What is the difference between Dzogchen, Zen and Anapanasati?

[Wells]

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Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

In Dzogchen, the proof of enlightenment is the rainbow body achievement.

Not true at all.

[Wells]

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Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[Wells]

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Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[BaguaKicksAss]

You have a completely wrong impression of the tibetan monastery scene.

In fact the schools are pretty competitive and what news could give more prestige to a monastery than the newest success of a teacher / student going rainbow?

They all keep track of the numbers of students who went rainbow.

For example, Dudjom Lingpa helped 13 disciples of his achieving rainbow body during his lifetime.

 

Nah, I'm just a cranky westerner who gets annoyed when students even post my name on their facebook lol.

 

I would think, that being attached to something so specific and outward (rainbow body in this case), would be distracting away from the path. Attachment and all that. Yearning for, wanting and desiring said very specific outcome sort of thing.

 

I just hope folks haven't forgotten the whole just cultivate, for the sake of everyone, and not worry about how fancy, how many, how prestigious and etc.

[BaguaKicksAss]

As there are no reports of western Dzogchen students achieving rainbow body,

broadcasting those news on facebook to incite faith and devotion in you guys outside the monasteries,

seems dispensable.

 

Like anyone would beleive it....

[asunthatneversets]

As there are no reports of western Dzogchen students achieving rainbow body.

Overall you don't really seem to understand what rainbow body means or entails... So please continue running around looking for shrinking bodies and declaring ja lus hasn't occurred where you don't find any.

[Wells]

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Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[katsura]

 

This is a wild claim!

Please present your evidence that you are not just deluding yourself into a "wonderous" world-view to shield you from reality.

If by enlightenment you mean disintegrating into light after death, then yes, that would be a wild claim, wondrous too. If you mean attaining to perception of the emptiness underlying all manifest phenomena (y'know like how the Buddha defined it), then it's not quite so lofty. I don't know how you prove something like this, but this a decent podcast on the subject:

 

http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2007/03/bg-009-enlightened-teachers/

 

There are reports of "hidden yogins", laymen who achieve rainbow body and who worked all day long.

Lay how? Did they just work and sleep 16 hours a day and then spend the remaining 8 in intense meditation? Did they do this for decades at a time? Did they have the benefit of direct instruction at any point? BTW, this is all disregarding the various aspects of sila (purity of mind, health, and conduct.) You don't even want to do the ngondro.

 

The western students ven get "direct introduction" from a Dzogchen guru who lives in their country, dude!

So why do they all fail?

It's hard enough to even find out what dzogchen is without instruction and yet you feel qualified to judge the attainments of people you've never even met. I don't like to consider myself a defeatist in any sense, but it all just seems kind of silly to me.

[ralis]

 

Lay how? Did they just work and sleep 16 hours a day and then spend the remaining 8 in intense meditation? Did they do this for decades at a time? Did they have the benefit of direct instruction at any point? BTW, this is all disregarding the various aspects of sila (purity of mind, health, and conduct.) You don't even want to do the ngondro.

 

 

 

The foundational Dzogchen practice is 24/7 in all activities.

[katsura]

Then why are we talking about doing it outside of a monastery?

 

Edit: Oh no wait, I see. We're going to play PlayStation and do our dzogchen all day. Got it.

Edited October 6, 2014 by katsura

[ralis]

Then why are we talking about doing it outside of a monastery?

 

Not certain that I follow, but if you mean that only Tibetan monastics practice Dzogchen, that is an incorrect assumption. Furthermore, anyone can practice regardless of religious affiliation or culture.

[ralis]

@katsura,

 

Here is a post I made earlier that may be useful to you. The Tibetans made this stuff up, I certainly didn't.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/36522-what-is-the-difference-between-dzogchen-zen-and-anapanasati/page-2#entry584431

[ralis]

Then why are we talking about doing it outside of a monastery?

 

Edit: Oh no wait, I see. We're going to play PlayStation and do our dzogchen all day. Got it.

 

Of course the practice can be done while playing video games. Remember it is all phenomena/not phenomena or if you prefer, manifest/unmanifest and where one places attention. Eliminate the unnecessary variables...............

[katsura]

So what are you willing to sacrifice to achieve this?

[rex]

Has anyone noticed that the OP's question hasn't been answered and they haven't made any further contributions to this thread? Hardly surprising considering the usual descent into axe grinding and displays of personal agenda that bedevils/bemaras the subject on this board.

[katsura]

For what it's worth ZOOM did answer the OP, but I think the main problem is that few of us know what dzogchen is and the understanding of those that claim to is under heavy dispute.

Edited October 6, 2014 by katsura

[C T]

In Dzogchen, rainbow body (Tibetan: Jalü or Jalus (Wylie transliteration: 'ja' lus) is a level of realization. This may or may not be accompanied by the 'rainbow body phenomenon'. The rainbow body phenomenon has been noted for centuries, including the modern era.

 

The ultimate fruition of the thodgal practices is a body of pure light, called a rainbow body (Wylie 'ja' lus, pronounced Jalü.)^[5] If the four visions of thogal are not completed before death, then at death, from the point of view of an external observer, the following happens: the corpse does not start to decompose, but starts to shrink until it disappears. Usually fingernails, toenails and hair are left behind^[6] (see e.g. Togden Urgyen Tendzin, Ayu Khandro, Changchub Dorje.) The attainment of the rainbow body is typically accompanied by the appearance of lights and rainbows.^[5]

 

Some exceptional practitioners such as Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra are held to have realized a higher type of rainbow body without dying. Having completed the four visions before death, the individual focuses on the lights that surround the fingers. His or her physical body self-liberates into a nonmaterial body of light (a Sambhogakāya) with the ability to exist and abide wherever and whenever as pointed by one's compassion.^[7]

 

^{(from wikipedia)}

 

 

 

 

During the conflict [which brought great tragedy to Tibet], people of evil intent seized Tsewang Rigdzin and sentenced him to prison. As they escorted him there, he began chanting theVajra Guru mantra. In a manner reminiscent of the learned Indian Buddhist master Shantideva, Tsewang Rigdzin rose higher and higher into the air in plain view of everyone, finally dissolving into a mass of light, an event still remembered throughout eastern Tibet. This is reminiscent of the biographical accounts of the master Garab Dorje, Pang Mipham Gönpo, and others, who attained the most sublime siddhi through the path of natural great perfection and faded into space in a mass of light.

The above event, as described by Master Nyoshul Khenpo, occurred in 1958. Tsewang Rigzin practiced the Great Perfection teachings for 34 years prior to the final attainment.

 

 

Its folly to even argue with the illogicalities presented here by those who possess what they deem to be 'critical thinking'. Of benefit is to rely on authentic accounts, verified by lineage masters, and practice patiently & diligently without being distracted from the essential purpose of buddhadharma.

Edited October 6, 2014 by C T

[Wells]

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Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[C T]

http://www.sortlifeout.co.uk/buddha-rainbow.htm

 

So the westerner outdoor students are simply not diligent in their training efforts..!

As i have mentioned above, patience and diligence, and the absence of arrogance, would be key to mastery.

[Wells]

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Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[ralis]

Readers can ascertain for themselves whats genuine info and whats without merit. To counter-argue your mostly baseless assertions (well, more like taunts really) would be an unnecessary waste of time because you can only see what your karma allows you at this stage of your development. Same applies to me as well, and to everyone else i suppose.

 

To fall back on the karma excuse as if karma is an immutable law of the universe is just another unfounded belief system. Or, if you will, a useless mind game.

 

The belief in karma leads to the abuse of others and leads to authoritarian hierarchies i.e, reincarnate Lama's (Tulku's) that keep their position due to rebirth.

Edited October 6, 2014 by ralis

[C T]

To fall back on the karma excuse as if karma is an immutable law of the universe is just another unfounded belief system. Or, if you will, a useless mind game.

Your tendency for self-contradiction is quite amusing, Ralis.

[Brian]

I am curious, ZOOM...

 

Other than through the recent application of your vast intellect too great to be measured or even comprehended by mere mortals, what makes you think you have any real comprehension of Dzogchen?

 

As I recall, about this time last year, you were angrily proclaiming MoPai to be the ultimate and only legitimate energetic system, and demanding people shoot themselves with rifles on YouTube to prove you wrong. Shortly thereafter, you were an acolyte of Clyman the Great & Powerful, and demanding people travel to Chicago to be physically abused by that narcissist to prove you wrong. Now you are the world's leading authority on Dzogchen and demanding people post videos on Facebook of themselves going plaid (or whatever) to prove you wrong.

 

What makes you think anyone owes it to you to take you seriously about anything?

 

Just wondering...

[C T]

So none of the thousands of westerner students in the past 40 years had these "key" qualities?

I dont know, you tell me... you seem to have all the facts and figures sorted out neatly.