Vajra strands

[wangchungman]

If you don't mind me asking, what was your object of meditation? Did you pass through the jhanas?

Breath

[wangchungman]

 

Thank you for being vague.

"Sympathies" have been invented to cover the inability to help and the lack of knowledge

There are many Dzogchen texts that are very clear. If someone wants to understand one simply has to study them. One should receive an empowerment. Most of them will recommend that. But for example the Six Lamps describes a method of self initiation using yoga techniques. If you are one who simply wants to deny Dzogchen as a path or a reality, then I won't stop you. That's your prerogative.

[Anderson]

There are many Dzogchen texts that are very clear. If someone wants to understand one simply has to study them. One should receive an empowerment. Most of them will recommend that. But for example the Six Lamps describes a method of self initiation using yoga techniques. If you are one who simply wants to deny Dzogchen as a path or a reality, then I won't stop you. That's your prerogative.

 

Are you saying that one can self initiate just by reading a text ?

I never heard that one can receive initiation that way .This is not how dzogchen works and gets transmitted.

And what is SIx Lamps ?

[wangchungman]

Are you saying that one can self initiate just by reading a text ?

I never heard that one can receive initiation that way .This is not how dzogchen works and gets transmitted.

And what is SIx Lamps ?

 

No. Not just by reading a text. You have to engage in the yoga procedures in the text. Yes, it is true that for the most part, one will need to be initiated by a master. This is because of the problem of self-doubt that persists when one engages on one's own. But in the Bon Dzogchen texts, like the "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya," and in the text called "The Six Lamps," there are yoga methods that one can do which the texts explain will result in self-initiation. "Heart Drops" specifically mentions self-initiation, "Six Lamps" does not. But they both refer to the same methods. Bon's transmission of Dzogchen is far more open. My feeling is to agree with them. If one is going to practice Trekcho only, I feel one will need an initiation because this experience is so subtle that a yogic method will not help to reveal it. It is for this reason that Vajrayana and all paths of transformation require initiation. However, Thogal is working with something concrete within the experience of embodiment, that being the entoptic lights. One can conceivably experience these without outside help. Pressing the eyes is one way. If one practices looking at these lights long enough, the experience of Trekcho will emerge within it, because that is the nature of these lights. They are already pure appearances whose nature is the three kayas. Whereas, in the path of transformation one is working with the channels of wisdom and samsara. The practices invite experiences that are starting out as samsaric. So unless one has the initiation, one will not be able to distinguish the pure and the impure.

[wangchungman]

Another problem I see is that these texts talk about visions, as if they are a universal constant. However, it is not so. They are various. So a practitioner could be doing better than they think simply because they are expecting elaborate visions which may not occur. Also the texts talk about the fourth vision as if the visions dissolve or disappear. But this is also not so. The body disappears at death. This is what the fourth vision is referring to. Tremendous wasted effort is spent due to these simple misunderstandings. If one wants to practice the combined paths of transformation and Dzogchen in a very well-kept lineage, then of course one should follow the traditional route. But if one wants to practice Dzogchen in a very simple way, one can also do that. It's important to keep in mind that one has to keep one's practice a secret. Discussing it will ruin one's path because one will become the servant to so many distractions.

[Anderson]

No. Not just by reading a text. You have to engage in the yoga procedures in the text. Yes, it is true that for the most part, one will need to be initiated by a master. This is because of the problem of self-doubt that persists when one engages on one's own. But in the Bon Dzogchen texts, like the "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya," and in the text called "The Six Lamps," there are yoga methods that one can do which the texts explain will result in self-initiation. "Heart Drops" specifically mentions self-initiation, "Six Lamps" does not. But they both refer to the same methods. Bon's transmission of Dzogchen is far more open. My feeling is to agree with them. If one is going to practice Trekcho only, I feel one will need an initiation because this experience is so subtle that a yogic method will not help to reveal it. It is for this reason that Vajrayana and all paths of transformation require initiation. However, Thogal is working with something concrete within the experience of embodiment, that being the entoptic lights. One can conceivably experience these without outside help. Pressing the eyes is one way. If one practices looking at these lights long enough, the experience of Trekcho will emerge within it, because that is the nature of these lights. They are already pure appearances whose nature is the three kayas. Whereas, in the path of transformation one is working with the channels of wisdom and samsara. The practices invite experiences that are starting out as samsaric. So unless one has the initiation, one will not be able to distinguish the pure and the impure.

 

I wonder what Yongdzin Rinpoche would say about the fact that one by applying certain methods can self initiate or that one can practice thogal without transmission from a qualified guru.

Can you point me to where in the "heart drops" book there is a mention about self initiation ?

[wangchungman]

 

I wonder what Yongdzin Rinpoche would say about the fact that one by applying certain methods can self initiate or that one can practice thogal without transmission from a qualified guru.

Can you point me to where in the "heart drops" book there is a mention about self initiation ?

At the end of the section on Rushen

[Anderson]

At the end of the section on Rushen

The last section of the preliminary practices chapter is " Dzogchen view " which is no longer than 2 pages.

There is nothing in it about methods of self initiation.

[wangchungman]

The last section of the preliminary practices chapter is " Dzogchen view " which is no longer than 2 pages.

There is nothing in it about methods of self initiation.

Sorry. Beginning of Book II The Practice of Tregchö

 

"First of all we should get into the right state for the essential ripening of the mind. For this purpose it is necessary to receive the initiation. However, if you come through this preliminary practice you will receive initiation with the practice itself."

 

Then it is restated in footnote 1.

 

"Lopon comments that when you receive initiation it is to show you the natural state. Afterword you can check whether you received anything by seeing whether you then perfectly understand the natural state. However, if you do the preliminary practices you will see the natural state. So that is the initiation in itself."

 

Heart Drops page 51