Calling all magickians.....

[wallum]

Hi all, I have a query regarding the foundations of magickal practice.

 

Let me start by briefly describing my experience. I have been cultivating 'magick' (or whatever one wishes to call it) for well over a decade, and have had a reasonable amount of success. Definitely enough for me to have to take it seriously and believe that it is 'real' and not mere coincidence or imagination (imagination in the conventional sense. I am aware that Imagination is something different).

 

I have done a small amount of mediation (VERY small), and a reasonable amount of visualization, and that is where my query lies. Upon reading certain tomes devoted to the cultivation of these kinds of practices, they highlight the importance of mediation and visualization. In comparison to the degree that seems to be expected by these books, my experience seems to be paltry. I am curious as to how much time you have all dedicated to these foundational skills?

 

Upon reading Crowley's Liber ABA, I find

 

 

Suppose you have chosen a white cross. It will move its bar up and

down, elongate the bar, turn the bar oblique, get its arms unequal, turn

upside down, grow branches, get a crack around it or a figure upon it,

change its shape altogether like an Amœba, change its size and distance

as a whole, change the degree of its illumination, and at the same time

change its colour. It will get splotchy and blotchy, row patterns, rise,

fall, twist and turn; clouds will pass over its face. There is no conceivable

change of which it is incapable. Not to mention its total disappearance,

and replacement by something altogether different!

 

 

This still happens to me, for the most part. As long I don't try too hard, and allow it to emerge as a dream I can visualize more complex scenarios, but when aiming for the simple, such as a yellow circle, I get all kinds of interference.

 

As for mediation, well, I'm a bit embarrassed to discuss my attempts.

 

So, to summarize, how much time have you dedicated to basic skills such as mediation and visualization? Have you noticed a large improvement in your 'magickal' abilities as a result? And any other advice or discussion on this topic is also appreciated.

 

Peace

[BaguaKicksAss]

I don't use visualization much in magic; I personally go with physical items instead (herbs, real offerings, real statues and the like). Mediation on the otherhand, well that tends to increase magic oh only about 1000-fold. Really.

 

Basically to do magic at a decent level, one first has to get rid of the "self" or "I". The self and I really are only mediocre at best at magic, in comparison with getting past that and working in that particular state. I mean at least during the actual working (if not 24X7 in a sense). Also if you work with any entities at all and actually want to see or "see" and hear or "hear" them, meditation is necessary for improving psychic ability.

 

Even 1/2 an hour per day can make a vast difference. Yes, daily is very important. Oh hell even 15 minutes will make a difference .

 

Though I do know some magicians who don't meditate at all and still get results; I do feel they could accomplish quite a bit more if they added meditation to their practice.

 

You mentioned meditation is difficult... yes... even more so than starting an exercise program . Though if practiced daily, it only takes a few months to notice some decent differences in your ability to meditate and your magic.

[wallum]

Wow. 1000 fold, hey? I don't know what I would do with that much magic

[BaguaKicksAss]

Wow. 1000 fold, hey? I don't know what I would do with that much magic

 

Lots of forethought and careful what you wish for in there lolololol. Not like every bit works that well, but some do, and yikes!

 

Is something interesting to contemplate though; what you really want with it. Some wise folks say half of manifesting magic is just knowing what you really want (on a deeper level).

[wallum]

Yeah, I went through a stage where I didn't do any for quite a while because there was nothing I really wanted. Now I mainly want to explore the astral realm, and that kind of thing. I've done a bit of lucid dreaming, but it seems different somehow to the astral realm. I know there's a bit of debate regarding whether they're the same thing or not, but I spontaneously left my body at about 5 and that felt different to any lucid dreaming I've done so far.

 

Oh yes, I try very hard to be careful what I wish for. I'd rather not make those mistakes again. Although I have learnt and grown from them (I hope!).

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Upon reading Crowley's Liber ABA . . .

 

My, my, . . .what did magicians do before they had Aleister Crowley to tell them all about yoga, and where would Crowley be if he hadn't climbed mountains with Oscar Eckenstein? Crowley himself practiced magic before he met Eckenstein, by his own account successfully, but he just didn't have the power of concentration that Eckenstein chided him about it. Indeed his evocation of the goetic spirit that he thought 'spirited' Allen Bennett off to the sunny climb of then Ceylon to 'cure' his asthma, was before he started such practices. What did he do back then? You don't suppose he practiced Golden Dawn style magic do you?

 

On a serious note, listen carefully to anything BaquaKicksAss says about magic, I would say it is worth its weight in gold, but unfortunately that wouldn't be saying much, so just treasure her insights, even if they don't weigh very much.

 

Right now I don't have much time to say more, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to make Crowley the subject of my own amusement and to praise the insight of an accomplished practitioner. I hope to have more time in a few weeks, and can weigh in more at that time, though I will for now say that I did an awful lot of practice of the Middle Pillar exercise based on Israel Regardie's The Art of True Healing in my late teens in the late Sixties. It was very useful, but after that I went very far afield.

 

More later, I hope.

 

 

 

Edit: Changed it to if in "even if they don't weigh much".

Edited October 6, 2014 by Zhongyongdaoist

[wallum]

@BaguaKicksAss

Thank you for your advice, I am determined to meditate for a minimum of 15 per day. Like I said, I have done my share of visualisation type meditations. However, regarding the non-thought meditation, I have always put it off, as I found it boring, I'm ashamed to say. I have found recently that if I relax completely first it is less boring, even enjoyable, but I tend to relax too much and float on the edge of sleep, which isn't good for my focus.

 

@Zhongyongdaoist

Thank you also for your advice. I am here to learn from those more experienced than me (and also those who are not ). This is actually the first book of Crowley's that I have begun reading (Liber ABA), and I quoted it because I have not yet come across anyone who describes attempting to visualize, like he does. Usually they just say it is hard, and that most people cannot picture things at first etc.

 

I have spent many years in various forests, practicing, but have not read much literature yet. I was drawn to this site because I have decided to spend the next few years familiarizing myself with a range of literature, and the discussions between some of the members of this forum (you two included) proved very interesting and appear to arise from a background wealth of knowledge on a range of literature.

 

Nice to meet you

 

Peace

[Gemstone]

http://www.amazon.com/Concentration-A-Guide-Mental-Mastery/dp/0879800232/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1412598334&sr=8-5&keywords=concentration

 

A great manual that will lead to stable meditation/visualization!

[BaguaKicksAss]

My, my, . . .what did magicians do before they had Aleister Crowley to tell them all about yoga, and where would Crowley be if he hadn't climbed mountains with Oscar Eckenstein? Crowley himself practiced magic before he met Eckenstein, by his own account successfully, but he just didn't have the power of concentration that Eckenstein chided him about it. Indeed his evocation of the goetic spirit that he thought 'spirited' Allen Bennett off to the sunny climb of then Ceylon to 'cure' his asthma, was before he started such practices. What did he do back then? You don't suppose he practiced Golden Dawn style magic do you?

 

On a serious note, listen carefully to anything BaquaKicksAss says about magic, I would say it is worth its weight in gold, but unfortunately that wouldn't be saying much, so just treasure her insights, even it they don't weigh very much.

 

Right now I don't have much time to say more, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to make Crowley the subject of my own amusement and to praise the insight of an accomplished practitioner. I hope to have more time in a few weeks, and can weigh in more at that time, though I will for now say that I did an awful lot of practice of the Middle Pillar exercise based on Israel Regardie's The Art of True Healing in my late teens in the late Sixties. It was very useful, but after that I went very far afield.

 

More later, I hope.

 

That's quite high prise considering gold is at $1200 per ounce right now! I shouldn't have looked, as a jeweler the fact it is rising again is annoying. Was half that only 8 years ago *sigh*.

 

On a side note, I think I'm doing really well; no disparaging GD/Crowley comments in a full month! (I'm trying to cut back) All the local magicKians here are Thelemites or GDers.... <to anyone else reading who doesn't know me, I wandered off the ceremonial magick path ages back, and now wonder what everyone likes about it so much lol>

 

So what do you think of the middle pillar.... considering your experience with Taoist and other Eastern energy stuff now? Useful? Messes magicians up? Clears stuff out for them?

[BaguaKicksAss]

@BaguaKicksAss

Thank you for your advice, I am determined to meditate for a minimum of 15 per day. Like I said, I have done my share of visualisation type meditations. However, regarding the non-thought meditation, I have always put it off, as I found it boring, I'm ashamed to say. I have found recently that if I relax completely first it is less boring, even enjoyable, but I tend to relax too much and float on the edge of sleep, which isn't good for my focus.

 

Yep meditation is boring, at first. But then after a bit... you will be quite amazed . If you find yourself dropping off to sleep (yeah I get that too), you can try with eyes open, or half open. The more you open your eyes and look straight ahead the more awake and lucid you become. Also focusing on clarity of mind, instead of floating off, tends to help a lot. I know this sounds like it would be counter productive, but no not really. Also there is a secret, even high level monks I have met, still get thoughts! They just get a lot less than the rest of us lol. One trick is to not push or force the thoughts away, but more like just to not follow them, just let them drift away and dissolve.

 

Which specific magic path are you on? Doing some preparatory work before the meditation can help too. I'm going to guess by your post OTO or GD?

 

@Zhongyongdaoist

Thank you also for your advice. I am here to learn from those more experienced than me (and also those who are not ). This is actually the first book of Crowley's that I have begun reading (Liber ABA), and I quoted it because I have not yet come across anyone who describes attempting to visualize, like he does. Usually they just say it is hard, and that most people cannot picture things at first etc.

 

First Crowley book? Oh good, there is still time/hope! (sorry, I tried, there goes my 1 month lololool) Fortunately you've been at it long enough to take what anyone says with a grain of salt.

 

I personally don't find the visualization type as useful...... but then again more recently some of those Buddhist ones are pretty good! They bring taking on God forms to a whole new level. Visualizing difficult? Surely you jest? Have you never fantasized about someone you wish to have sex with? Never? (blame my teacher, is his example lol) How about daydreaming? Or imagining terrible things happening to that annoying co-worker?

 

I have spent many years in various forests, practicing, but have not read much literature yet. I was drawn to this site because I have decided to spend the next few years familiarizing myself with a range of literature, and the discussions between some of the members of this forum (you two included) proved very interesting and appear to arise from a background wealth of knowledge on a range of literature.

 

Nice to meet you

 

Peace

 

Actually, not having read literature is a really good thing, in my opinion. Though many would disagree with me; mostly authors and internet magicians . Find an in person teacher. What is in the books and online is just a very watered down, left most stuff out, just in there to sell books, stuff. Do you really think the stuff that works can be found in a $20 paperback at any bookstore? The carefully handed down, survived being burned alive, and with many vows to not share it, stuff really gets written about? Well also feedback is important. Magicians have a difficult time being able to tell when your own head is planted firmly up our behind, or we are way off the mark... A teacher can also tell our progress, and how to fix anything which goes wrong.

 

Though Agrippa would be one exception to this . The best version is on the esotericarchives site, for free even.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

So what do you think of the middle pillar.... considering your experience with Taoist and other Eastern energy stuff now? Useful? Messes magicians up? Clears stuff out for them?

 

As I said, I found it very useful. Modern magicians end up messed up more by the flaws in the new-magical worldview and their own egos. Recently I have been reviewing the practice and will have more to say about it later, but as I said I am short of time. I have spent too much time in the past few days posting on Confucianism and can't put too much time in here now.

 

Regarding training visualization etc., here is an approach to training the 'internal senses' that influenced me circa 1980:

 

Tao Bums thread on Win Wenger started by thelearner

 

Since 1980 I have taught people how to visualize by teaching them to draw using Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain by Betty Edwards. This manages to kill several little birdies with one stone, visualization, concentration, meditation and contemplation. My idea of teaching through art goes back to the early 70s when I was working in the idea of astrological images as part of a system of meditation/self-awareness, but a good book on drawing did not really exist until Edwards book appeared.

 

This is all I have time for now.

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi BaguaKicksAss,

 

That's interesting what you said about mediating being a particularly powerful technique.

 

I know your opinion on personal instruction, the best stuff not being in books etc.

 

But nevertheless, what book or website etc. would be most worth wile for getting familiar with mediating, in your opinion?

Edited October 6, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[wallum]

Thank you, Gemstone, I'll be sure to have a look.

 

 

Which specific magic path are you on? Doing some preparatory work before the meditation can help too. I'm going to guess by your post OTO or GD?

 

 

I'm kind of on my own path. I don't like rituals, or external tools. I communicate with my 'higher self'/'HGA'/'spirit guide' (I think people have different names for these entities/experiences) and move forward at whatever pace is appropriate for me at the time. I have done a lot of work in nature, and with manifestation, divination, telepathy etc

 

 

Visualizing difficult? Surely you jest? Have you never fantasized about someone you wish to have sex with? Never? (blame my teacher, is his example lol) How about daydreaming? Or imagining terrible things happening to that annoying co-worker?

 

As long I don't try too hard, and allow it to emerge as a dream I can visualize more complex scenarios, but when aiming for the simple, such as a yellow circle, I get all kinds of interference.

 

If I 'daydream'-visualize its fine. But if I want to hold a simple shape in my mind, it goes crazy

 

p.s. I'm an artist, so my favourite thing to do when I was a child was 'lose' myself in my drawing, that felt like meditation.

 

I will read through the Win Wenger posts when I have more time, hopefully later today.

 

 

 

If learning to meditate properly will have a big impact on my life and my path, I am determined to do so. I am curious as to all your experiences with this......

[Unseen_Abilities]

You could lose yourself in the drawing of a sigil for better meditation/visualisation skills, or use eft and/or affirmations to help you out with it.

 

Stripping magic(k) right down and demystifying it was the greatest thing for me - I'm having huge success doing it the way I am now.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Unseen_Abilities

[Zhongyongdaoist]

p.s. I'm an artist, so my favourite thing to do when I was a child was 'lose' myself in my drawing, that felt like meditation.

 

This effect is a main part of why I teach people magic through drawing and all of magic stems from a generalization and extension of this effect. What is a drawing, it is a representation of something. What is a talisman or a symbol, it is a representation of something. What is a ritual, it is a representation of something. And what is the world in which we live, move and have our being, in the Platonic perspective on which such magic as that of Agrippa is based, it is a representation of of "the mind of God", a phrase which I use hesitantly, but is more likely to convey the idea then more technical formulations. To connect with the creative power of art, is to connect with the creative power of the universe.

 

If I 'daydream'-visualize its fine. But if I want to hold a simple shape in my mind, it goes crazy

 

This level of concentration is not necessary to practice magic, but you already know that. You can probably already do most of Winger talks about, you just need to extend it.

 

However it is useful to get better control of the mind. The brain doesn't like concentrating on one thing which is why your simple shapes go "wacko", it just takes time to learn that control and for you there may be better methods to achieve it, too many for me to give details now.

 

Unseen_Abilities posted this while I was working on the above:

 

You could lose yourself in the drawing of a sigil for better meditation/visualisation skills, or use eft and/or affirmations to help you out with it.

 

Stripping magic(k) right down and demystifying it was the greatest thing for me - I'm having huge success doing it the way I am now.

 

A sigil is just a representation of something, Agrippa talks about them. They entered modern magic as a separate technique largely through the work of Austin Osman Spare as popularized by Kenneth Grant and others.

 

Demystifying magic is great and stripping it down is good as long as one really knows what can be stripped away and what should be left in place. Just how simple it can be can be seen from this from Agrippa's Third book of Occult Philosophy:

 

I have seen, and known some [i.e. some person, see below] writing on virgin parchment the name and seal of some spirit in the hour of the Moon: which when afterward he gave to be devoured by a water-frog, and had muttered over some verse, the frog being let go into the water, rains, and shours [showers] presently followed. I saw also the same man inscribing the name of another Spirit with the seal thereof in the hour of Mars, which was given to a Crow, who being let go, after a verse muttered over, presently there followed from that corner of the heaven, whither he flew, lightnings, shakings, and horrible thunders, with thick clouds...' (Book Three, Chapter XXIV ,This from Peterson's Twilight Grotto, but can also be found in Tyson's regrettable version on p. 532)

 

I quote this because there is a misapprehension among modern magicians that older magic is full of long winded and unnecessary rituals. While holding fast to a single technique many babies have been tossed out with the bath water.

[Michael Sternbach]

I quote this because there is a misapprehension among modern magicians that older magic is full of long winded and unnecessary rituals. While holding fast to a single technique many babies have been tossed out with the bath water.

 

I agree with you, all in all. Personally, I like simple and practical, but let's not neglect that a lot of magic works via the unconscious - and the latter likes a little "show" in the way of rites and tangible symbols. The extra time and effort required may well be worth while.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[BaguaKicksAss]

Hi BaguaKicksAss,

 

That's interesting what you said about mediating being a particularly powerful technique.

 

I know your opinion on personal instruction, the best stuff not being in books etc.

 

But nevertheless, what book or website etc. would be most worth wile for getting familiar with mediating, in your opinion?

 

Trying to think of a good book on it... it's been awhile since I read anything on mediation. Or I mean been awhile which I have read anything on meditation which wasn't from a Dzogchen Buddhist perspective; been having some great success with their meditation methods, but then again, it is mostly in person teachings.

 

OK I remember now, and everyone is going to laugh at me... but go easy on me, I was 18 at the time, and this was about 25 or so years ago lol, but I got a lot out of the Ram Das books . I have no idea if I would recommend them now or not, as I would have to re-read them to see. They were fun back in the day though.

 

But basically, just let those thoughts drift off, gently push them aside.... At first you will be lucky to get a split second of no thoughts, which is fine, it's a pretty awesome second, then as you practice, it gets longer.

 

I thought of one book, but not the type of magic/meditation you are likely thinking of, but works quite well http://www.amazon.com/Enlightened-Courage-Explanation-Seven-Point-Training-ebook/dp/B001W03JBE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1412654622&sr=8-2&keywords=dilgo+khyentse

[wallum]

However it is useful to get better control of the mind. The brain doesn't like concentrating on one thing which is why your simple shapes go "wacko", it just takes time to learn that control and for you there may be better methods to achieve it, too many for me to give details now.

 

 

Thank you for you interest. I patiently await any further information you may impart regarding the above-mentioned methods (even just some keywords to google if you're continually pressed for time).

 

 

Thank you all for responding!! I have a lot of food for thought now

[Michael Sternbach]

Trying to think of a good book on it... it's been awhile since I read anything on mediation. Or I mean been awhile which I have read anything on meditation which wasn't from a Dzogchen Buddhist perspective; been having some great success with their meditation methods, but then again, it is mostly in person teachings.

 

OK I remember now, and everyone is going to laugh at me... but go easy on me, I was 18 at the time, and this was about 25 or so years ago lol, but I got a lot out of the Ram Das books . I have no idea if I would recommend them now or not, as I would have to re-read them to see. They were fun back in the day though.

 

But basically, just let those thoughts drift off, gently push them aside.... At first you will be lucky to get a split second of no thoughts, which is fine, it's a pretty awesome second, then as you practice, it gets longer.

 

I thought of one book, but not the type of magic/meditation you are likely thinking of, but works quite well http://www.amazon.com/Enlightened-Courage-Explanation-Seven-Point-Training-ebook/dp/B001W03JBE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1412654622&sr=8-2&keywords=dilgo+khyentse

 

I'm not sure if I'm getting you right about mediating, BKA. You said that mediating would greatly amplify one's magic. Okay, I set out to do a magic(k)al operation; a couple of possibilities, here. But where would the mediating part come in? Yes, it's quite effective to do your thing and then to let it go and not to think about it any more for the time being. But I doubt that this is what you are referring to.

 

Perhaps you simply meant that people who are good at mediating are more powerful magicians...

 

The book looks interesting - thanks. Good that there is a paperback edition available, too, as I haven't manifested a kindle yet.

[wallum]

Perhaps you simply meant that people who are good at mediating are more powerful magicians...

I'm assuming that meditating, or achieving the meditative state regularly, enhances ones overall magick. I think that's what BKA means, and ZDD implied also.

 

 

Whilst I've achieved the meditative state (when painting or walking through the forest), a strange place where focus transforms ones experience and all there is is NOW, I have been unsuccessful at achieving a state where I think no-thoughts, and that is what I would love to know, if that is a valid pursuit, and if it will assist my path.......

[BaguaKicksAss]

I mean meditating as a practice, each day, for at least 15 minutes . This greatly enhances your magical practice, as well as psychic abilities and so forth. Of course it can also help to meditate before each magical working, but that wasn't what I was referring to here...

[wallum]

How long do you meditate each day, BKA?

 

How long does it take before you have (mainly) no-thoughts?

[BaguaKicksAss]

How long do you meditate each day, BKA?

 

How long does it take before you have (mainly) no-thoughts?

 

Specifically formal meditation focusing on no thoughts? Not very long . 15 minutes twice per day. I had slacked with my meditation doing it only off and on for a few years, so getting back up to speed. The no thoughts thing comes and goes, it is not like I get an entire 15 or 30 of no thoughts, more like less thoughts, and/or they just dissolve as they come. Like I posted earlier in this thread, even the monk folks still get some thoughts come up during meditation! Though there are minutes without thoughts. Also it ends up that less of those pesky things come up throughout the day.

 

Another good meditation book is actually Bardon. Starting with the whole watching your thoughts, then turning that to 24X7, all the way up to no thoughts. I'm surprised I forgot about his books/methods. Most magicians have worked through his steps at some point, and usually give up around the OK now no thoughts step lol. Awesome stuff though. Initiation into Hermetics is the title. This book also influenced my meditation methods a lot over the years.

 

When I was starting out, and for at least the first decade or so, I did an hour or 2 per day of meditation. Not saying one has to do this much, but I do feel it really helped. This was on top of my regular practice. After that my practice switched more over to magic for my entire practice time. Now it's a mixture, including some qigong, martial arts, magic and meditation .

 

As an aside I find that specific focused practice is very important, no matter what it is. To have a specific practices which have proven to be useful and affective over several generations of practitioners. Practiced daily.

[Michael Sternbach]

Thanks BKA, I see what you mean. I'll then better get my good old zazen cushion and the mat out again and knock the dust of two decades off. Zazen should be a good practice, too, in line with what you're suggesting. I also want to look into Bardon's book.

[Nungali]

Hi all, I have a query regarding the foundations of magickal practice.

 

 

I support firm foundations

 

For me they are 4 square and based on the 'elemental' world .... then you can build up a 5th element.

 

.... most of the time ...