What is the difference between Dzogchen, Zen and Anapanasati?

[taoguy]

Please forgive me if I sound ignorant, but I'm getting started on this and the variety of methods are confusing me.

 

I've been practising watching the breath for the past few years and have once or twice reached the state where my breath has ceased, giving rise to the awareness of chi movement.

 

I don't understand Dzogchen though, is there an essential difference? Where can I find more resources on it, or do I absolutely need a teacher?

 

Thank you.

[Anderson]

Please forgive me if I sound ignorant, but I'm getting started on this and the variety of methods are confusing me.

 

I've been practising watching the breath for the past few years and have once or twice reached the state where my breath has ceased, giving rise to the awareness of chi movement.

 

I don't understand Dzogchen though, is there an essential difference? Where can I find more resources on it, or do I absolutely need a teacher?

 

Thank you.

Ask on Vajracakra where there are people who know a thing or two about dzogchen.

Especially Malcolm.

[ralis]

Please forgive me if I sound ignorant, but I'm getting started on this and the variety of methods are confusing me.

 

I've been practising watching the breath for the past few years and have once or twice reached the state where my breath has ceased, giving rise to the awareness of chi movement.

 

I don't understand Dzogchen though, is there an essential difference? Where can I find more resources on it, or do I absolutely need a teacher?

 

Thank you.

 

There are a number of very good discussions regarding Dzogchen here on TTB in the Buddhist section.

[asunthatneversets]

There are a number of very good discussions regarding Dzogchen here on TTB in the Buddhist section.

Perhaps buried somewhere deep in the Buddhist section... but certainly not recently.

[doc benway]

Most of the recent Dzogchen discussion here is bogus.

TTB's is not a good place to learn about Dzogchen.

There is some solid info here but even more that is inaccurate.

Tough for someone new to the topic to discriminate.

There is little or no vetting of information here so anyone can post anything on any topic, more or less.

That's what's been going on recently with respect to Dzogchen.

 

If you read the threads here, the posts by asunthatneversets are among the most accurate.

For some unknown reason, rails, zoom, and others like to argue with him and denigrate his posts, but he knows what he's talking about with respect to Dzogchen.

 

Vajracakra has much more accurate and consistent info if this topic interests you.

There is more of an attempt there to substantiate information that is posted regarding the Dharma.

Even Dharmawheel is a better resource although there is as much drama there as in the Buddhist section here, unfortunately.

 

If you sincerely want to practice Dzogchen, you absolutely need a teacher - no other way.

Those that say otherwise don't know what they are talking about.

 

All of the above is simply my opinion.

Good luck

[ralis]

If you sincerely want to practice Dzogchen, you absolutely need a teacher - no other way.

Those that say otherwise don't know what they are talking about.

 

I will respond to the rest of your post later. I have been practicing Dzogchen since I was very young. The practice just came naturally with no teacher.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I would personally worry about learning anything from an internet forum, accept perhaps photoshop (lol). Even with photoshop an in person teacher can get you there 100X faster/better/more accurately.

 

Though that said, asking specific questions, we do have a few members who give some pretty amazing insights/answers . Just wouldn't be good as a primary source imo. This goes for qigong, neigong, martial arts, (and photoshop lol) as well.

 

I went to check out Vajracakra, liked it!!

[Wells]

.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[BaguaKicksAss]

For some unknown reason, rails, zoom, and others like to argue with him and denigrate his posts,

 

While these guys might annoy the hell out of you folks, and iyo give false info.... the replies that a few of you folks give to their statements, questions and posts have helped me understand a lot . They tend to bring the conversation to places it wouldn't naturally go.

[doc benway]

While these guys might annoy the hell out of you folks,

Not so much annoyed anymore, just sad to see a precious, rare, and very precise system misrepresented.

And that leads to disinterest in participating.

 

 

 

and iyo give false info....

More than opinion - fact, but that's ok... the arguments are tiresome.

 

 

the replies that a few of you folks give to their statements, questions and posts have helped me understand a lot . They tend to bring the conversation to places it wouldn't naturally go.

That's great to hear and yes, it is nice to see how discussions go in unpredictable directions.

Sad to see it occur at the expense of accurate information about Dzogchen but such is life at TTB's...

 

Peace

[ralis]

If you read the threads here, the posts by asunthatneversets are among the most accurate.

For some unknown reason, rails, zoom, and others like to argue with him and denigrate his posts, but he knows what he's talking about with respect to Dzogchen.

 

My reason for challenging asunthatneversets narrative is due to the fact that he frequently posts cut/paste snippets that are largely out of context with no comments on his part and his responses are usually one liners. I have requested that persons posting here to write in a clear/succinct manner so that a discussion can ensue. However, most of the time there have been lengthy cut/paste of what Malcolm's opinions are.

 

There is a taboo disseminated by the Tibetan hierarchy that such teachings are only given by qualified guru's. The teachings are said to be protected by forces which are depicted in traditional Tibetan iconography and if one breaks the rules, then certain karmic problems will arise i.e, hell realms and so forth. For all the insight some Tibetan Lama's possess, there is a clinging to certain superstitious beliefs i.e, karma, hell realms and so forth. E.g. the text titled, 'The Torch of Certainty' is full of various beliefs and commands that are right out of the 'Middle Ages'. I still see Buddhists clinging to these superstitions and for the most part have jettisoned critical thinking and accepted such writings with complete acceptance as opposed to asking as to what the consequences such belief systems lead to.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/jul/01/lama-sex-abuse-sogyal-rinpoche-buddhist

 

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_2?rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3AJamgon+Kongtrul&page=2&sort=relevance&ie=UTF8&qid=1412536852

Edited October 5, 2014 by ralis

[C T]

do I absolutely need a teacher?

To answer the above question, in a word, yes.

 

“It is said that all the Buddhas of the three times … achieve Buddhahood through reliance on a spiritual teacher. The essence of reliance on a teacher is unceasing devotion … It protects our practice from obstacles and ensures progress on the path. Devotion to the teacher is thus the core of all our spiritual practice, regardless of the particular stages of the path we cultivate … Although the guru may at first appear to behave in an ordinary human way, his mind really is inseperable in nature from the Mind of the Buddha. …”

-- H.H. Dilgo Khyentsé Rinpoche

 

 

 

It is good for one's own benefit to bear in mind that if one is not agreeable with a particular guru, it is ok to find another one, and for however long it may take (up to 13 years), until such time one is convinced beyond doubt that an agreeable spiritual guide has been found. This is perfectly acceptable; what is not acceptable is to blemish those teachers whom one has found disagreement with - this is for the sake of one's own spiritual health.

 

Accordingly, Asvaghosa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C5%9Bvagho%E1%B9%A3a points out the hazardous disadvantages of disparaging any of one's gurus:

 

He states:

 

Having become the disciple of such a protecting [guru], should you despise him from the heart, you will reap continual suffering as if you had disparaged all the Buddhas.

 

Sufferings that may be incurred traditionally include disease, death by poisonous snakes, and boiling in hell. The six realms of existence as physical locations is a view inherited from ancient Indian culture. In Buddhism, the inner meaning relates to the perceptual anguish of the various deluded samsaric mind states. SO although one need not fear the actuality of snake bites as a result of disparaging one’s lama, the psychological consequences are no less significant to one’s spiritual health.

 

Our perception can certainly become poisoned by narcissism, and the result of indulgence in such a self-centered rationale can certainly lead to hellish mind states in which one tortures oneself with one’s own self-aggrandizing concepts. To be unable to trust and have confidence in a lama who has shown us nothing but kindness, who exhibits endless patience and energy in helping others, and who has invested significant time and effort in our spiritual welfare, is clearly an unfortunate psychological state. To regard something as valuable and important, to take the major step of committing oneself to a teacher, and then to come to despise that teacher is its own unique form of personal psychological hell. If we continue to prioritize our narcissism, we may start to see negative motivation in the lama’s actions, and begin judging everything about the lama by the unreliable, dualistic yardstick of our deluded rationale. Our whole experience of the relationship will become diseased, poisoned, and hellish if we view it through the lens of our own self-interest.

 

We will also do severe damage to ourselves as practitioners — not only of Vajrayana but of any spiritual path. It would be extremely difficult ever again to trust anything apart from our own self-serving perception, and therefor difficult or impossible to make any kind of wholehearted commitment to a teacher or practice in the future. Once we have gone back on our vows, it would be extremely difficult to be able ever to take them again with the same sincerity and enthusiasm. It would require a dramatic shift in perception — and this shift would be as great or greater than the shift we were unable to make that caused the breakage of vows in the first place. Vajrayana practice is not possible without vajra commitment, and so one would lose access to vajrayana completely. It is for this reason that the prospective Vajrayana student should spend as long as neccessary, up to the traditional thirteen years, experimenting with vajra relationship before taking vows and becoming a disciple. A hasty decision which one later comes to regret would be disastrous. Once vajra commitment has been taken, regret cannot be entertained.

 

Nevertheless, it is vital to understand that this commitment must be based on real experience. One needs to know, at the most fundamental level, that this lama can guide one to realization. This sense of knowing may flicker as a result of one’s neurotic personality, but if there has been real experience of transmission, that experience will remain, at least in memory. A vajrayana student can always return to that memory as a source of inspiration. This is absolutely necessary if one is to continually view the vajra master’s activities with pure vision.

Edited October 6, 2014 by C T

[Wells]

.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[ralis]

@asunthatneversets,

 

Here is a direct quote page 31 from 'The Torch of Certainty'. Any reasonable person, myself included, should be appalled at such religious fundamentalism that is foisted as truth, which is based in fear. BTW, I rarely cut/paste, but the Buddhist literature speaks volumes.

 

 

THE EIGHT UNFAVORABLE STATES OF EXISTENCE
IN WHICH INDIVIDUALS ARE DISADVANTAGED
First, meditate as follows: Consider the advantages of this rare human
existence with its eight opportunities and ten blessings, more precious
than a wish-fulfilling gem! Unlike ourselves, beings in the eight un-
favorable states of existen~t are disadvantaged in the following ways:
I. Hell-beings suffer from heat and cold without the slightest
break.
2. Spirits are tormented by hunger and thirst.
3. Animals are stupid and confused, incapable of any understand-
ing or knowledge.
4. Barbarians, born in those numerous borderlands untouched by
Dharma-which far outnumber Buddhist countries--cannot under-
stand it.
5. Long-living gods of the Desire, Form, and Formless realms are
distracted by their love of worldly pleasures and samadhi, and have no
interest in the Dharma. 4
6. Heretics and those who have a natural dislike for the Dharma
hold perverted views.
7. For those born in a dark age in which no Buddha comes and the
attributes of the Precious Ones are not renowned, the world is a desolate
place.
8. Mutes, said to be ignorant of the world of language, are dumb
and do not turn their thoughts to the Dharma.
Nohe of these beings are fortunate enough to .practice Dharma. All
of them are tormented by their past deeds. This is what it means to lack
leisure and opportunity.
You who have not been born into any of the eight unfavorable
states in which individuals 5 are disadvantaged, possess eight kinds of
opportunity. But though pu have obtained a human body capable of
practicing Dharma, for your practice to be effective you must first be
free of the sixteen unfavorable conditions:

Edited October 6, 2014 by ralis

[BaguaKicksAss]

Really?

And why FAIL COMPLETELY in achieving enlightenment / rainbow body so far all the thousands of devoted western outdoor students (who got "direct introduction" from their guru, donate regularly to their guru's orginisation, listen every week to the podcasts of their gurus and are in regular contact with their guru) who have & follow a teacher / official Dzogchen guru

in the past 30+ years that Dzogchen gurus are living in western countries,

while one american guy achieved rainbow body in a few years in a monastery?

 

Well, I'll tell you why the american guy succeeded in achieving rainbow body in a few years while being alive:

1) He got the right teaching.

2) He was able to successfully understand & apply it due to superior mental ability.

 

Now you can tell me, why all the thousands of western outdoor students who follow a teacher all of their life like asunthatneversets FAIL COMPLETELY in achieving enlightenment / rainbow body so far (and most likely will continue that trend).

 

I'm going to take a guess on this one, the one guy did more in his hast lifetime/s than the others and just needed that last little push.

[Wells]

.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[C T]

Really?

Yes, really.

[Wells]

.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

Before one of the western outdoor official Dzogchen guru students will achieve rainbow body,

one of Jackson Peterson's students will!

Priceless.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Re is a teacher necessary?

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/36190-understanding-buddhist-ethics-study-of-jamgon-kongtruls-treasury-of-knowledge/?p=584446

 

and

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/36190-understanding-buddhist-ethics-study-of-jamgon-kongtruls-treasury-of-knowledge/?p=584451

 

Some folks definitely seem to think so

 

(I do too, as I have seen what has happened to many folks who don't have one).

[doc benway]

 

My reason for challenging asunthatneversets narrative is due to the fact that he frequently posts cut/paste snippets that are largely out of context with no comments on his part and his responses are usually one liners. I have requested that persons posting here to write in a clear/succinct manner so that a discussion can ensue. However, most of the time there have been lengthy cut/paste of what Malcolm's opinions are.

I think that you are mistaken here - his posts are rarely, if ever, cut and paste.

I've never met him or messaged him privately but I'm fairly certain he speaks from his own understanding and view, unlike some others who like to cut and paste here.

His posts are generally quite clear and succinct, just like you ask, you just have a bone to pick with him for some reason.

You criticize him for not backing up his positions and yet you applaud zoom for just making shit up - curious.

 

 

There is a taboo disseminated by the Tibetan hierarchy that such teachings are only given by qualified guru's.

There are very good reasons for this.

 

The teachings are said to be protected by forces which are depicted in traditional Tibetan iconography and if one breaks the rules, then certain karmic problems will arise i.e, hell realms and so forth. For all the insight some Tibetan Lama's possess, there is a clinging to certain superstitious beliefs i.e, karma, hell realms and so forth. E.g. the text titled, 'The Torch of Certainty' is full of various beliefs and commands that are right out of the 'Middle Ages'. I still see Buddhists clinging to these superstitions and for the most part have jettisoned critical thinking and accepted such writings with complete acceptance as opposed to asking as to what the consequences such belief systems lead to.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/jul/01/lama-sex-abuse-sogyal-rinpoche-buddhist

 

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_2?rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3AJamgon+Kongtrul&page=2&sort=relevance&ie=UTF8&qid=1412536852

Many of the teachings are misunderstood if taken literally and out of context.

Also, the meaning and accessibility are quite different when approached from a Tibetan cultural background and a Western sensibility. With a little bit of skillful guidance and patient introspection, the apparently archaic terminology opens up and yields enormous insight and beauty. Clearly it's not your cup of tea, that's fine - let it go if it hasn't worked for you.

[BaguaKicksAss]

So in your opinion,

as ALL of the western outdoor official Dzogchen guru students FAIL in achieving rainbow body / enlightenment,

they ALL are lazy and undevoted students who don't train intensely?

 

That isn't what I said above at all??? Please re-read. I just said they probably made it further in past lifetimes, so were ready. Though tbh, it is just a guess .

 

Though yes, either slacking, or to busy working day jobs, or different priorities can definitely slow folks down. Also or don't go around telling everyone about it if/when they do reach higher levels. Many folks I have met who have made it somewhere most definitely do not make it public, and make sure their students don't either.

[Wells]

.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[katsura]

ZOOM: People achieve enlightenment with conventional forms of meditation and yoga often enough, and some even do it without going on retreat. I don't see why western practitioners of dzogchen wouldn't be among them.

 

Rainbow Body, however, doesn't sound like the kind of attainment even accessible to most monastics, least of all anyone expecting to lead a halfway normal life in between meditating. And all of this without the benefit of any direct oral instruction, just with a grab bag of cross referenced instructions from several Buddhist authors of varying experience. It's some off the reservation shit, man. Saving up to go live in Tibet would be way more plausible.

[asunthatneversets]

 

Obviously you have a wrong assumption there.

 

counter evidence:

 

Some teachers request that these things be broadcasted in order to incite faith, devotion etc., the fact that this event was announced and documented is not counter evidence of anything.