Power corrupts - Even spiritual leaders & enthusiasts

[z00se]

The problem is with large groups of people. Monolithic organizations, like the church, larger companies, or even to some extent thetaobums believe it or not. Increased size of an organisation breeds greed which in this case was seen in the need to be seen as having views that were politically correct or 'safe'.... sound silly? Hear me out...

 

For those unaware, i was banned due to supposedly inciting racism (see the thread - The Cult Of Racism) and it opened my eyes to a very real universal truth, one of which i was partially ignorant to and thought it good to discuss here.

 

I have no hard feelings about being banned, for that is tao + te, however i would have thought this the ideal form that would be full of open minded people who were for open expression and discussion of peoples understandings of tao + te through free speech. Obviously i could have made another account and easily evaded the ban, but it ended up being a blessing in disguise and without this distraction i finished the theoretical part of my bowen therepy training and so now only another 6 months and i will be qualified, insured and practicing! Woohoo! Anyhow...

 

Power corrupts, and reduces an individuals ability of free will and speach. People then begin dictating virtues with or without solid reason (or at least without being able to give one), to try to keep the strength of the organisation strong for the sake of the integrity of the organization's values (or what i belived them to be). A feeling of guilt, especially when you are the one in control, and the initiator, leads to the beginnings of panic, and the need for a scapegoat to place blame on to redirect attention and feel at ease. It seemed to me perhaps i was the only real place to redirect the blame to since i didn't have operator status and was the easiest target. In this way they demand conformance so that they may attract newcommers, or that newcommers will have a high opinion of them.

 

It's a bit like the people in power putting Jesus on the cross (Obviously on a minute scale ;-). People devote large portions of their life trying to understand god, tao, etc, yet it is often that these people who understand TAO the least. Most of these people don't really want to understand it, that is why they reject their impressions of it when it is staring them right in the face, and they continue seeking on the path forever. They want the ideal of oneness, yet they lose the oneness and their individuality unless they can accept the truth. In those unawakened, power dictates truth through fictional narratives.

 

I have seen this corruption in the soul through the increase of attention and power of more than one person on thetaobums over the years. I'm sure these people would dismiss it as untrue, yet people who once clearly spoke their mind allow their opinions to be slightly twisted and honeycoated for the appearance of the masses and to attract more followers. People lose the very privalige of the freedom that they hope to help others achieve. They also go further to allow others to speak for them, and though perhaps they may not believe in what has been said, they allow it to go unchecked because what has been said has been popular. They become fearful of what they may lose, high opinions of others, favour, clients, or followers.

 

It seems the longer i practice the better i understand why those who are true masters just keep to themselves, because truely speaking is often a waste of time. As a wise person mentioned on here a while ago, the truth is plain as day, anyone who cultivates sees it so obviously, and it is so easy to spot those who just spread those words of books or texts that they've read and by putting it in a context, or by slightly changing it they thought they've put their own spin on it and made it theirs. They will always be followers until they realise themselves.

 

So my warning to all, beware who you follow, cultivate yourself, not other's ideas, if you trust somebody listen to them, not somebody speaking for them. And finally my lesson of the month, people are the same everywhere, evil exists everywhere, putting a spiritual name on something doesn't make it good, infact it makes it easier for evil to lurk. Just look at the lawsuits against the catholic church in recent times....

[CloudHands]

Nice, so sad you wrote it because you were ban for racist propaganda...

[GrandmasterP]

Power corrupts always and everywhere.

You are correct.

Powerlessness, on the other hand; is not of necessity virtuous.

We've all come across, currently powerless; back stabbing ambitious bastards eager to climb the greasy pole to power.

Virtue is a conscious choice.

Edited October 3, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Spotless]

It is so easily assumed that power corrupts - it is also a great teacher.

 

However much it may blind us, it is also something we wield and that confronts us, bloats us, consumes us and exhausts us.

 

There are lessons of a similar type for the martyr.

 

Identification and being confronted with it and its ultimate futility is a great part of the great compressions of transformation.

 

Labeling something as good or evil - looking for lurking evil - this is identification with ones judgement.

Evil does not exist in the relative - robots live in the relative - they know not what they do.

This does not mean we should stand by and view atrocities with no recourse - it is not what I am trying to convey.

 

What we view as the best in ourselves - that part of us we are proud of and identified with - this is the harder part for us to see.

We will be confronted with our racism at some point as we see how crude, indelicate and reactive we may have been, but all the thousands of ways in which we dissipate ourselves and entertain our capacities of self absorption is what make the "evil" possible.

 

The vast majority of what constitutes a good person is no different than what constitutes a "bad" person. For the most part, their is no person at all.

 

Look at the rise of Germany under Hitler. Millions of "good" people doing the bidding of 1 singular inhabited body. Did they suddenly become "bad people"? Or were they as robotic and sleepy as those that awoke to stop them?

 

We keep doing this stuff over and over again - and we write books on it as though we have discovered that "power corrupts" or that "evil is lurking" - this is framing that puts meat on vapor. (It is clear and in-arguable and it sounds as though we are saying something) Vapor that creates buzz - the aha - I've got it - I can see this now! - How to be happy and avoid life's pitfalls in Ten easy steps!

 

Their is no wiggle room in this - whether we are dealing with power or the lack of it or all degrees of it - the illusion of this power as ours and our ability to choose virtue any more than vice is illusion.

 

We may happen to be in a "virtue" choosing space and say "this is what should be done, it is the correct course of action, the mindful choice" or we may be in the pro-active space of "this needs to change and the end justifies the means because no one else is going to do what needs to be done". We may look at someone who is overweight and say "how can people treat their bodies in that way - my god what a waste" or we may look at someone in super shape and say "that person has way to much time on their hands".

 

We set our alarm clocks with enthusiasm - but who wakes up and either hits the snooze button, calls in sick or gets up and jumps in the shower is often anyone's call because we are comprised of so many different "I's" the winner is a crap shoot.

 

I am not in agreement or disagreement with the original poster.

 

It is just that we might try to just stop amid the inertia of what we perceive as a discovery and see that we jump forever from one discovery to another with no ultimate satisfaction from our discoveries until at some point we put it down and breath and point no finger, notice no thing, see nothing.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Spotless

[gendao]

All our problems ultimately originate in our own subconscious mind (powerlessness, racism, etc) - and become resonated, reflected & shadow projected into our outer lives. Because deep down, there is no real "other"...only on the "outer" conscious physical level.

For example, if you believe that "power corrupts," then you will:

1) Keep experiencing such experiences that corroborate your belief

2) Repel power from yourself, because you don't want to get corrupted, thus further deepening your spiral...

 

Fill out the free worksheets on Byron's site yourself and begin your self-inquiry/healing when you're ready..

And if you're not, then just keep angrily playing your own victim and continue suffering...until you are.

Edited October 3, 2014 by vortex

[Spotless]

The tuning forks are a good example of exactly what they show - keep in mind that "sympathetic" does not imply a vibration that agrees with another vibration, but one that is similar to it:

 

You can have a Republican that hates Democrats and a Democrat that hates Republicans - if the two come near each other they both start to resonate.

 

Hate radio spreads negative resonance over vast distances because it energizes "repeater stations" (humans) all over the globe listening to it. This is also true of "outrage" radio.

Both create reactionary repeater stations utilizing our most robotic nature - our positions.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Spotless

[dust]

people are the same everywhere

 

Enough said.

 

A shame you couldn't have realised this before you spewed that racist nonsense in the other thread.

[Nungali]

The problem is with large groups of people. Monolithic organizations, like the church, larger companies, or even to some extent thetaobums believe it or not. Increased size of an organisation breeds greed which in this case was seen in the need to be seen as having views that were politically correct or 'safe'.... sound silly? Hear me out...

 

For those unaware, i was banned due to supposedly inciting racism (see the thread - The Cult Of Racism) and it opened my eyes to a very real universal truth, one of which i was partially ignorant to and thought it good to discuss here.

 

I have no hard feelings about being banned, for that is tao + te, however i would have thought this the ideal form that would be full of open minded people who were for open expression and discussion of peoples understandings of tao + te through free speech. Obviously i could have made another account and easily evaded the ban, but it ended up being a blessing in disguise and without this distraction i finished the theoretical part of my bowen therepy training and so now only another 6 months and i will be qualified, insured and practicing! Woohoo! Anyhow...

 

Power corrupts, and reduces an individuals ability of free will and speach. People then begin dictating virtues with or without solid reason (or at least without being able to give one), to try to keep the strength of the organisation strong for the sake of the integrity of the organization's values (or what i belived them to be). A feeling of guilt, especially when you are the one in control, and the initiator, leads to the beginnings of panic, and the need for a scapegoat to place blame on to redirect attention and feel at ease. It seemed to me perhaps i was the only real place to redirect the blame to since i didn't have operator status and was the easiest target. In this way they demand conformance so that they may attract newcommers, or that newcommers will have a high opinion of them.

 

It's a bit like the people in power putting Jesus on the cross (Obviously on a minute scale ;-). People devote large portions of their life trying to understand god, tao, etc, yet it is often that these people who understand TAO the least. Most of these people don't really want to understand it, that is why they reject their impressions of it when it is staring them right in the face, and they continue seeking on the path forever. They want the ideal of oneness, yet they lose the oneness and their individuality unless they can accept the truth. In those unawakened, power dictates truth through fictional narratives.

 

I have seen this corruption in the soul through the increase of attention and power of more than one person on thetaobums over the years. I'm sure these people would dismiss it as untrue, yet people who once clearly spoke their mind allow their opinions to be slightly twisted and honeycoated for the appearance of the masses and to attract more followers. People lose the very privalige of the freedom that they hope to help others achieve. They also go further to allow others to speak for them, and though perhaps they may not believe in what has been said, they allow it to go unchecked because what has been said has been popular. They become fearful of what they may lose, high opinions of others, favour, clients, or followers.

 

It seems the longer i practice the better i understand why those who are true masters just keep to themselves, because truely speaking is often a waste of time. As a wise person mentioned on here a while ago, the truth is plain as day, anyone who cultivates sees it so obviously, and it is so easy to spot those who just spread those words of books or texts that they've read and by putting it in a context, or by slightly changing it they thought they've put their own spin on it and made it theirs. They will always be followers until they realise themselves.

 

So my warning to all, beware who you follow, cultivate yourself, not other's ideas, if you trust somebody listen to them, not somebody speaking for them. And finally my lesson of the month, people are the same everywhere, evil exists everywhere, putting a spiritual name on something doesn't make it good, infact it makes it easier for evil to lurk. Just look at the lawsuits against the catholic church in recent times....

 

Naaah ...

 

power does corrupt - but your post reads more like this is just a cover for you still being pissed over the censorship .

 

... I had hoped you might return with more insight around the thread you refer to ... especially in regard to post # 44 .

 

Comparing yourself to a 'minute scale' Jesus on a cross was interesting.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Nungali

[z00se]

All our problems ultimately originate in our own subconscious mind (powerlessness, racism, etc) - and become resonated, reflected & shadow projected into our outer lives. Because deep down, there is no real "other"...only on the "outer" conscious physical level.

For example, if you believe that "power corrupts," then you will:

1) Keep experiencing such experiences that corroborate your belief

2) Repel power from yourself, because you don't want to get corrupted, thus further deepening your spiral...

 

Fill out the free worksheets on Byron's site yourself and begin your self-inquiry/healing when you're ready..

And if you're not, then just keep angrily playing your own victim and continue suffering...until you are.

 

MMmm, it doesn't feel like a problem to me, or if it could be classified as a problem by others i don't consider it one myself, i feel no anguish. What is life without your own ideas, without just following the crowd, or for that matter rising above them. Difficulties it brings are welcomed.

 

I don't think i would repel myself from power, infact i like it. Too much power however would make me lose happiness and so that would not be something i would seek. I prefer to be one of the kings lead advisers, not the king himself.

 

Watching the part of your video, perhaps my opinions are slightly misunderstood due to cultural differences. Perhaps my view is seen as one of like a university student whome has no actual experience and my ideas are just theoretical. Well Australia is sure alot more multicultural than America. Walking through Melbourne i see more Asian people (especially Chinese) than White people. We have refugees, lots of europeans, lots of people from all over. The percentage of the traditional white Australian to immigrated people is very low compaired to multiculturalism in any other country. Therefore i don't think i am like a uni student, rather i think the American people's view is different to anybody else's just due to the extreme violence and oppression-ism in the past, which can be seen in the irrational fear of the people in the video. However i'm sure there are times when that fear isn't irrational and so then it's not silly at all and well placed. Having lived in 3 different countries and having visited several more (unfortunately not America yet) with different levels multiculturalism, i can honestly say that this fear is far more prevalent in America than any other place i have been to. I believe this fear is non-existent in Australia. But people can only go by what they have seen and know so i accept any negativity thrown my way.

 

On a side note, one thing that baffles me, is the large amounts of people that come from other countries (the majority who come from countries that i would call over developed and populated - even though westerns consider them 'developing countries'), that move to Australia because obviously they feel they can have a better life here, where there are less people, more countryside, less developments and more natural beauty..... But all of us idiots are trying our very hardest and working our arses off to develop our country and increase our population so that we can change our country into a place similar to the ones that people are currently coming to Australia to get away from. What the?

 

 

We keep doing this stuff over and over again - and we write books on it as though we have discovered that "power corrupts" or that "evil is lurking" - this is framing that puts meat on vapor. (It is clear and in-arguable and it sounds as though we are saying something) Vapor that creates buzz - the aha - I've got it - I can see this now! - How to be happy and avoid life's pitfalls in Ten easy steps!

 

Their is no wiggle room in this - whether we are dealing with power or the lack of it or all degrees of it - the illusion of this power as ours and our ability to choose virtue any more than vice is illusion.

 

To me it wasn't an ah'-ha moment, power corrupts is a well known fact, to me it was just another layer off the onion, believing that there were appropriate forums for unchecked self expression, but to be safe all things need to be considered speaking out regardless of the forum. Not even the confession box could one feel safe.

 

Democracy is one big facade where freedom in reality is not what is promised in theory. It can be seen no clearer than in Australia currently, with terrorist threats, it would be ridiculous to think that your every conversation was not analyzed as to whether big brother liked it or not. Democracy needs to protect it's self, corrupted by it's own power it's just the opposite side of the coin to communism. Democracy appears free on the top level, but deep down it is complicated and not free at all. In communism nothing appears free on the surface but deep down the system is much freer and open than democracy, so long as you don't try to make that freedom official. Having lived in both systems i have the experience to know what i am talking about.

 

Look at the rise of Germany under Hitler. Millions of "good" people doing the bidding of 1 singular inhabited body. Did they suddenly become "bad people"? Or were they as robotic and sleepy as those that awoke to stop them?

 

Well worded, nicely put, i like it. I did have an opinion to that topic but i won't waste my time, you put it so eloquently.

 

 

Evil does not exist in the relative - robots live in the relative - they know not what they do.

 

I don't agree with this, i'm sure they do know what they do. Whether if they realize it or not, or more likely choose to ignore it, i would believe more to be the case.

 

It is just that we might try to just stop amid the inertia of what we perceive as a discovery and see that we jump forever from one discovery to another with no ultimate satisfaction from our discoveries until at some point we put it down and breath and point no finger, notice no thing, see nothing.

 

We are a long time dead, plenty of time for that then

 

Ahh the cleverness of quiet a few of the people on this forum is why i love it. I was clever once upon a time, unfortunately i don't have the patients to be clever in this way anymore, nor does it suit my goals. ;-)

 

Sometimes i feel in the cleverness of expression, high levelled expression so to speak, words that come from people highly enlightened, the words take on the characteristics of light. Penetrating, pervading, truthful and just, however they pass through the space as light does also. Unaffecting with reduced power to create change. Put in plain and basic terms, there is a point where it can become too high where it goes over the heads of more and more people so that the audience it reaches becomes just as limited as those with no cultivation express their views which lack any insight.

 

Of course people with that capacity have the ability to tone the frequency down a little, perhaps it is with intent that only the targeted ears are reached. I guess freedom of speech in this way is maintained and time is not wasted with useless resistance. I see it as right in so many ways yet not all the boxes are ticked. Without resistance change can not be brought about with such efficiency. Intent to change may be futile however the wisdom of the warrior and the wisdom of the sage are both valid, and at the point they converge is the sweet spot.

 

There is a time for action, and a time for flowing, knowing or realizing this is as useless as a perfectly drafted business plan, being able to put it into action is the source of income.

 

I am young, i still have fight in me, when i'm old i can float between the winds, but for now i enjoy the push pull, i enjoy feeling the power in my punch as push it out, the resistance.... and i do have energy to burn so to speak

 

 

*ahhh taobums fix*

[z00se]

Naaah ...

 

power does corrupt - but your post reads more like this is just a cover for you still being pissed over the censorship .

 

... I had hoped you might return with more insight around the thread you refer to ... especially in regard to post # 44 .

 

Comparing yourself to a 'minute scale' Jesus on a cross was interesting.

 

hahah you're post #44? I'll let you make your own mind up about those differences, i think it's quiet obvious if you be honest to yourself. I intentionally didn't make any reference towards anything specific in that thread because it obviously appeared it wasn't something some people, or more importantly the person who banned me, was comfortable talking about. I won't reference the content of that thread in that context again out of respect for those in power

 

Glad i sparked your interest haha

 

Censorship is corruption of power where supposedly it is free speech

[Marblehead]

I managed to ignore this thread for nearly 36 hours. I just scanned it. Nice rant. Even valid to a certain degree.

 

But I wouldn't agree with a statement like, "Power always corrupts." This is because there are those who know how to properly use their power in a positive manner and attain good results.

 

Yes, even freedom of speech has its limits just as do all other concepts and basically everything in the manifest realm.

 

On another forum I was talking about music and typed Doo Wop music. The Wop got censored because it is a word that is sometimes used in the same context as the "N" word.

 

Censorship is not always a bad thing. Oftentimes it lessens the possibility we will offend another person unknowingly.

[3bob]

It is so easily assumed that power corrupts - it is also a great teacher.

 

However much it may blind us, it is also something we wield and that confronts us, bloats us, consumes us and exhausts us.

 

There are lessons of a similar type for the martyr.

 

Identification and being confronted with it and its ultimate futility is a great part of the great compressions of transformation.

 

Labeling something as good or evil - looking for lurking evil - this is identification with ones judgement.

Evil does not exist in the relative - robots live in the relative - they know not what they do.

This does not mean we should stand by and view atrocities with no recourse - it is not what I am trying to convey.

 

What we view as the best in ourselves - that part of us we are proud of and identified with - this is the harder part for us to see.

We will be confronted with our racism at some point as we see how crude, indelicate and reactive we may have been, but all the thousands of ways in which we dissipate ourselves and entertain our capacities of self absorption is what make the "evil" possible.

 

The vast majority of what constitutes a good person is no different than what constitutes a "bad" person. For the most part, their is no person at all.

 

Look at the rise of Germany under Hitler. Millions of "good" people doing the bidding of 1 singular inhabited body. Did they suddenly become "bad people"? Or were they as robotic and sleepy as those that awoke to stop them?

 

We keep doing this stuff over and over again - and we write books on it as though we have discovered that "power corrupts" or that "evil is lurking" - this is framing that puts meat on vapor. (It is clear and in-arguable and it sounds as though we are saying something) Vapor that creates buzz - the aha - I've got it - I can see this now! - How to be happy and avoid life's pitfalls in Ten easy steps!

 

Their is no wiggle room in this - whether we are dealing with power or the lack of it or all degrees of it - the illusion of this power as ours and our ability to choose virtue any more than vice is illusion.

 

We may happen to be in a "virtue" choosing space and say "this is what should be done, it is the correct course of action, the mindful choice" or we may be in the pro-active space of "this needs to change and the end justifies the means because no one else is going to do what needs to be done". We may look at someone who is overweight and say "how can people treat their bodies in that way - my god what a waste" or we may look at someone in super shape and say "that person has way to much time on their hands".

 

We set our alarm clocks with enthusiasm - but who wakes up and either hits the snooze button, calls in sick or gets up and jumps in the shower is often anyone's call because we are comprised of so many different "I's" the winner is a crap shoot.

 

I am not in agreement or disagreement with the original poster.

 

It is just that we might try to just stop amid the inertia of what we perceive as a discovery and see that we jump forever from one discovery to another with no ultimate satisfaction from our discoveries until at some point we put it down and breath and point no finger, notice no thing, see nothing.

 

Mr. G was an interesting screw up and talked in ways similar to this... along with admitting to such in the end.

 

Along with some eyewitness to such, for instance:

 

The biographer James Webb stated: "There is no doubt at all that Gurdjieff had sexual relations with many of his pupils" (The Harmonious Circle, pp. 331). Webb also described his subject in terms of "a sensual man who enjoyed the pleasures of the bed as much as those of the table" (ibid., p. 332). According to Gurdjieff's pupil John G. Bennett:

 

"At certain times he led a strict, almost ascetic life, having no relation with women at all. At other times, his sex life seemed to go wild and it must be said that his unbridled periods were more frequent than the ascetic. At times, he had sexual relationships not only with almost any woman who happened to come within the sphere of his influence, but also with his own pupils." (Bennett, Gurdjieff: Making a New World, p. 231)

 

In terms of a moral example, Gurdjieff is glaringly deficient. Whether or not he was legally married to Julia Ostrowska, he evidently believed that he was justified in making extra liaisons resulting in children. The dancer Elizabeta Galumnian is reported to have bore him a son, Sergei. The extent of his promiscuous activity is a subject of speculation. Some very strange statements appear in the literature. Frank Lloyd Wright (who married Olgivanna) said in an interview that Gurdjieff admitted to 104 sons and 27 daughters of his own, and "for all of whose education he has made provision." However, he told others in New York that he had ten of his own children (reported in Taylor, Gurdjieff and the Children).

Edited October 4, 2014 by 3bob

[soaring crane]

Can someone please put this in a nutshell for the comprehension deficient members. Members like for example. Is the OP making the case that the TTB admin is corrupted by power?

[Marblehead]

Small nutshell:

 

Not directly. Most of his statements are generalizations. He's not all wrong with the generalizations. He knows why he had to take a vacation.

 

He is still having a problem with this, I think.

Censorship is corruption of power where supposedly it is free speech

We don't have total free speech here. We are not allowed to make threats of violence; we are not allowed to insult other members or groups of people. These are the rules of the owner. It has nothing directly to do with the moderators who are only doing what the owner demands (I initially used the word "requests" but that was the wrong word; demands is the proper word).

 

Anyhow, we'll see if he is willing to comply with the rules he already said, by becoming a member, that he would comply with.

[z00se]

I have used generalisations and discussed the subject as a whole because my intent was to discuss the subject as a whole, not my isolated case. Of course i did think perhaps through the general discussion conclusions could then be drawn from the discussion that would enlighten some to my views and my opinions of my case.

 

They are differing comprehensions due to a range of different factors, one i believe is cultural, but regardless, it doesn't matter, we're allowed to have different opinions and it's not like i got my hand cut off so it's all good.

 

There is nothing cryptic, or the intent for anything cryptic in anything i see in this thread, it's all just plain words which can be interpreted in different ways. Anyone who reads with their eyes and not their brains will see that.

 

To say i still have some problem with it is probably wrong. I did have some problem initially, not with the fact that i was banned, but more so the dissapointment that i had lost an avenue in which i felt i could freely express myself while i believed i WAS following the rules. But different interpretations of this lead to the ban so obviously i will withhold for the sake of those who do not understand my perspective. Those who understand my perspective would understand that i meant no offence to anybody and clearly expressed that respect was of the utmost importance, and it was my intention that i expressed respect to all throughout the whole of my posts. I truely would suck at cultivation if i felt fustrated all month just so i could try to get back at people haha. No i wrote down a couple of notes at the time and left it at that, then compiled them into my post the other day.

 

I also understand however that people have different jobs to do, if we didn't have moderaters perhaps we wouldn't have this board and somewhere to discuss and read about things like this. Nobody likes the umpire but we all want to watch the game.

 

I want to clearly express that there is, or never was any frustration towards any individual, rather a frustration that some people couldn't empty their glasses of their current beliefs to allow them to see my points of view, and at least acknowledge them for what they were. Especially since there were some that were open minded, and confident or awakened enough to even express to others that they may try to see it from my perspective. I didn't expect anybody to commit, for they were my views and not necessarily theirs, but it sheds some insight into how to lead. It is the leaders responsibility to change the view of the majority, inject an incentive for the change, then the people will convince themselves. As mentioned before, I don't like to lead.

 

I didn't want the thread to be about me, i wanted it to be about the topic. It has been however enlightening for me to read it and i think it would be good if anyone else could learn from reading about it in the future.

[Marblehead]

Hi zOOse,

 

You said many important things in the above post. But the most important, I think, is this last paragraph:

 

I didn't want the thread to be about me, i wanted it to be about the topic. It has been however enlightening for me to read it and i think it would be good if anyone else could learn from reading about it in the future.

As far as I'm concerned it is still about the topic. However, it is about you too because the opening post are your thoughts. No matter how hard we try we cannot separate the thought from the thinker.

 

And even when we make generalized statements there will be those who, upon reading, will think, "He's talking about me." And sadly, if there was anything insulting in the generalization then that individual will consider you to have made a personal insult. Sure, we can say that "they" have a problem but the results are still the same.

 

I've said enough for now and will shut up unless further inspired to again speak.

[soaring crane]

It's all good, thank you. My question was legitimate, not rhetorical, and I wasn't asking on behalf of the mod team. It's a good subject of discussion :-)

[Spotless]

 

MMmm, it doesn't feel like a problem to me, or if it could be classified as a problem by others i don't consider it one myself, i feel no anguish. What is life without your own ideas, without just following the crowd, or for that matter rising above them. Difficulties it brings are welcomed.

 

I don't think i would repel myself from power, infact i like it. Too much power however would make me lose happiness and so that would not be something i would seek. I prefer to be one of the kings lead advisers, not the king himself.

 

Watching the part of your video, perhaps my opinions are slightly misunderstood due to cultural differences. Perhaps my view is seen as one of like a university student whome has no actual experience and my ideas are just theoretical. Well Australia is sure alot more multicultural than America. Walking through Melbourne i see more Asian people (especially Chinese) than White people. We have refugees, lots of europeans, lots of people from all over. The percentage of the traditional white Australian to immigrated people is very low compaired to multiculturalism in any other country. Therefore i don't think i am like a uni student, rather i think the American people's view is different to anybody else's just due to the extreme violence and oppression-ism in the past, which can be seen in the irrational fear of the people in the video. However i'm sure there are times when that fear isn't irrational and so then it's not silly at all and well placed. Having lived in 3 different countries and having visited several more (unfortunately not America yet) with different levels multiculturalism, i can honestly say that this fear is far more prevalent in America than any other place i have been to. I believe this fear is non-existent in Australia. But people can only go by what they have seen and know so i accept any negativity thrown my way.

 

On a side note, one thing that baffles me, is the large amounts of people that come from other countries (the majority who come from countries that i would call over developed and populated - even though westerns consider them 'developing countries'), that move to Australia because obviously they feel they can have a better life here, where there are less people, more countryside, less developments and more natural beauty..... But all of us idiots are trying our very hardest and working our arses off to develop our country and increase our population so that we can change our country into a place similar to the ones that people are currently coming to Australia to get away from. What the?

 

 

 

 

To me it wasn't an ah'-ha moment, power corrupts is a well known fact, to me it was just another layer off the onion, believing that there were appropriate forums for unchecked self expression, but to be safe all things need to be considered speaking out regardless of the forum. Not even the confession box could one feel safe.

 

Democracy is one big facade where freedom in reality is not what is promised in theory. It can be seen no clearer than in Australia currently, with terrorist threats, it would be ridiculous to think that your every conversation was not analyzed as to whether big brother liked it or not. Democracy needs to protect it's self, corrupted by it's own power it's just the opposite side of the coin to communism. Democracy appears free on the top level, but deep down it is complicated and not free at all. In communism nothing appears free on the surface but deep down the system is much freer and open than democracy, so long as you don't try to make that freedom official. Having lived in both systems i have the experience to know what i am talking about.

 

 

 

Well worded, nicely put, i like it. I did have an opinion to that topic but i won't waste my time, you put it so eloquently.

 

 

 

 

I don't agree with this, i'm sure they do know what they do. Whether if they realize it or not, or more likely choose to ignore it, i would believe more to be the case.

 

 

 

We are a long time dead, plenty of time for that then

 

Ahh the cleverness of quiet a few of the people on this forum is why i love it. I was clever once upon a time, unfortunately i don't have the patients to be clever in this way anymore, nor does it suit my goals. ;-)

 

Sometimes i feel in the cleverness of expression, high levelled expression so to speak, words that come from people highly enlightened, the words take on the characteristics of light. Penetrating, pervading, truthful and just, however they pass through the space as light does also. Unaffecting with reduced power to create change. Put in plain and basic terms, there is a point where it can become too high where it goes over the heads of more and more people so that the audience it reaches becomes just as limited as those with no cultivation express their views which lack any insight.

 

Of course people with that capacity have the ability to tone the frequency down a little, perhaps it is with intent that only the targeted ears are reached. I guess freedom of speech in this way is maintained and time is not wasted with useless resistance. I see it as right in so many ways yet not all the boxes are ticked. Without resistance change can not be brought about with such efficiency. Intent to change may be futile however the wisdom of the warrior and the wisdom of the sage are both valid, and at the point they converge is the sweet spot.

 

There is a time for action, and a time for flowing, knowing or realizing this is as useless as a perfectly drafted business plan, being able to put it into action is the source of income.

 

I am young, i still have fight in me, when i'm old i can float between the winds, but for now i enjoy the push pull, i enjoy feeling the power in my punch as push it out, the resistance.... and i do have energy to burn so to speak

 

 

*ahhh taobums fix*

When you quote - reference who you are quoting.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Spotless

[z00se]

Mmm yes Marblehead it sometimes helps to be reminded of what should be obvious.

 

Spotless, i usually press the quote button for the first post i reply to then copy and paste in a quote box the latter quotes, i can add names in, just sometimes if in on my phone its fiddly. Its guess its mainly laziness but also its the content i feel is more important than who said it.

 

Thanks for every bodies input. Perhaps i will aim to be a little more tactful with an eye on peoples emotions and other influences other than black and white openess and uncandyed clear self expression. A little... For that is me

[9th]

Its more like "especially spiritual leaders and enthusiasts".

 

I would say that for most people, the most confusing aspect is that just because a person has non-ordinary abilities (psychic or otherwise) does not mean that they are a saint, or even moderately psychologically developed. All of that stuff belongs to what you could call the "energetic realm" - not what you might call the "spiritual realm". If you dont understand the difference, its advisable to do some research on it, as there are plenty of materials out there and its a necessary distinction to make. For the general public, there is no distinction at all and their expectations are set accordingly - i.e. incorrectly.

 

Someone mentioned Gurdjieff earlier, so I thought I would post this relevant excerpt from one of his books, regarding "mind bullets" (that's telekinesis, kyle):

 

For instance, the development of the power of my thoughts had been brought to such a level that by only a few hours of self-preparation I could from a distance of tens of miles kill a yak; or, in twenty-four hours, could accumulate life forces of such compactness that I could in five minutes put to sleep an elephant.

At the same time, in spite of all my desires and endeavors, I could not succeed in "remembering myself in the process of my general common life with others so as to be able to manifest myself, not according to my nature but according to the previous instructions of my "collected consciousness."

I could not attain the state of "remembering myself" even sufficiently to hinder the associations flowing in me automatically from certain undesirable hereditary factors of my nature.

As soon as the accumulation of energy which enabled me to be in an active state was exhausted, at once associations of both thoughts and feelings began to flow in the direction of objects dia-metrically opposite to the ideals of my consciousness.

When I found myself in a state of complete dissatisfaction with food and sex, the leading factor of these associations of mine appeared to be primarily vindictiveness and, in a state of full satisfaction, they proceeded on a theme of the forthcoming pleasure of a meal and sex or of the gratification of self-love, vanity, pride, jealousy and other passions.

I thought deeply myself and tried to find out from others about the reasons for such a terrible situation within my inner world, but could not clarify anything at all.

And then he goes on to detail his realization regarding "self-remembering" which became the central theme of his system.

 

 

One of the classic resources on this topic is Sri Aurobindo's letter about "the intermediate zone".

One may cross without hurt through it, perceiving at once or at an early stage its real nature and refusing to be detained by its half-lights and tempting but imperfect and often mixed and misleading experiences; one may go astray in it, follow false voices and mendacious guidance, and that ends in a spiritual disaster; or one may take up one's abode in this intermediate zone, care to go no farther and build there some half-truth which one takes for the whole truth or become the instrument of the powers of these transitional planes, - that is what happens to many sadhaks and yogis. Overwhelmed by the first rush and sense of power of a supernormal condition, they get dazzled with a little light which seems to them a tremendous illumination or a touch of force which they mistake for the full Divine Force or at least a very great yoga Shakti; or they accept some intermediate Power (not always a Power of the Divine) as the Supreme and an intermediate consciousness as the supreme realization. Very readily they come to think that they are in the full cosmic consciousness when it is only some front or small part of it or some larger Mind, Life-Power or subtle physical ranges with which they have entered into dynamic connection. Or they feel themselves to be in an entirely illumined consciousness, while in reality they are receiving imperfectly things from above through a partial illumination of some mental or vital plane; for what comes is diminished and often deformed in the course of transmission through these planes; the receiving mind and vitality of the sadhak also often understands or transcribes ill what has been received or throws up to mix with it its own ideas, feelings, desires, which it yet takes to be not its own but part of the Truth it is receiving because they are mixed with it, imitate its form, are lit up by its illumination and get from this association and borrowed light an exaggerated value.

 

[z00se]

Hmmm interesting, but if spiritual is non dualistic, and nothing is evil, how could u be sure what u were doing was always 'good'? And what's good for one group of people isn't always good for another.

 

Mother Theresa supposedly even said before she died she didn't think it was the right thing to do to just help anyone and everyone.

[z00se]

Also, did Gurdjieff mention if or how he validated his ability to put an elephant to sleep or kill a yack from far away?

[Nungali]

Can someone please put this in a nutshell for the comprehension deficient members. Members like for example. Is the OP making the case that the TTB admin is corrupted by power?

 

It certainly seemed to me that is what he was suggesting ... although he was trying to say that without getting a further suspension or ban.

 

- although now the discussion seems to be flowing in another direction.

 

If it is still about power corrupts - my '2 cents' is

 

It can.

 

But the best system of government is 'benevolent dictatorship'.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Nungali

[Marblehead]

Also, did Gurdjieff mention if or how he validated his ability to put an elephant to sleep or kill a yack from far away?

Oh, come on now. You are supposed to accept these things on faith.

 

(Sorry. I couldn't resist.)

[Marblehead]

 

But the best system of government is 'benevolent dictatorship'.

Have you been reading Chuang Tzu again?