Spirituality has to go

[Nungali]

I doubt that spirituality will ever be a thing of the past. And this is because I think it is part of the human brain to wonder if there is really more to life than there really is. We never have enough - always wanting more.

 

perhaps it is about wondering if there is more to life than our limited abilities can see at the present ... maybe it is clouded by ... oooooh ... maybe a youthful brashness to think we are much further along the road of comprehension than we actually are ... you know ... to think we have it all sorted out .... like the young Mark Twain;

 

 

“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”

[Nungali]

I recently started reading Mou Zongsan's Nineteen Lectures.

I enjoy his work immensely, mainly due to his often vigorous

examination of both classical Eastern and contemporary Western

philosophy. Imo, his views are very broad yet thorough enough

to consider seriously. In one of the Lectures, he succinctly noted:

 

"At present people first convert the problem of conducting one’s life into

psychology, then from psychology into physiology, then from physiology

into physics, and then into anthropology or some other science. Each person

looks at the human being from a different scientific viewpoint, in the process

of which the person disappears altogether. That is why all of this is pseudo-science.

Given that there is no big or small in scholarship, no big or small in truth, there is

nevertheless cause and effect. The order of beginning and end, cause and effect, and

priority in values must be distinguished. Some things cannot be solved by science.

I do not object to this level -- science -- but besides this level there are other levels.

But there are pan-scienticists, scientific mono-levelists who fail to recognize this.

We do not object to science, but we do oppose the pan-scienticists, the scientific

mono-levelists who make science the only criterion. "

 

A pertinent and critical point indeed.

 

 

 

Mou Zongsan's brief bio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mou_Zongsan

 

 

I agree but make a distinction with some sciences ... studying anthropology , particularly cultural anthropology; including related history ... may greatly help someone In P.'s position. It helps to sometimes get a wider and overall picture of what one actually IS and what has been going on .

 

Why do I get the impression this is a result of watching and being involved in too much internet garbage and gaming ???

[Marblehead]

Yeah, it's hard to measure what we don't know.

 

But then, what I do know has served me well so far.

[C T]

I agree but make a distinction with some sciences ... studying anthropology , particularly cultural anthropology; including related history ... may greatly help someone In P.'s position. It helps to sometimes get a wider and overall picture of what one actually IS and what has been going on .

 

Why do I get the impression this is a result of watching and being involved in too much internet garbage and gaming ???

I agree too, but the writer's intent is not to be seen as denying the usefulness of scientific platforms.

[Nungali]

I agree too, but the writer's intent is not to be seen as denying the usefulness of scientific platforms.

Yes but this particular 'scientific platform' acknowledges the beliefs as beneficial (in the context of 'science' ) that P puts out as useless .

 

He holds science up as the answer over 'spirituality' ...

 

but what about when science itself sees the value in 'spirituality' as it does in Cultural Anthropology ?

 

 

Anthropologists John Monoghan and Peter Just state that, "it seems apparent that one thing religion or belief helps us do is deal with problems of human life that are significant, persistent, and intolerable. One important way in which religious beliefs accomplish this is by providing a set of ideas about how and why the world is put together that allows people to accommodate anxieties and deal with misfortune."

 

Which goes directly against P's statement that such things have 'no value'. - and the statement is from 'scientists'.

 

A bigger social dynamic is evident here. In many cultures here (indigenous or immigrant) the problems in modern society are NOT being addressed or solved by any 'scientific', rationalist, social, or legal restraints or freedoms ... what works the best is getting people back in touch with their culture and spirituality ... their essential 'import' .

 

Its a subject probably beyond the content of this thread though.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Nungali

[Marblehead]

Yes but this particular 'scientific platform' acknowledges the beliefs as beneficial (in the context of 'science' ) that P puts out as useless .

 

He holds science up as the answer over 'spirituality' ...

 

but what about when science itself sees the value in 'spirituality' as it does in Cultural Anthropology ?

 

 

Anthropologists John Monoghan and Peter Just state that, "it seems apparent that one thing religion or belief helps us do is deal with problems of human life that are significant, persistent, and intolerable. One important way in which religious beliefs accomplish this is by providing a set of ideas about how and why the world is put together that allows people to accommodate anxieties and deal with misfortune."

Are you sure I said that?

 

I have to agree with both sides of the discussion.

 

I agree that we should know as much as we can as to how we live in the real world. This relies mostly on scientific, however crude, method. Cause and effect.

 

But then there are many who's life is not what they expected. And their reality is such that few if any changes can be made. These people will need spiritual guidance.

 

The quote is valid, I think, although I would never say such a thing.

[doc benway]

I'd like to comment on how civil this conversation has been despite the potentially contentious subject matter and commentary.

Bravo

[Seth Ananda]

I dont know why I keep looking at this thread?

 

I mean it was started by someone who's main interests seem to be soft drink...

[C T]

Are you sure I said that?

Im pretty sure it wasn't you cos....

 

 

'twas me.

[Nungali]

Are you sure I said that?

 

 

 

Doh !

 

... posting glitch (I meant to liKe your post ...but quoted by mistake and when I edited that out of my post and quoted CT .... I guess your named stayed there ?)

 

 

changed it now though.

 

No I wasnt cheating ..... like this;

 

 

That Nungali is a great guy ! Handsome too

 

 

Edited October 17, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

I dont know why I keep looking at this thread?

 

I mean it was started by someone who's main interests seem to be soft drink...

 

 

Maybe you are curious about what the results of excessive soft drink consumption are ?

[Marblehead]

 

Doh !

 

... posting glitch (I meant to liKe your post ...but quoted by mistake and when I edited that out of my post and quoted CT .... I guess your named stayed there ?)

 

 

changed it now though.

 

No I wasnt cheating ..... like this;

 

 

 

Hehehe.

 

Life is funny that way. This happens in real life too because we can be talking with someone and they hear you say thing you have never said and most times they hear only what they want to her from you and totally ignore whatever else you have said.

 

Better to keep our mouth shut but I'm not well known for doing that.

[Marblehead]

Are we at a point for final analysis yet? Will spirituality stay or will it have to go?

[dust]

Are we at a point for final analysis yet? Will spirituality stay or will it have to go?

 

Are we deciding for humanity?

[Marblehead]

Are we deciding for humanity?

Hehehe. Don't get me involved in the answer. I'm asking the question.

[doc benway]

I would say the overwhelming majority of participants in this thread want it to say, so that's it then.

So while we waste our time meditating, the OP will be hard at work designing better guns.

Thanks everyone.

Next?

[Jetsun]

I think we all just have to be good boys and girls now and wait to be told by a scientist what is real and what isn't and what is meaningful in our lives, if an aspect of our lives can't be put in a pie chart then we have to ignore and repress it with all our strength until the day that it can be.

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. I just gave up on "science".

 

Nothing left to do but live.

[Songtsan]

A very nice post CrazyFox, it is a pleasure to read you.

 

Here are a few thoughts that you have inspired:

 

I would like to mention that this subject has already been studied scientifically, and over thousands of years; though one must study Sanskrit a little to understand this, the sense is lost in English; or one may have had a direct experience. Study is recommended as a practice within the safety of a lineage; in which the knowledge is passed on through the generations to those capable of grasping its deepest understanding, they are few and far between.

 

Grace, or "anugraha" as it is known in Sanskrit, does not come unless the aspirant is ready; given through Śaktipāta, either due to the conditions of that individual person being ripe; or their being close to or finding an able master who has been instructed in the ways of this.

I think my point here is that; the notion of the individual crying out to God for help, although within the denigration of Western society, is correct; It is perhaps not in this instance the best portrayal of what is to my mind humanities most efficient knowledge passing system.

 

Knowledge, like living beings aspires to reproduce its self ... The Knowledge it's self, is both transient and transcendental.

 

Thank you.

 

Good post. I did in fact receive Saktipat from the Hariharananda Kriya yoga lineage, which stems from Babaji and beyond...so I have the active communication with Ma-Shakti of various forms. My cries for help, prayers, etc. certainly go to this One. So I have this pathway open...I am very interested in studying Sanskrit...I have never applied myself to it, but I do hear often of its enormous wealth of God touched expression...

[Songtsan]

I really deeply resonate with Protector's view...I am in a bind and that is that I do not yet have faith in any particular religion or belief system, and I even question whether they are all group-mind created fantasies.

 

Those of you who are trying to shut down his pure and true instinct to search for the Truth should back off.

 

I am in the same boat.

 

I often fear that I am being milked by these spirits whose only goal is to appear to be whatever you wish so that you express your emotions outwards so that they can feed upon them.

 

In Taoism, it seems that the intent is to feed those energies back into your own immortal body instead...therefore, I often feel that these religions are merely set up by parasitic interests by astral plane entities who know how to work a person to death - sucking all their essence from them by encouraging some type of outwards search for completion which produces intoxicating emotional energies which can be sucked from us...

[dust]

his pure and true instinct to search for the Truth

 

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. I suppose his desire to be a robot and eliminate humanity from humankind could be said to be "pure and true", but that doesn't make it "good". Sometimes, the truth is a pile of fecal matter.

 

Besides, any of us "trying to shut down" this search are only doing that out of our own instinctive, pure, and true instinct to search for the truth ourselves. And if he didn't want anyone to argue with him, he shouldn't have posted such a controversial topic (or at all).

 

In Taoism, it seems that the intent is to feed those energies back into your own immortal body instead...therefore, I often feel that these religions are merely set up by parasitic interests by astral plane entities who know how to work a person to death - sucking all their essence from them by encouraging some type of outwards search for completion which produces intoxicating emotional energies which can be sucked from us...

 

I'm not sure how to respond to this either, other than to suggest that our understandings of Taoism are fundamentally different.

 

Taoism never encouraged me to "search for completion" -- I found it through my innate desire or need to understand things.

Edited October 17, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Songtsan]

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. I suppose his desire to be a robot and eliminate humanity from humankind could be said to be "pure and true", but that doesn't make it "good". Sometimes, the truth is a pile of fecal matter.

 

I don't say I agree with all his desires...I myself wish to become part cyborg and experiment...I see myself as spirit come to a material plane temporarily and I like to see new things - experimentation.

 

I totally think that everyone is OK to proceed on their own paths and find out for themselves what is true or not, so I disagree with his major statement that spirituality has to go.

 

I think that he has a good instinct...he is in the phase of doubting what everyone else is/has been preaching for eons, which I applaud. The world needs thinkers like this to keep the ship from sinking into stagnant artificial views that don't match reality.

 

Besides, any of us "trying to shut down" this search are only doing that out of our own instinctive, pure, and true instinct to search for the truth ourselves. And if he didn't want anyone to argue with him, he shouldn't have posted such a controversial topic (or at all).

 

Good point! True true true...we meet in the middle...haha!

 

I'm not sure how to respond to this either, other than to suggest that our understandings of Taoism are fundamentally different.

 

Taoism never encouraged me to "search for completion" -- I found it through my innate desire or need to understand things.

 

I can't say I know enough about Taoism yet...it's a constant journey for me....I am a little vague on the whole purpose....I would have to post in another thread so as not to go off subject

[dust]

I don't say I agree with all his desires...I myself wish to become part cyborg and experiment...I see myself as spirit come to a material plane temporarily and I like to see new things - experimentation.

 

Experimentation I fully understand. My life is one big experiment. But I don't really understand why being robot would be preferable to being human.

 

I think that he has a good instinct...he is in the phase of doubting what everyone else is/has been preaching for eons, which I applaud. The world needs thinkers like this to keep the ship from sinking into stagnant artificial views that don't match reality.

 

True enough. Dogma is the real enemy.

 

 

I can't say I know enough about Taoism yet

 

Who does?

[Songtsan]

Experimentation I fully understand. My life is one big experiment. But I don't really understand why being robot would be preferable to being human.

 

I would have no problem being put in a robot body, as long as it had a bunch of sense inputs...why be attached to either flesh or metal? We have metal in us already..hehe...I don't see it as unnatural...If in 60 years or so, Protector and I are living in immortal robot bodies, I will think back on these types of conversations and chuckle...if my own spirit is immortal, and the identity illusion, what is wrong with trying to keep an illusion alive when times spans billions of years? Eventually one would get tired and go back to non-physical existence, but this is definitely something that will happen. Medical science, artificial hearts, exoskeletons, all that stuff is already in existence. I have no attachment to being 'human' - I wish to become all things - animals, plants, robots and more - I believe that I can! I will inhabit many vehicles...

 

I wouldn't ever diss anyone else's preferred vehicle though - each to their own - yep!

 

True enough. Dogma is the real enemy.

 

Indeed. Even one's own dogma is an interferer...to hell with dogma. Yet, at the same time it will certainly be significant in shaping oneself, so I respect its power....

[bax44]

I don't get the people coming in telling others to "back off" and don't "be too hard or get personal" w the op. it's fine if you agree w some or all of his assertions however lets not pretend he hasn't put some assertions out there that have attempted to paint many here with as broad a brush as possible to fit his own agenda. It goes both ways and after all he's the one telling us spirituality has to go so he should expect some kickback especially seeing as he's been plenty confrontational himself. And I still see people bringing up religion like it's somehow relevant to the ops argument. It's like when someone can't really get everyone to buy into the assertion spirituality is bad they immediately jump to the religion argument as of they are one in the same, something protector has done time and again across these glorious last 20 pages.