Vajra strands

[Tibetan_Ice]

This is stage one of togal.

how do you know? Do you have training?

Those are floaters.

What stage is next? The blue field entoptic stars/balls? There is a video of them on the first page of this thread.

[wangchungman]

how do you know? Do you have training?

Those are floaters.

What stage is next? The blue field entoptic stars/balls? There is a video of them on the first page of this thread.

 

I have gone through several of these teachings. I'm old. Those are vajra chains. The only "floaters" excluded as a first stage vision are the one's that are not luminous and shiny, namely the ones that look like a dead hangnail. In the first stage they literally float and swarm and swim. Then they come to rest and a few will stand out and be perfectly still. The blue field is also first stage, but also hangs around in the last stage. But not as spread out blue field. It has to form a circle. That's the second stage when the little circles start to form concentric circles and light up with colors. Then the third stage the mandalas of peaceful and wrathful deities start to appear inside the circles of colors. then he fourth stage the body dissolves into light. Tulku Urgyen explained for the highest practitioner there won't be rainbow colors but only blue circle of light. I checked this the Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche. Where you guys are going wrong is you can't think something appearing is the right one or good. You just have to hold the postures and gazes and let whatever happens to happen. It may or may not fit the pattern. The examples in the four visions are only examples. Many other things can happen. The point is that whatever appears is not generated by your ideas or imagination. They are just happening like a burp or fart.

Edited October 25, 2014 by wangchungman

[Tibetan_Ice]

Here is a very good explanation of the blue entoptic field

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

I have gone through several of these teachings. I'm old. Those are vajra chains. The only "floaters" excluded as a first stage vision are the one's that are not luminous and shiny, namely the ones that look like a dead hangnail. In the first stage they literally float and swarm and swim. Then they come to rest and a few will stand out and be perfectly still. The blue field is also first stage, but also hangs around in the last stage. But not as spread out blue field. It has to form a circle. That's the second stage when the little circles start to form concentric circles and light up with colors. Then the third stage the mandalas of peaceful and wrathful deities start to appear inside the circles of colors. then he fourth stage the body dissolves into light. Tulku Urgyen explained for the highest practitioner there won't be rainbow colors but only blue circle of light. I checked this the Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche. Where you guys are going wrong is you can't think something appearing is the right one or good. You just have to hold the postures and gazes and let whatever happens to happen. It may or may not fit the pattern. The examples in the four visions are only examples. Many other things can happen. The point is that whatever appears is not generated by your ideas or imagination. They are just happening like a burp or fart.

That is very interesting. Thank you for that.

Did you ever succeed in dissolving your body?

[Tibetan_Ice]

A ngondro beginner uses support during the early days of the practice to get a feel of what bodhicitta really is. In this sense, there is effort. Where there is effort, its called 'relative bodhicitta'.

 

Towards the completion of one Ngondro cycle (meaning all accumulations have been done) ideally the dependence on outer supports should have naturally ceased, and the practitioner should have gained an effortless realisation of bodhicitta at this stage.

 

Its not actually two types of bodhicitta - relative and absolute pertains only to the dependence of support in the former, and independence of it in the latter.

 

When realisation arises free of contrived effort, and can remain steadily even though mental and physical distractions are present, one is said to have gained mastery of absolute bodhicitta. Ngondro can facilitate this despite its preliminary status.

Your statements remind me of the two truths and the fact that Dzoghen does not support the two truths. In accordance, then yes, there would be only one type of bodhicitta, but two different means of arriving at the same conclusion.

[wangchungman]

That is very interesting. Thank you for that.

Did you ever succeed in dissolving your body?

That is something that happens at death for someone who spends their life in retreat. I don't think I'm on that route.

[wangchungman]

Your statements remind me of the two truths and the fact that Dzoghen does not support the two truths. In accordance, then yes, there would be only one type of bodhicitta, but two different means of arriving at the same conclusion.

the two truths is part of the gradualist system; dzogchen goes beyond any truth

[Tibetan_Ice]

Wangchungman, did you ever master shamatha or one pointed concentration?

[C T]

the two truths is part of the gradualist system; dzogchen goes beyond any truth

I can understand how some aspiring Dzogchen practitioners would say this, but

personally, i cannot agree that Dzogchen goes beyond any truth. If the poster

would like to further clarify what he meant, it could help foster better understanding.

 

If Dzogchen goes beyond truth, what is the purpose of practice? How is

fruition to be understood? Even though the path excludes reliance on the

two truths, it does not negate ultimate fruition.

 

Moreover, the two truths, being philosophical tools, do not actually relate

to the generation and completion stages of Mahayoga, within which the

actual training of bodhicitta takes root.

 

 

 

This advice given by Dolpo Tulku Rinpoche should clear all doubts.

 

 

Having thought about the sufferings of others, one then develops compassion by exchanging self for others, which is part of bodhicitta training. Exchanging self for others is the most profound method of training in compassion. For example, if we go to a hospital and see somebody who is seriously ill, just by looking at the person we don't automatically feel compassion. But if we think "If this sick person were myself, how would it feel? His coughing, his pain... if it were me who was sick, how much would I suffer?" Thinking in this way we come to feel compassion.

We can think of a destitute beggar sitting near a gate in the hot Indian sun, who begs all day long for rupees from each person who passes by. He asks each person. Some give something, which is good; some don't give anything and scold him; some give, but look down on him. That begging person, if they were me – me, who can't even handle being hungry for one day – if that beggar near the gate was me, how would it be? Thinking in that way, we begin to feel compassion for poor people.

We can generate compassion by taking examples like this and imagining what it would be like if these sufferings of others were my own. Generating compassion does not necessarily require you to be in a cave or formal retreat setting, accumulating the 500,000 ngondros and so forth. If we really know how to practise, at all times as we go about our day, sitting, sleeping, etc. we can naturally generate compassion in our mindstream by thinking of the suffering and problems of others. One might not have the appearance of a Dharma practitioner, but it is a real practice of compassion nevertheless.

Therefore, this Mahayana practice of generating bodhicitta direct relates to our daily lives in cyclic existence. Thinking of the suffering we undergo, compassion develops in our minds. And if we continually think in this way, when the teachers tell us to generate bodhicitta, then just by merely remembering the sufferings of beings we will feel that, for their sake, we want to directly serve with body, speech and mind as much as we can. Then it really becomes bodhicitta generation. Otherwise, just reciting the words "I generate bodhicitta" will not have any effect. So, generate your motivation clearly in this way, and I will now give a brief introduction to the ngondro (preliminary practices).

What does "ngondro" mean? On the path to reaching the state of buddhahood there are two parts: the main practice and the ngondro (preliminary practices). When it comes to the main part, in the Nyingma we have the generation and completion stages of Mahayoga practice; tsa-lung (channels and vital energies) and tigle (essential drops) of Anuyoga practice; and of Atiyoga practice there are ka-dag (essential purity) and trekcho (breakthrough). These are the stages of the main practices.

In order to complete all these stages of practice, one needs to first go through a proper training of ngondro. But when we say ngondro, or preliminaries, it doesn't mean that they are lower or less important than the main practices. Within the ngondro practices all the Mahayoga, Anuyoga and Atiyoga practices of generation and completion stages, tsa-lung, and the essential purity of trekcho are complete.

Some people think that because the ngondro is what comes before the main practices, the main practices are more important and the ngondro less important. They then speed through the ngondro without looking to see whether or not bodhicitta is developing in one's mind, or whether or not negativities and obscurations are being purified when practising Vajrasattva. Thinking that the preliminaries have to be finished first, they are just concerned with accumulating the numbers; being more interested in the main part, they try to finish the ngondro as fast as they can. This is a mistake.

Without paying attention to the practice within one's mindstream and just counting in order to finish, someone might say they have finished the ngondro but actually they have not done it purely. The ngondro is like a foundation of a building, on which we can build several storeys of the main practices. Without a good foundation of ngondro practice, we can't build any levels of the main practices. From among the ngondro practices, let's take refuge as an example: if one goes for refuge understanding the reasons, and gains stable faith in the object of refuge, the Three Jewels, then it is an authentic practice of refuge. But if we do it without understanding the reasons in our mind and have no faith in the Three Jewels, just doing 100,000 recitations of the words "I go for refuge to the lama, I go for refuge to the buddha..." is not an actual practice of going for refuge. Without actually going for refuge with faith, first of all one isn't even a Buddhist, and if one isn't a Buddhist there is no way for Buddhist practices to have any lasting effect.

If one merely recites the words of the bodhicitta practice but develops no compassion in the mind, then it is not a practice of the Mahayana and the person is not a Mahayana practitioner of bodhicitta. And without the practice of bodhicitta there can be no actual main practice of either sutra or tantra. Without the two pillars of refuge and bodhicitta, how could one ever build a roof?

So for these reasons the ngondro is important.

 

[wangchungman]

Wangchungman, did you ever master shamatha or one pointed concentration?

 

Yes.

[wangchungman]

If Dzogchen goes beyond truth, what is the purpose of practice? How is

fruition to be understood?

 

You need a teacher for that. It is introduced directly to perception.

[C T]

You need a teacher for that. It is introduced directly to perception.

How does that even relate to your assertion that it (Dzogchen) is beyond truth?

 

Moreover, you implied that 'fruition' results from direct introduction.

Are you sure about this? It does not seem probable as there are many who still

experience wobbliness even after receiving abhisheka.

[wangchungman]

How does that even relate to your assertion that it (Dzogchen) is beyond truth?

 

Moreover, you implied that 'fruition' results from direct introduction.

Are you sure about this? It does not seem probable as there are many who still

experience wobbliness even after receiving abhisheka.

 

1. Everything is unreal

2. I'm sure. Wobbles stop eventually.

[C T]

1. Everything is unreal

2. I'm sure. Wobbles stop eventually.

1. Of that you are without any doubt? Is that a truth?

 

2. Thats easy to say.

[wangchungman]

1. Of that you are without any doubt? Is that a truth?

 

2. Thats easy to say.

 

1. no doubt/no truth

2. that wasn't so hard either

[Anderson]

You need a teacher for that. It is introduced directly to perception.

 

 

Usually introduction doesnt work.

Nobody realises anything during introduction.

 

1. Everything is unreal

2. I'm sure. Wobbles stop eventually.

Yeah..That's a belief like "I believe in god".

My teacher tells us with almost every webcast that this life is like a big dream.Does that help ?

No.Most of us are still deluded and cant make use or sense of that expression.

Serving us expressions like these it doesn't help.The only thing we can do with them is we either believe or disbelieve them.

Which is unfortunate because dzogchen is not about construing new beliefs.

 

But the sad fact is that most of the time, the teachings received from our teachers if they fail to destroy the vail of obscurations through initiation and introduction, all they do is they serve as material for more and more beliefs.

We accumulate beliefs all the time and that's due to our inability to see the truth or reality that expression points to.

[Brian]

Belief dissolves with experience. Someone who witnesses a rainbow, for instance, no longer takes them on faith -- understanding or being able to explain them are irrelevant. Someone who approaches rainbows from an analytical perspective may be able to "explain" them without experiencing them but is no closer to understanding them pre-experience than is the "believer." The "explainer" merely believes in them in a different way.

 

Being reminded that we each paint our own picture can help in quieting the intellect until, one day, maybe, we look beyond our painting at the sunrise. Having seen the sunrise, one neither need "believe" in sunrises nor mistake a painting for one.

 

Until/unless we forget again...

 

 

None of this means that what we think we experience is "real," of course.

[wangchungman]

Usually introduction doesnt work.

Nobody realises anything during introduction.

So you have the stats?

 

Yeah..That's a belief like "I believe in god".

My teacher tells us with almost every webcast that this life is like a big dream.Does that help ?

No.Most of us are still deluded and cant make use or sense of that expression.

Serving us expressions like these it doesn't help.The only thing we can do with them is we either believe or disbelieve them.

Which is unfortunate because dzogchen is not about construing new beliefs.

 

But the sad fact is that most of the time, the teachings received from our teachers if they fail to destroy the vail of obscurations through initiation and introduction, all they do is they serve as material for more and more beliefs.

We accumulate beliefs all the time and that's due to our inability to see the truth or reality that expression points to.

 

No. It's logical.

[Anderson]

So you have the stats?

Ah... you must be one of those mythical and rare individuals who discovers their nature during introduction.

Nobody means nobody.

[ralis]

Ah... you must be one of those mythical and rare individuals who discovers their nature during introduction. Nobody means nobody.

 

I guess I am one of those rare individuals.

[wangchungman]

Nobody means nobody.

 

You have my sincerest sympathies. Don't worry. You and everyone else will eventually.

Edited October 29, 2014 by wangchungman

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

Yes.

If you don't mind me asking, what was your object of meditation? Did you pass through the jhanas?

[Anderson]

You have my sincerest sympathies. Don't worry. You and everyone else will eventually.

 

Thank you for being vague.

"Sympathies" have been invented to cover the inability to help and the lack of knowledge

[BaguaKicksAss]

So what's introduction?

[wangchungman]

It's an empowerment. It's like a very condensed retreat with a master. It makes everything very clear.