What is the difference between Dzogchen, Zen and Anapanasati?

[C T]

It strikes me as common among DIY guys who often tend to imagine they are building a custom sports car when all they are achieving is borrowing technology, even if fully understood, end-resulting in a drivable cart of some sort.

[doc benway]

Firstly, if everyone was enlightened from the start, why wouldn't an embryo/fetus already be a Buddha? Why would it then allow itself to develop and develop amnesia? If it was enlightened, why would it subject itself to another birth?

 

Basically the answer is karma. The embryo/fetus is already a Buddha, as are you.

But delusion and ignorance are present and awareness of the truth is absent.

There are lots of analogies in the teachings like the impoverished woman who uses a rock as a pillow and unbeknownst to her, the rock is actually a huge nugget of gold. Another is a roll of paper - if you store a sheet of paper rolled up for 10 years then unroll it, it goes right back to the way it was.

There is a karmic inertia that spans generations and influences our lives.

If that is too esoteric, think of things like genetics, pollution, and so on - these are all manifestations of karma.

 

If this is the case, I would deduce that from the start, we are not really enlightened. Instead, we are innocent - Just as what the famous 3-word poem describes as Mencius' ideology: "When a person is born, one is pure." But I do believe that everybody has the ability to become enlightened - however, it also depends on one's karma and karmic deeds.

 

I think that "enlightened" and "innocent" are not too dissimilar, though certainly not identical.

In the Dzogchen teachings, the nature of mind has three inseparable characteristics - space, awareness, and bliss.

It is primordially pure. Pure and innocent are not too far apart.

In the Dzogchen teachings, one does not become enlightened, this is what separates them from the sutra and tantra teachings.

It is not about doing, it is more about not doing and through letting everything go, being re-connected to the nature of mind.

 

 

Secondly, maybe I asked the wrong question but the whole thread seems to be steered towards a discussion of Dzogchen, instead of the differences between them. I'm a follower of Nan Huai-Jin's teachings (as in I follow his writings, especially on the Diamond Sutra, his other books and videos) and he doesn't talk too much about Dzogchen, but more of Zen and Tantric Buddhism. According to the sutras, there are many methods to become enlightened and I recall that the anapanasati was claimed to be one of the fastest methods to achieve enlightenment, on top of merit.

 

Here you've touched on the primary differences - Dzogchen is not about achieving anything. That is the primary difference.

Anapanasati is mindfulness of the breath and stefos described it quite well.

Sitting in Zen is similar to contemplation in Dzogchen. The main difference with Zen is in subtle aspects of the view.

 

 

Thirdly, isn't every side of a theory just a half-truth because it is polarized? Wouldn't it be the right way to achieve wisdom by ceasing polarities - aka Zen?

 

All theory is limited because it is a conceptual construct of dualistic mind. Dzogchen, anapanasati, and zen all transcend dualistic concepts. Thinking about them and theorizing brings you right back, however. Much better to simply practice, IMO.

 

 

I remember Siddharta Gautama had learnt under several yoga teachers, and achieved their highest attainments in an extremely short time. He was also a child prodigy who could walk at birth and was learnt in mathematics, philosophies, literature, etc before he left the palace. In the end, he claimed it was the Middle path that eventually worked, and that the way to it was the Eightfold Path and the Four Noble Truths. He also awakened to the concept of interdependent origination, implying that nature was "empty". Was exactly is this Middle Way? Is it merely a "meditation method"? Or is it a way of life incorporating right view, leading to a virtuous life?

 

The middle way refers to avoiding extremes such as beliefs in existence and non-existence. The nature is not only empty but also clear and radiant, full of love. The middle way is more a view than a method. The teachings refer to wisdom and method. Wisdom relates to view (emptiness, madhyamika) whereas the method refers more to things like compassion and meditation.

 

 

I'm really confused by the thread, btw.

 

It can really get confusing...

Try to simply enjoy the process.

[Creation]

Sitting in Zen is similar to contemplation in Dzogchen. The main difference with Zen is in subtle aspects of the view.

Steve, thanks for posting this thorough reply, and for being who you're being in this thread.

 

I just wanted to add that IMO the main difference between Zen and Dzogchen is not view but method. Dzogchen incorporates methods based on channels and drops and intermediate states coming from it's tantric pedigree.

[ralis]

I would add that Gangten Tulku who I previously mentioned has a group of students in Crestone Colorado attempting to achieve the rainbow body. Gangten requires a traditional three year retreat before such advanced teachings can be practiced. So far I have not heard that anyone had success. Norbu always stated that such practices are only a passport, but are limited.

[C T]

Gangten requires a traditional three year retreat before such advanced teachings can be practiced.

That is an excellent way to weed out the likes of those who share a similar sort of delusion as demonstrated by one or two posters here who somehow openly rate themselves intellectually superior. This is already a basic flaw in terms of keeping to the aspirations of Dzogchen praxis.

 

Setting such a criteria helps to preserve purity of lineage and in some way also ensure that the lineage is not tarnished by those with self-serving motives. Its not foolproof, but at least those who do not possess a good grounding in the preliminaries of the path are kept at bay.

 

Unfortunately, the very nature of Ati Yoga attracts people with rather ill-placed, selfish motives, and those who serve not on the side of propriety but their own misapprehended sense of self-aggrandisement and narcissistic inclinations, fortunately, will be appropriately challenged to align themselves by way of their conduct insofar as receiving authentic secret mantra transmissions are concerned.

[ralis]

Steve, thanks for posting this thorough reply, and for being who you're being in this thread.

 

I just wanted to add that IMO the main difference between Zen and Dzogchen is not view but method. Dzogchen incorporates methods based on channels and drops and intermediate states coming from it's tantric pedigree.

 

The foundational practice in Dzogchen has no visualizations, drops, or channels. Those practices are secondary, but are not a requirement for realizing the natural state. I have an excellent memory from my time with Norbu back in the 80's and he made those points very clear. The rainbow body practices are in addition to the primordial state teachings.

Edited October 7, 2014 by ralis

[C T]

It helps to first understand and then distinguish between trekcho & togal when attempting to explain what Dzogchen is.

 

Asserting that some practices are secondary when in fact they are not is like saying a bird's left wing is less important than its right one.

[ralis]

I am wondering given the nature of the posts from several Buddhist who claim to have taken teachings from Norbu, as to the reason for positing vitriolic filled posts. Vajraji was the same way. I think it is that some of Norbu's students have not understood the teachings. During one of Norbu's retreats he was defending himself from the criticism coming from the monastics and other naysayers. The primordial state is so damn simple, most entirely miss the point. Furthermore, transmission can come in ways least expected.

Edited October 7, 2014 by ralis

[ralis]

It helps to first understand and then distinguish between trekcho & togal when attempting to explain what Dzogchen is.

 

Asserting that some practices are secondary when in fact they are not is like saying a bird's left wing is less important than its right one.

 

I don't agree with your assertion. I almost have a photographic memory and can see and hear what Norbu said in regard to the primordial state and secondary practices. Those memories date back to 1989. What he did was break down the primordial practice into thogal and trekcho for those who don't get it any other way. There is no separation whatsoever.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I'm curious now, and since this thread has already run quite off course lol, what is the difference between Dzogchen and Tantra teachings? I have heard both of those words used quite a bit in the few things I have learned.... it's a bit confusing!

[ralis]

I'm curious now, and since this thread has already run quite off course lol, what is the difference between Dzogchen and Tantra teachings? I have heard both of those words used quite a bit in the few things I have learned.... it's a bit confusing!

 

Simply put, tantra is about transformation of various emotions to their opposite. Dozogchen transforms nothing, but sees all thought, emotion, unpleasant events and so forth as part of the natural state or pure energy.

[C T]

I don't agree with your assertion. I almost have a photographic memory and can see and hear what Norbu said in regard to the primordial state and secondary practices. Those memories date back to 1989. What he did was break down the primordial practice into thogal and trekcho for those who don't get it any other way. There is no separation whatsoever.

One without the other can be called many names, but not Dzogchen.

 

However, you are right, ultimately, there is no separation, but simply recognizing/glimpsing its nature is not the same as having a developed, stable, robust, and all-pervasive awareness of the nature of mind.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Everyone go do Tonglen for an hour, then come back and post...

[ralis]

@BKA,

 

Here is a little book that Norbu wrote that distinguishes between Dzogchen and Zen.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Dzog-Chen-Zen-Namkhai-Norbu/dp/0931892082/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1412697147&sr=1-1&keywords=dzogchen+and+zen

[ralis]

Everyone go do Tonglen for an hour, then come back and post...

 

Tonglen can make one physically sick. I had to stop doing it back in the 80's because of that. Mainly because I feel far too much of the pain in the world right in my heart. Ken Wilbur discusses such practices in the book 'Spiritual Choices' and the dangers of. These practices are not to be taken lightly!

[BaguaKicksAss]

Simply put, tantra is about transformation of various emotions to their opposite. Dozogchen transforms nothing, but sees all thought, emotion, unpleasant events and so forth as part of the natural state or pure energy.

 

What would be an example of a tantric practice which I may have heard about or run into?

 

Also is there a lot of overlap with Dzogchen and Tantra practices?

[ralis]

What would be an example of a tantric practice which I may have heard about or run into?

 

Also is there a lot of overlap with Dzogchen and Tantra practices?

 

According to what I remember, all the tantras contain the primordial state i.e, Dzogchen, but the trick is to recognize it. Actually all phenomena are the primordial state which is termed the great perfection. The problem is one of how one relates to the inner judgment of phenomena, acceptance/aversion and so forth. Language constructs are problematic as to how one relates. Humans are far too serious as you can see by my joker avatar.

[ralis]

@BKA,

 

Here is one thought for your consideration. Norbu said this in a retreat that I attended in 1989. "What is the difference between a statue of a Buddha and an ash tray?"

[Creation]

OK, now that there is some on topic discussion, here is what I wanted to say originally.

 

It addresses the difference between Tantra, Zen, and Dzogchen from a historical perspective.

 

In early Mahayana, it was taught that Buddhahood took an absolutely enormous amount of time to reach. There were two streams of practice that developed that claimed to be able to shorten this.

 

One was the esoteric path: use of dharanis and mantras, visualizing deities, and performing rituals that would connect one to enlightened beings to receive their blessings. This was used both to develop siddhis to use for the benefit of all beings, and to help on the path to liberation, but at first it was seen as an adjunct to the Mahayana path. Eventually, it developed into Vajrayana, which claimed to be an independent vehicle to enlightenment that actualized the body, speech and mind of a Buddha within the practitioner using the same types of techniques (mantras, visualizations of deities, rituals) formerly just used to connect to external enlightened beings. And the Higher Tantras incorporated even more methods like utilizing the subtle body (channels, chakras, and drops) and intermediate states (dreams, dying, afterdeath state, etc.).

 

The other stream built on the idea of Buddha nature, i.e. that enlightenment already exists as a potentiality in all beings, and developed meditative techniques to directly access one's enlightened state of consciousness. Historically, the first example of this was Chan. "A special transmission outside the scriptures" is how they put it. But tantric practitioners in India in Tibet also created systems to do the same thing. The original thing called Dzogchen was one such system (now called Dzogchen Semde, the Mind Series of Dzogchen), as well Matripa's teachings in India and Gamopa's "Sutra Mahamudra" in Tibet. In these contexts, Vajrayana and the direct pointing out methods were practiced side by side. The latter view the path as uncovering your Buddha nature, and don't use any "esoteric" methods except the pointing out instructions of a qualified guru. In the former, there are methods for using chakras and channels, intermediate states, sex, etc., but they are based on the idea of creating the enlightened state within yourself, rather uncovering it. So these can be complementary, and in the Kagyu school, for example, doing these two types of practice side by side is still how it is done.

 

But what Dzogchen developed into is a way to use Vajrayana-like methods involving channels and drops, intermediate states, etc. but done from the perspective of already having enlightenment and just needing to discover it. That's why it's considered to be the highest path: it fully combines both streams of Mahayana which give a "fast path".

Edited October 7, 2014 by Creation

[BaguaKicksAss]

OK, now that there is some on topic discussion, here is what I wanted to say originally.

 

It addresses the difference between Tantra, Zen, and Dzogchen from a historical perspective.

 

In early Mahayana, it was taught that Buddhahood took an absolutely enormous amount of time to reach. There were two streams of practice that developed that claimed to be able to shorten this.

 

One was the esoteric path: use of dharanis and mantras, visualizing deities, and performing rituals that would connect one to enlightened beings to receive their blessings. This was used both to develop siddhis to use for the benefit of all beings, and to help on the path to liberation, but at first it was seen as an adjunct to the Mahayana path. Eventually, it developed into Vajrayana, which claimed to be an independent vehicle to enlightenment that actualized the body, speech and mind of a Buddha within the practitioner using the same types of techniques (mantras, visualizations of deities, rituals) formerly just used to connect to external enlightened beings. And the Higher Tantras incorporated even more methods like utilizing the subtle body (channels, chakras, and drops) and intermediate states (dreams, dying, afterdeath state, etc.).

 

The other stream built on the idea of Buddha nature, i.e. that enlighenment already exists as a potentiality in all beings, and developed meditative techniques to directly access one's enlighetend state of consciousness. Historically, the first example of this was Chan. "A special transmission outside the scriptures" is how they put it. But tantric practitioners in India in Tibet also created systems to do the same thing. The original thing called Dzogchen was one such system (now called Dzogchen Semde, the Mind Series of Dzogchen), as well Matripa's teachings in India and Gamopa's "Sutra Mahamudra" in Tibet. In these contexts, Vajrayana and the direct pointing out methods were practiced side by side. The former view the path as uncovering your Buddha nature, and don't use any "esoteric" methods except the pointing out instructions of a qualified guru. In the latter, there are methods for using chakras and channels, intermediate states, sexuality, etc., but they are based on the idea of creating the enlightened state within yourself, rather uncovering it. So these can be complementary, and in the Kagyu school, for example, doing these two types of practice side by side is still how it is done.

 

But what Dzogchen developed into is a way to use Vajrayana-like methods involving channels and drops, intermediate states, etc. but done from the perspective of already having enlightenment and just needing to discover it. That's why it's considered to be the highest path: it fully combines both streams Mahayana claiming to be the "fast path".

 

Thank you very much for the very clear, concise and makes perfect sense post!

[C T]

The answer is that my goals developed further with my understanding! Your obvious interpretation however, that my opinions on diverse systems changed in the sense that I jumped from one system to the next, first adoring one then condemning it, is certainly wrong!

I still think that Mo Pai is one of the few legitimate schools on the planet, but as I came to the conclusion, that no westerner will ever get knowledge in that system beyond Mo Pai Level 2b, a level which would not satisfy me, I decided to research other promising systems.

I still have the same positive opinion of Clyman, his healing ability and his system as I had back then, but my goals grew beyond getting "the Jing" or Taoist Immortality towards a state of being, which is absolutely permanent: Buddhahood. And even the Buddhahoods achieved in most buddhist path's as for example in Tantra by achieving illusory body are most likely not more permanent than yang shen immortality in Taoism.

In Taoism is the concept of "celestial immortality" which includes "taking the matter of your body with you" by transforming it into light, but I was unable to find sufficient data of legit systems which could accomplish this goal.

According to the hints of in Waysun Liao's books I concluded that "celestial immortality" is achieved over what Waysun Liao described as "TE", the "innermost being". However, I doubt that Waysun Liao ever taught any westerner how to access "TE" in case he knows it at all.

When I found out about the "rainbow body" phenomenon and the "clear light" energy in Dzogchen, it became clear to me that "rainbow body" and "celestial immortality" are the same phenomenon, as are "TE" and the "mother clear light" in Dzogchen.

So I worked my way so far through 50+ books, discussed intensely with several persons who belong to the the first ones taught in the west by diverse Dzogchen guru's in the 70's and 80's

and tried to analyse and evaluate all the data I could get my hands on, with the goal to understand how Dzogchen works.

What I will tell you is that my results in addition with my personal experience so far suggest that the intellectuals who try to abstract the Dzogchen system as they try to abstract everything else in their life and who feel attracted to Buddhism and Dzogchen due to this misinterpretation of it, would be well advised to get a more grounded and concrete outlook if they intent to get to the bottom of it instead of getting lost with their heads in the clouds.

 

 

In fact the intelligent people in this forum take me and my insights very seriously.

 

Having achieved tangiable results in form of macro PK on an Exorcist-like level on several occasions with witnesses due to intuitive insight into how chi works and can be manipulated in addition to relentless intense training and the ability to focus far beyond average when properly motivated put me in a category worlds beyond 99.99% of all the people here in this forum.

 

Not to mention my scientifically established "far above average intelligence" in the areas "logical deduction", "practical /descriptive reasoning", "verbal reasoning", "orthography", "spatial perception/imagination", "formal conception" and "mechanical-technical conception".

It seems that your buddy Ralis has implied that you have wasted much time and effort for nought, looking for the elephant in all the wrong places when all you have to do is follow his thinking that... "The primordial state is so damn simple, most entirely miss the point. Furthermore, transmission can come in ways least expected." (Ralis - post 144)

 

You might as well sit back with a cup of tea, relax and forget about all the research you have done and/or planning to do henceforth. When you least expect it, the transmission just pops, and voila!! there you are, a fully accomplished dzogchenpa! No need for any work, its that easy (according to your buddy). His line of thinking implied that you are overdoing things despite your best intentions. I'd imagine that instead of wasting more precious time, you should now put aside those 50+ Dzogchen-related books (they are unnecessary, sorry you wasted all the money) and basically start grokking the easy-peasy simplicity in obtaining your version of the rainbow body.

[ralis]

It seems that your buddy Ralis has implied that you have wasted much time and effort for nought, looking for the elephant in all the wrong places when all you have to do is follow his thinking that... "The primordial state is so damn simple, most entirely miss the point. Furthermore, transmission can come in ways least expected." (Ralis - post 144)

 

You might as well sit back with a cup of tea, relax and forget about all the research you have done and/or planning to do henceforth. When you least expect it, the transmission just pops, and voila!! there you are, a fully accomplished dzogchenpa! No need for any work, its that easy (according to your buddy). His line of thinking implied that you are overdoing things despite your best intentions. I'd imagine that instead of wasting more precious time, you should now put aside those 50+ Dzogchen-related books (they are unnecessary, sorry you wasted all the money) and basically start grokking the easy-peasy simplicity in obtaining your version of the rainbow body.

 

Please retract that piece of revisionism. Talk about twisting what I write. My post was for the many Buddhist practitioners that post on here that don't seem to have a clue as to what Dzogchen is about. Sure, they make take retreats with Norbu or whoever, but the proof is in how they communicate. Creation made a very clear post today as opposed to the vitriol that certain banned Buddhists have consistently engaged in. BTW, free speech doesn't mean that one can say anything without limit.

Edited October 7, 2014 by ralis

[C T]

Please retract that piece of revisionism. Talk about twisting what I write. My post was for the many Buddhist practitioners that post on here that don't seem to have a clue as to what Dzogchen is about. Sure, they make take retreats with Norbu or whoever, but the proof is in how they communicate. Creation made a very clear post today as opposed to the vitriol that certain banned Buddhists have consistently engaged in. BTW, free speech doesn't mean that one can say anything without limit.

You wouldn't be so uppity if Creation had taken upon himself to correct all the misinformation re: Dzogchen presented in this thread by the likes of you & Mr Zoom.

[C T]

You are aware that you carry on with asunthatneversets' bickering instead of offering useful on-topic input?

May i ask what useful, on-topic input you have contributed thus far?

[allinone]

lucid dream, you still have your own body but its lucid.

 

Same fundamental thing is also when you attain rainbowbody your body becomes lucid.

Edited October 8, 2014 by allinone