Power corrupts - Even spiritual leaders & enthusiasts

[Chang]

Also, did Gurdjieff mention if or how he validated his ability to put an elephant to sleep or kill a yack from far away?

 

I have never heard mention of Gurdjieff curing elephants of insomnia or for that matter partaking of long distance Yak (or even yack) killing. Please elucidate.

[Brian]

 

I have never heard mention of Gurdjieff curing elephants of insomnia or for that matter partaking of long distance Yak (or even yack) killing. Please elucidate.

z00se was referencing a quote 9th shared a few posts earlier.

[Chang]

z00se was referencing a quote 9th shared a few posts earlier.

 

Yes, thank you I have read it now.

[Daeluin]

I've heard more than a few stories about small organizations or businesses that become successful and subsequently sell out their previous values.

 

To me this simply follows the principles of taoist cosmology. People get together and feed energy into the creation of something. At first the people do a lot of work maintaining the creation, forming the structure, adapting it to better meet the external needs. But for the most part the creation continues to operate directly based upon the constant and continuous nurturing of the creators.

 

This is similar to the energies of Heaven ☰ and Earth ☷ in a person who is young and largely unconditioned. As this person develops their ego and enters self-sustainability, the Earthly energy decides to attach to this identity and in so doing the center becomes a pit in which the center line from heaven falls into, and Earth becomes K'an (坎 pit) ☵, and Heaven, having separated from it's center line becomes Li (離 separation) ☲. In a person, this transformation comes when the person is undergoing puberty and entering adulthood - sufficiently attached to their identity to procreate and fend for themselves.

 

In a organization or business it is no different. At some point the business stops being something that is nourished and changed at the sole discretion of it's original creators and becomes something with its own momentum, following its own rules and energetic dynamics. It is now something that has a center that is no longer easily reached and changed from the outside. Now, the people in charge of managing this center focus more on survivability than on ideology.

 

I think a lot of people are frustrated when their favorite taco stand becomes a full blown restaurant with multiple locations, and no longer offers the same secret sauce, friendly chats with the owner, openness to feedback, etc. But from the perspective of the person behind the scenes, things have evolved. In the beginning they gave the business their all, never having any free time, and now with maturation they can set policies so that the business runs itself without them needing to be present or on call at every moment. This is vital to the self-sustainability of not only the business, but of the creator(s).

 

Can power corrupt? Certainly - the I Ching shows the many ways conditioning can arise to shape the primordial energy. But there are also many examples of preservation, which follows the same principles. Whether more corrupt or more preserved, as time passes new rules apply.

 

The yang-yin symbol describes this well. Lesser Yang enters, building the ideas, writing the blueprints, gathering the people, building the momentum, then Greater Yang arrives, centralizes the ideas, unifies the plans, amasses the funding... then it culminates with Lesser Yin and the blueprints are built, the people put to work, until Greater Yin arrives and things have stabilized and are no longer easy to change... but now something exists which is thus exposed to criticism as Lesser Yang arrives again, ideas for change are explored and possibly implemented, again and again, circumstances forever offering the choice to change how things are.

 

Thus the wise only focus their sincerity within, building up nothing external that must be maintained. External projects may only exist as long as we nurture them, but we may nurture ourselves so as to yield to all and yet remain wholly preserved.

 

When external projects must be nurtured, the best way to nurture them is so that they need little change, following standard best practices, adhering to common laws, and avoiding extremes.

[Daeluin]

In regards to spiritual leaders.... we have an energetic dynamic centering around one person. Zhuangzi warns of the loss of freedom which accompanies this, as well the resulting confusion arising from transmissions that are powerful but misunderstood, resulting in doctrines that are attached to for centuries.

 

Some may turn back to uplift others, and do so powerfully affecting great healing, in return becoming the focal point of the powerfully energy of a following of people, which is subsequently turned back to affect greater healing, and so forth - great impeccability is needed in such situations, as elements of external corruption will ever be a knockin'.

 

Anyways.... all back to the Vinegar Tasters. Even as many Taoists follow the path of reversal and preservation, Taoists also respect the process of Creation - Evolution - and corruption is just as vital to evolution as anything else. Power and the ensuing conditioning is the name of the game.

[z00se]

Daeluin thats very insightful. There is a huge difference between a 3 year old and a 13 year old's behaviours!

 

I understand that you can't make everybody happy, so i think it's better to just do what makes you happy otherwise you end up spending all your time running around for everybody else.

 

Perhaps we can discuss how vital corruption is to evolution. I understand things change and the taco shop owner can evolve his business or evolve himself my following another pursuit, otherwise he will become stagnant, but does the shop always need to become larger?

 

I have seen this with a pub i used to visit, it was very cool, laid back with old couches, cool small local live music and a really nice atmosphere with young and middle aged people mingling together great. It had a wonderful vibe, and drew more and more people. The owner closed it down for renovations, put all new stuff inside, made it twice the size, reduced the live local acts, had a bigger bar, etc to accomodate all the extra people. I changed into a packed run of the mill nightclub that just wasn't cool anymore, even though it was still popular. I know of another pub slightly different but similar in another sort of a way. It attracted all the weirdos, but they were all nice people and it was really cool, again all ages. It was steadily popular for 15+ years, they had sumo betting and trivia nights every week and it was also a very cool vibe. It stayed like this until it was forced to closed down because the building was falling down. My point is, when they hit that sweet spot, they may not be packed to the rafters but they're at 80% capacity and well known throughout the town. They both had culture, vibe, soul, and real character. One lost it's identity, one preserved it.

 

I have never really been able to get alot out of the IChing, although i've only read versions i've found for free on the net, is there a translation or commentary you could recommend?

[z00se]

There was another point i wanted to discuss too, (wasn't sure if i should open another thread for it).

Is it better to rule with fear or love? How important do people think power is and the balancedness of it.

 

Ruling by love, you give to people and you have power over them, until they don't need you any more, or you give even more love and teach them how to think for themselves. They're reliance on you is gone.

Ruling by fear, you can control people until there is nothing for them to fear anymore.

I think both can be good and important. In neither way do you need to be nasty.


Eg. Men and women. Men traditionally had alot of power in the family because they bought in the income. The family needed a man. The women had alot of power because she looked after the children. The man needed the woman if he wanted a family.

Now we have daycare and after school care for children so both parents can work. Women have 'equal rights' even though they had equal rights the whole time in my opinion. Nowadays women still have the power of the children according to family law. Man has bugger all legal power, but he still has macho power (infact this is attractive to women i think) to keep the family together).

Anyhow, with these changes, broken familys are widespread, especially in Australia. Especially in Australians. People from other countries in Australia have better family relationships and i think it is because of their overseas cultural background where the man and the woman historically have a more dominant or passive role. The children miss out as a result of divorce in these instances in many ways - in my opinion. Not only children, the society as a whole suffers. I find kids that are in daycare every day and especially after school care tend to be subject to meeting rougher people. Whats more, nobody will take as good a care of your children as yourself. To me this balancing of power is no good. The fear is taken away, and the love on it's own just doesn't cut it in so many of these relationships.

A bit like before we had kings and queens ruling. Now we have governments that have very little power, power is given to the people in the democracy they can vote or choose who they want and the government loses it's effectiveness while trying to keep everybody happy. The balance of power allows the crumbling of society in my opinion.

[Marblehead]

Is it better to rule with fear or love?

Rule by example. (Emotions should not be involved.)

[Brian]

Rule by example. (Emotions should not be involved.)

And rule consistently, with respect to both time and the individual. Rule of law rather than by whim.

[9th]

Also, did Gurdjieff mention if or how he validated his ability to put an elephant to sleep or kill a yack from far away?

 

he did, but to access that information you must first prove that you exist

[z00se]

9th that sounds a bit like that tale about the emperors new clothes

[bax44]

.

 

A bit like before we had kings and queens ruling. Now we have governments that have very little power, power is given to the people in the democracy they can vote or choose who they want and the government loses it's effectiveness while trying to keep everybody happy. The balance of power allows the crumbling of society in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

I dont really have an issue with the rest of your post, but the bolded...are you really sure about this? If anything most governments have too much power. Unless you meant this in another way.

[Trash Filter]

In regards to the topic, I agree. These spiritual people are generally all corrupt. Most people are not able to handle power. They are usually rich elite who have access to all knowledge and all the rest like us, even the ones who earnestly want to do whatever needs to be done miss out.

The world is a negative place, with a lot of control by negative force. But we have to rely on keeping faith in hope.

Those who think they have access to literally all within themselves are living a pipe dream, have their head in the clouds are true hippies.

[Marblehead]

A little too much negativity in that post of yours Trash Filter?

 

Especially this:

The world is a negative place, with a lot of control by negative force.

The world is neutral, an equal balance of negative and positive. I could might agree with the second half of the sentence if you are referring specifically to the human animal.

[ralis]

Its more like "especially spiritual leaders and enthusiasts".

 

I would say that for most people, the most confusing aspect is that just because a person has non-ordinary abilities (psychic or otherwise) does not mean that they are a saint, or even moderately psychologically developed. All of that stuff belongs to what you could call the "energetic realm" - not what you might call the "spiritual realm". If you dont understand the difference, its advisable to do some research on it, as there are plenty of materials out there and its a necessary distinction to make. For the general public, there is no distinction at all and their expectations are set accordingly - i.e. incorrectly.

 

Someone mentioned Gurdjieff earlier, so I thought I would post this relevant excerpt from one of his books, regarding "mind bullets" (that's telekinesis, kyle):

And then he goes on to detail his realization regarding "self-remembering" which became the central theme of his system.

 

 

One of the classic resources on this topic is Sri Aurobindo's letter about "the intermediate zone".

 

Please state a reference to the Gurdjieff book so that others can read the entire context.

[9th]

Please state a reference to the Gurdjieff book so that others can read the entire context.

 

http://www.integralbook.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/GURDJIEFF-G.I.-Life-is-real-only-then-when-I-am.pdf

[9th]

9th that sounds a bit like that tale about the emperors new clothes

 

lets put it another way: can you mention if or how you have validated the fact that you exist?

[Nungali]

Have you been reading Chuang Tzu again?

 

Chuang who ?

 

... I had to look him up ....

 

Although I think if we were sitting by the river here I would say to him ; " I really enjoy watching the fish dart around like that!

[Nungali]

I have never heard mention of Gurdjieff curing elephants of insomnia or for that matter partaking of long distance Yak (or even yack) killing. Please elucidate.

 

 

[Nungali]

There was another point i wanted to discuss too, (wasn't sure if i should open another thread for it).

 

Is it better to rule with fear or love? How important do people think power is and the balancedness of it.

 

 

Depends on the people and situation. In a 'certain situation' I have been in, with 'the people' its been all love.

 

After some recent events ... I think a few of them need to have some absolute fear put into them and their arse kicked !

 

I like this (and no I dont give a fuck where it came from ... I am going on content )

 

" Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil. "

[Marblehead]

"Beware of those in whom the will to punish is strong." F. Nietzsche

[9th]

[z00se]

9th, i can have an opinion, i can move things, i and others can verify it with a ruler imperically. Both physically, emotionally and spiritually i can interact with others and verify it physically. The 3 are inseparable and so any changes in one level can be measured in another level. The physical is the most familiar to us all and so serves as the easiest and best medium for us to verify in.

[z00se]

Bax44, they probably do have too much power now because of technology, but the technology is in the hands of the people too. I mean that the people can just vote a government out now, you need to overthrow a king.

 

how do you think the power should be more evenly distributed?

[z00se]

Nungali, why do 'they' need to get their arses kicked? Can you elaborate?

 

also what do you mean by unbalanced force is evil? I don't see that to be the case. Thanks for contributing.