our distant relatives (non human) had stuck with that notion, we may have never left the oceans. I dream to be more than this stage of human, although it is still just a dream.

[Brian]

Be aware of the ripples you create. Manifest with intent.

 

Remain calm. Be a good and moral person. Practice your qigong daily.

[thelerner]

Be aware of the ripples you create. Manifest with intent.

 

Remain calm. Be a good and moral person. Practice your qigong daily.

Yeah. The worst things about fighting be it physical, internet, or whatever is the ripples. Like knocking down a chain of dominoes you'll never know what you've set in motion. But once you set a negativity loose in the world, it may keep going and going and whether you know it or not you've made the world a little worse.

 

On the third hand we're only human. Sometimes we can walk away, othertimes we can't, but we can try to create more peace then problems. ie Realize when we've gone negative and try to balance it with some positive uplifting comments. Be aware of slights we've given others and try to balance them out by going out of our way to help others. Kind of a self imposed penance.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Which chapter is this?

 

Sounds a lot like advice from the Hagakure, but I don't recognize it from the DDJ...?

 

Was a paraphrase from memory, but the idea is in chapter 63 and 64

Edited October 5, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[beyonder]

I have never asked anyone to agree with me and likely never will.

... Thats... Pretty cool, actually.

 

However, I reached that conclusion by way of observing reality and real people. I forget who first coined it but he (I think it was a he) said that the human animal is naturally lazy and will use whatever reason is available to not do work.

 

I don't agree with this as an absolute statement but I have seen it proven true too often to not accept it as a truth in many cases.

Alright. That's not what I stated, though. I was getting at the issue that ultimately, wu wei leads to a normal life. And no extraordinary measures are needed over and above a certain detached (from ideas) and open attitude. I stated it in the most generalised terms possible (doing and non-doing. Kinda vague on my part...), but I could restate that as: "self affirmation and self denial are ultimately the same thing".

[beyonder]

My last comment on this so as to not hijack the OP for too long (I'll read and possibly like a reply though)..

 

First off, I like you, but we just don't agree on this point.

 

With immortality being pretty high up on the Taoist list of things to do, looking after our body is of the utmost importance. Ok so a bit chocolate won't kill us... But it does feed the self. The averagely functioning body has no need for all that sugar. The liver could do without being doused in alcohol. The lungs would prefer not to be filled with smoke. All are addictive substances (albeit of varying levels) that serve no benefit, other than to satisfy the self. (That list could go on, of course)

 

Chocolate was just a playful example, but one that does have an effect on self, and only encourages more.

 

By the way, don't take this as me trying to outrank you. I said "us" in the original for a reason.

"Hexagram 30, nine in the third place means:

 

In the light of the setting sun,

Men either beat the pot and sing

Or loudly bewail the approach of old age.

Misfortune.

 

Here the end of the day has come. The light of the setting sun calls to mind the fact that life is transitory and conditional. Caught in this external bondage, men are usually robbed of their inner freedom as well. The sense of the transitoriness of life impels them to uninhibited revelry in order to enjoy life while it lasts, or else they yield to melancholy and spoil the precious time by lamenting the approach of old age. Both attitudes are wrong. To the superior man it makes no difference whether death comes early or late. He cultivates himself, awaits his allotted time, and in this way secures his fate."

http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#30

Edited October 5, 2014 by beyonder

[Marblehead]

 

Alright. That's not what I stated, though. I was getting at the issue that ultimately, wu wei leads to a normal life. And no extraordinary measures are needed over and above a certain detached (from ideas) and open attitude. I stated it in the most generalised terms possible (doing and non-doing. Kinda vague on my part...), but I could restate that as: "self affirmation and self denial are ultimately the same thing".

Yea!!!!! We have attained understanding. And I actually agree with you here.

 

This is a perfect example of why we should never stop trying to understand each other. It is a given that we will not always agree but that's not nearly as important as understanding the other's perspective. This at least opens the door for possible agreement.

[dust]

Was a paraphrase from memory, but the idea is in chapter 63 and 64

 

I figured that was it, but was kinda hoping you were quoting Yamamoto sensei! (would've brought a twist to the conversation!)

 

I've been struggling with chapter 63. There seems to be very little agreement amongst translations... but that's a discussion for the TTC forum..

Edited October 5, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

I've been struggling with chapter 63. There seems to be very little agreement amongst translations... but that's a discussion for the TTC forum..

And I will be watching for you to go there.

[Perceiver]

Egotistical?

 

Only if you believe in meeting a killer's knife with a loving embrace. In which case it will be the only and last time you'll meet it.

 

To be alive in the world is to be responsible for unfolding your own existential purpose and respecting the unfolding of other's in a meaningful and loving way. The indiscriminate killer does the exact opposite of that. And that's why it's fair to stop him.

[Perceiver]

Beyonder:

Taoist sages lead normal lives?

 

Well they don't become sales and marketing managers, government officials or banking executives, if that's what you mean.

 

But normal lives? The taoist "sages" or close to - that I know - are writers, artists, teachers, businessmen, adventurers, lovers, friends, warriors.

 

I suspect they lead the most intriguing and nerve-wracking lives you can think of. Which, however, may be quite normal..