Spirituality has to go

[bax44]

That's your argument? And those are your points? You make a lot of pre suppositions about a lot of people and quite frankly some of the points your making are not only obtuse but could be quite insulting to some. I know for myself my "self conning" spiritual practices have gotten me through health crisises, addictions, and some horrors that go quite deep. Stuff that modern medicine and science in all it's wisdom could do absolutely nothing for, except offer me another pill that just made me into more of a zombie.. To becoming a more content person. For you to assume these pursuits were me "conning" myself or being ignorant of objective reality is quite alarming. In fact spirituality for me has forced me to face objective reality as you put it face on and had made me stronger in a number of ways that are too many to mention. Spirituality has actually been the hardest thing I've put myself through because I've had to face myself and my fears and my faults all head on. It's been painful and scary at times but I had no choice. For someone to just toss this shit aside like I'm playing games in never never land and pretend that it's just about shooting fireballs from my ass is pretty as I said obtuse. But ya, if that's what spirituality was to me then I'd say fuck it too because you'd be right. But even then, if they aren't hurting anyone, who gives a damn? But I don't think most people here really believe that's what it is in fact I can't clearly define it for you except for what I've said above.

Edited October 16, 2014 by bax44

[Protector]

Well, good, but I think I could have helped pull you out from it just as fine.

Everyone deserves to know that they can pull themselves out of these things without any glitter added

I hate glitter

 

The doctors and pills didn't do good. If the whole practice was better, I wouldn't need to talk about this and we wouldn't be here.

Maybe that's what I should do instead.

[iain]

Spirituality gives sensitive people the strength to put up with assholes ...

Assholes do some times abuse this.

[C T]

Page 3 is a video with a pug in it, good one

clever pug

[dust]

 

I don't care that guns made by science are used in wars, I would make some better guns if I could.

...

The point is, the guns work and that a good thing, but the damn books don't work and that's the problem.

 

Nobody sees a problem here?

[dust]

Real revolution lies in our hearts and minds, and it can only come when we understand the whole total process of our being from day to day, in every relationship. And then only is there a possibility of preventing technical knowledge being used for the destruction of man.

[dust]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele

 

Mengele's published works did not deviate much from the scientific mainstream of the time, and would probably have been viewed as valid scientific efforts even outside the borders of Nazi Germany.

Mengele's later methods of murder and mutilation "worked" just fine, though one or two people have had a bit of a problem with them

 

 

 

http://theconversation.com/chemical-weapons-and-the-scientists-who-make-them-17701

Glad these weapons "work" for the benefit of mankind

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/dangerous-american-gangs-fbi-2011-11?op=1

Gangs "work" very well, and all are overtly religious. Or...

[Marblehead]

I doubt that spirituality will ever be a thing of the past. And this is because I think it is part of the human brain to wonder if there is really more to life than there really is. We never have enough - always wanting more.

[Jetsun]

Troll thread

[Seeker of Wisdom]

...I know for myself my "self conning" spiritual practices have gotten me through health crisises, addictions, and some horrors that go quite deep. Stuff that modern medicine and science in all it's wisdom could do absolutely nothing for, except offer me another pill that just made me into more of a zombie.. To becoming a more content person. For you to assume these pursuits were me "conning" myself or being ignorant of objective reality is quite alarming. In fact spirituality for me has forced me to face objective reality as you put it face on and had made me stronger in a number of ways that are too many to mention. Spirituality has actually been the hardest thing I've put myself through because I've had to face myself and my fears and my faults all head on. It's been painful and scary at times but I had no choice...

I think this is a strong argument that deserves to be repeated and looked at closely.

 

If a system of cultivation states 'problem A is caused by factor B, factor B is cured by factor C, factor C can be developed by technique D', and people with problem A apply technique D and it works, that supports the claims of that system and related systems. Especially when rigorous research such as MRI research is carried out.

 

If that system of cultivation were fundamentally deluded by being 'spiritual', how would the methods based on its theories produce reliable results? If a practice works, the theory behind it must be valid.

 

According to mainstream psychology, prolonged solitary confinement drives people mad - so how can cultivation practices allow people to thrive in decades of solitary retreat with no distractions, unless these practices are based on solid insights?

 

If the people who taught practical things about mental development that science hasn't even touched yet also made ideas like rebirth fundamental parts of their teaching, it suggests to me that those ideas can be experientally discovered through the practice of such cultivation, and can't just be brushed aside by 'these incredibly perceptive people were also a bit nuts'.

 

Of course that doesn't mean just accepting things like rebirth, let alone all the crazy stuff that gets added on by superstitious people over centuries... but my attitude is one of 'take this, it works, see where it leads'. So many highly sane people are having experiences that fit in the frameworks of cultivation traditions better than they do in mainstream psychology or other sciences.

 

If these traditions are right to that extent, they must be right about other things. How were these discoveries made without any scientific research if there is no 'spiritual' gnosis to be had there - highly intricate lucky guesses?

[doc benway]

My points:

 

In the opening post I'm arguing that everything spirituality values can be replaced.

That it opens the mind to magical thinking. ex. Doing the impossible with qi gong.

Simple thought can be transformed into a cult. ex. Guru's asking for money.

That it's a waste of energy and years of soul searching end up where you started

Lots of pretty word with no meaning. Words with meaning are long played out

Complete ignorance of the objective reality, things that stay true for every person.

 

It's a con, where you don't know you're being conned, because you're conning yourself

 

My points - you don't understand spirituality.

From my perspective, you are the one being conned and don't realize that you are conning yourself.

But I'm OK with that because it is how it is and clearly I can't change it.

I predict that it will change at some point in the future - you'll have to see if my prediction is accurate, haha

[doc benway]

I doubt that spirituality will ever be a thing of the past. And this is because I think it is part of the human brain to wonder if there is really more to life than there really is. We never have enough - always wanting more.

 

.... or, in the case of spirituality, less

[Brian]

Protector ignores the last hundred years of scientific advancement because it doesn't fit with his belief system (notice that almost all his examples come from the 1800s?), he dreams of being a robot, and he wishes he could invent some awesome new bigger & better guns -- presumably built into him like a Transformer, based on his stated desires.

 

It is sad that he is not a troll.

[Brian]

 

My points - you don't understand spirituality.

From my perspective, you are the one being conned and don't realize that you are conning yourself.

But I'm OK with that because it is how it is and clearly I can't change it.

I predict that it will change at some point in the future - you'll have to see if my prediction is accurate, haha

He doesn't understand science, either -- and doesn't seem to want to.

[C T]

He doesn't understand science, either -- and doesn't seem to want to.

Nor religion, nor magick, nor dreams, nor unmistakable inner experiences, nor...

... aah, nevermind.

[Marblehead]

Nor religion, nor magick, nor dreams, nor unmistakable inner experiences, nor...

... aah, nevermind.

Yes, nevermind. Let's not get too personal.

 

He is working with his understandings.

[C T]

Yes, nevermind. Let's not get too personal.

 

He is working with his understandings.

And i was only presenting mine, rsvp.

[Marblehead]

And i was only presenting mine, rsvp.

Fair enough.

[C T]

I recently started reading Mou Zongsan's Nineteen Lectures.

I enjoy his work immensely, mainly due to his often vigorous

examination of both classical Eastern and contemporary Western

philosophy. Imo, his views are very broad yet thorough enough

to consider seriously. In one of the Lectures, he succinctly noted:

 

"At present people first convert the problem of conducting one’s life into

psychology, then from psychology into physiology, then from physiology

into physics, and then into anthropology or some other science. Each person

looks at the human being from a different scientific viewpoint, in the process

of which the person disappears altogether. That is why all of this is pseudo-science.

Given that there is no big or small in scholarship, no big or small in truth, there is

nevertheless cause and effect. The order of beginning and end, cause and effect, and

priority in values must be distinguished. Some things cannot be solved by science.

I do not object to this level -- science -- but besides this level there are other levels.

But there are pan-scienticists, scientific mono-levelists who fail to recognize this.

We do not object to science, but we do oppose the pan-scienticists, the scientific

mono-levelists who make science the only criterion. "

 

A pertinent and critical point indeed.

 

 

 

Mou Zongsan's brief bio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mou_Zongsan

 

[Marblehead]

I almost liked that.

[dust]

I liked it with a very much.

[Nungali]

I'm not against "that behavior in religion." I couldn't care less about the behavior and I don't care if I seem to use it.

If I am, what of it? What's the point of bringing it up?

I care about what are the facts. Islam is not wrong because it starts wars, it's wrong because the book is wrong.

I don't care that guns made by science are used in wars, I would make some better guns if I could.

Spirituality is pure waste of brain power because it's not based in reality.

 

Thats a very narrow and uneducated opinion. As someone that has spent many years casually studying anthropology, including a non- graduate stint at Sydney Uni (oh ... and some Comparative religion as well) there is vast evidence that 'spirituality' and religious systems play an integral part in many things including the development of science itself !

 

Another example is this ..... what is it , that you think held Australian Aboriginal cultures together and existing for over 40,000 years? .... without fucking over the very environment that they were dependant on .... It wasnt science you know. It was their system of spirituality.

 

Lets see how long our great , scientific, non-spiritual modern western culture lasts .,... without fucking over the environment .

 

 

Hmmmmmm ?

[Nungali]

I'm not against "that behavior in religion." I couldn't care less about the behavior and I don't care if I seem to use it.

If I am, what of it? What's the point of bringing it up?

I care about what are the facts. Islam is not wrong because it starts wars, it's wrong because the book is wrong.

I don't care that guns made by science are used in wars, I would make some better guns if I could.

Spirituality is pure waste of brain power because it's not based in reality.

The point is, the guns work and that a good thing, but the damn books don't work and that's the problem.

 

I haven't even came close to loosing, since the only positive thing I've hear so far about spirituality was that it makes people feel nice and so I shouldn't bother them. Who would like to stop running around in circles and finally try to sell it to me?

 

The only thing I see people trying to sell to you is some common sense. And some powers of observation and discernment.

[C T]

Lets see how long our great , scientific, non-spiritual modern western culture lasts .,... without fucking over the environment .

If some things don't get broken in the name of science, many scientists will be left pensionless. No no no.... that won't do at all.

[Nungali]

Well, good, but I think I could have helped pull you out from it just as fine.

Everyone deserves to know that they can pull themselves out of these things without any glitter added

I hate glitter