Atheism as a religion

[Marblehead]

Though I have often seen you say sometimes you don't know what you mean How will we ever know when you actually know? Hehe (there goes my insecurity again)

Hehehe. The best thing I can say here is to "Trust yourself, not me."

[iain]

Hello Rara,

The quantum slit experiment is a demonstration of the rather peculiar goings on at a microscopic scale in our universe, by that I mean smaller than is perceivable to the naked eye, with an average degree of conciseness; this is also apparent at a larger scale; if you know where and how to look, but that tangent is for another day.
The experiment is set up as follows; a laser light is placed in front of a photographic plate, a sheet of non translucent material is placed between the plate and the laser and a tiny slit is cut into the material, so that a single band of laser light is formed on the plate on the other side. Another sheet of the same material is then taken, this time with two parallel slits in it instead of one, and the first sheet replaced. The slits are sufficiently close together as to fall inside the perimeter of the circle that is the lasers dot, or otherwise said, the region where the photon from the laser might pass when pointed at the photographic plate behind.
Now when light passes through the two slits together, many lines appear on the photographic plate as the light from each slit interacts as waves in water to create a striped pattern of interference.

A quick recap;

one slit = one band.
two slits = multiple band wave interference.





Grey filters are placed in front of the laser at a thickness such that only one photon of light manages to get through the filters roughly every 30 seconds. The machine is switched on with the single slit filter and a new photographic plate and many images are shot, each taking a progressively longer exposure time to show how the particle hits build up over time to form a single stripe.
The experiment is then repeated with the double slit filter in front replacing the single slit, and the same shots are repeated to show what happens.

Now here is the crux of the conundrum, if only one particle travels through the slit at a time there is surly no interference, right? Well the reality is that the photons behave as if all the light were passing through the slit at the same time.
Giving the following results.



There is an issue with time here, a serious one.

The next point is that we might try to place a photon detector on the slit to see through which slit the photon passes each time one is emitted from the laser with grey filters; the thing is that when this is done the wave interference patter collapses and only two single strips are produced on the plate again as if there were no interference as is the case with only one slit.

The famous cat of Mr Schrödinger's, is a thought experiment and paradox based entirely upon this very real scientific experiment and its resulting paradox.

This is the underlying nature of the fabric of our reality, as science understands it today ...
Essential to all other sciences.

Edited October 23, 2014 by iain

[Brian]

Very nicely stated, iain.

[iain]

Thank you Brian.

[iain]

Physics is my stronger side, as well as maths. Not strongest, not expert, but fairly well educated. I'm lucky in that my Wing Chun teacher is PhD Physics, research fellow and university lecturer. As a good friend, I happen to just hear all about it by default.

Ahhh, you are blessed to have found a great teacher; I think this is simply the essence of what it means to be human, to my mind any way.

 

Edited October 23, 2014 by iain

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Very nicely stated, iain.

 

Yes, very nice iain, what it has to do with akasha is another thing entirely, but that there is some relation to traditional concepts is certainly a possible extrapolation, and I would like to point out another traditional concept for which there is ample, what we might call meta-evidence, and that is the concept of "Formal Cause", a concept put forward by Aristotle, but strongly related to Plato's "Doctrine of Ideas".

 

In his essay "Concepts of Cause in the Development of Physics", which can be found in a collection of his essays The Essential Tension, starting on page 21, Thomas Kuhn argues that while the notion of "formal causes" was explicitly rejected by the nascent "Scientific Revolution" in the Seventeenth Century, it has consistently worked its way back into physics in the progressive mathematization of physics since 1700. The interesting thing is that this reintroduction of formal causes as mathematics actually moves the concept more in the direction of Plato than Aristotle would have liked.

 

I looked seriously at the implications of the double split experiment back circa 1980 and it was one of my reasons for adopting Platonism as my general working model of the world. I also made a conjecture at that time that information theory (in a sense an instantiation of Plato's "ideas") would allow the unification of physics which would solve the particle/wave problem. Physics has certainly opened up in that direction, but it has a ways to go.

[Rara]

Hello Rara,

 

The quantum slit experiment is a demonstration of the rather peculiar goings on at a microscopic scale in our universe, by that I mean smaller than is perceivable to the naked eye, with an average degree of conciseness; this is also apparent at a larger scale; if you know where and how to look, but that tangent is for another day.

The experiment is set up as follows; a laser light is placed in front of a photographic plate, a sheet of non translucent material is placed between the plate and the laser and a tiny slit is cut into the material, so that a single band of laser light is formed on the plate on the other side. Another sheet of the same material is then taken, this time with two parallel slits in it instead of one, and the first sheet replaced. The slits are sufficiently close together as to fall inside the perimeter of the circle that is the lasers dot, or otherwise said, the region where the photon from the laser might pass when pointed at the photographic plate behind.

Now when light passes through the two slits together, many lines appear on the photographic plate as the light from each slit interacts as waves in water to create a striped pattern of interference.

 

A quick recap;

 

one slit = one band.

two slits = multiple band wave interference.

 

 

 

Grey filters are placed in front of the laser at a thickness such that only one photon of light manages to get through the filters roughly every 30 seconds. The machine is switched on with the single slit filter and a new photographic plate and many images are shot, each taking a progressively longer exposure time to show how the particle hits build up over time to form a single stripe.

The experiment is then repeated with the double slit filter in front replacing the single slit, and the same shots are repeated to show what happens.

 

Now here is the crux of the conundrum, if only one particle travels through the slit at a time there is surly no interference, right? Well the reality is that the photons behave as if all the light were passing through the slit at the same time.

Giving the following results.

 

 

There is an issue with time here, a serious one.

 

The next point is that we might try to place a photon detector on the slit to see through which slit the photon passes each time one is emitted from the laser with grey filters; the thing is that when this is done the wave interference patter collapses and only two single strips are produced on the plate again as if there were no interference as is the case with only one slit.

 

The famous cat of Mr Schrödinger's, is a thought experiment and paradox based entirely upon this very real scientific experiment and its resulting paradox.

 

This is the underlying nature of the fabric of our reality, as science understands it today ...

Essential to all other sciences.

I didn't do too badly trying to remember, did I It was a good 4 years ago now that I learnt about this.

 

But no, not my area at all but I will echo the responses here and say yes, very well explained.

 

The tangent and relation to what we were talking about should wait, sure. I would like to take time to digest this again anyway.

[iain]

The relevance to the conversation is very simple.

The scientific axioms of today's economic/science paradigm can only see one band of light and is trying to look deeper and deeper into that band. without realizing the fundamental flaw in basing perception of reality on the result of the physical senses rather than the senses them selves, or at the very least their distortion; A kin to the ego being the photon detector.

Edited October 23, 2014 by iain

[zerostao]

interesting developments with his thread and yesterday i mentioned lacan and zizek.

and right on que they arrive.

lacan says that the real is beyond the symbolic and that with the opposition of presence and absence,

there is no absence in the real. the opposition is symbolic, and in the symbolic there may be implied something is absent.

the real is always in its place. the symbolic is a set of differentiated signifiers and the real is undifferentiated.

the symbolic introduces the process of signification. it is the world of words that creates the world of things.

the real emerges as that which is outside of language )the tao that can be spoken isnt the real as lao tzu tells us.

the real resists symbolism absolutely.

zizek adds that this symbolic real is reduced to some meaningless formula like quantum physics which is understood with simple metaphors. it is a different modality than the imaginary real and far far from the real real.

in some ways i am platonic, i like platonic love ideal for example.i like his view on beauty, form and flormless. plato saw the power of poetry but he didnt understand it and even wanted poets bannished lol, he didnt trust them and who could predict what they might create.

 

[iain]

We are looking out at the universe through giant telescopes in a very linear single silted way, and 80% of the universe is apparently missing.

I chose to name the missing part the flying spaghetti monster ... I know that it is there because I can feel it in my gut.

[iain]

... zizek adds that this symbolic real is reduced to some meaningless formula like quantum physics ...

 

With all due respect, if the formula is truly meaningless; perhaps you could try explaning to me how the micro processor in the plastic type writer shaped box upon which we are communicating is working in plain English. Those meaningless equations are a mathematical short hand for the explanation that you are about to give ...

 

[zerostao]

i think i already gave the answer. at the least pointed to it. dont get me wrong, i enjoy reading the writings of quantum physicists.

i look at these guys like rock stars, great entertainers, imaginative thinkers, provoking thought which is great.

explore new frontiers. its all good just like plato's form of the good. i am just saying that the real real is beyond quantum physics.

edit> plotinus long ago told us that there are many roads.

Edited October 23, 2014 by zerostao

[iain]

^{I love the point that you mentioned about poets; I must look into that further ...}

Edited October 23, 2014 by iain

[zerostao]

^{I love the point that you mentioned about poets; I must look into that further ...}

it doesnt have to be the poet per se, could be the quantum physicist, the artist, the philosopher, the psycologist, neurologist, etc but from any area one great thinker can come along and upset the status quo

and a new way emerge.

but in ancient greece i think the poet was onto it first. and this idea arise in sufi thought as elsewhere , i mentioned previous, da vinci tells us to closely study the ancients rather than the modern.

Edited October 23, 2014 by zerostao

[iain]

Hello Zhongyongdaoist

Yes, very nice iain, what it has to do with akasha is another thing entirely, but that there is some relation to traditional concepts is certainly a possible extrapolation, and I would like to point out another traditional concept for which there is ample, what we might call meta-evidence, and that is the concept of "Formal Cause", a concept put forward by Aristotle, but strongly related to Plato's "Doctrine of Ideas".

The interesting thing about the Higgs Boson, other than its reflections at certain power amplitudes, implying the existence of deeper pattern or reflection.
The parallel with Akash tattva is in its nature, in certain ancient tantra (doctrine), the universe is said to emanate from the simple sound vibration that is akash vibrating; it is the fabric which binds everything together. The Higgs boson is said to have been in particle form at the time of the big bang and is now the underlying fabric upon which material nature is bound; A Striking similarity ...
I am not familiar with Aristotle, I must do some more reading, formal cause sounds similar to the idea of karma ... translated into Latin as Carmen, which is now translated into English as blood. Curious are the vaults of history indeed, their very nature reflect upon our own actions as if events were liquid and happenings just ripples on a pond.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Edited October 23, 2014 by iain

[Marblehead]

Yes, very nice iain, what it has to do with akasha is another thing entirely, ...

 

Actually, what it did was prove that Atheism is not a religion. But one must read the words between the lines and dots to be able to recognize and comprehend this.

[iain]

I am sorry Marblehead, I can not resist the temptation to bring theism back to the cutting edge of science.

Actually, what it did was prove that Atheism is not a religion. But one must read the words between the lines and dots to be able to recognize and comprehend this.

No quite right, Atheism is a Greek rooted word with a Sanskrit prefix. That aside Atheism has nothing to do with the Higgs Boson what so ever.

Here is a photo of the epitaph to Nataraja siva infront of one of the stations at the CERN particle accelerator ...

 

 

I wonder why he is there?

Edited October 23, 2014 by iain

[Marblehead]

 

No quite right, Atheism is a Greek rooted word with a Sanskrit prefix.

What about the suffix? It's important too!

[iain]

Where do ism's come from any way?

[Owledge]

Where do ism's come from any way?

Not sure where they come from, but as I understand, they are like the Japanese "dō".

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I am sorry Marblehead, I can not resist the temptation to bring theism back to the cutting edge of science.

No quite right, Atheism is a Greek rooted word with a Sanskrit prefix. That aside Atheism has nothing to do with the Higgs Boson what so ever.

Here is a photo of the epitaph to Nataraja siva infront of one of the stations at the CERN particle accelerator ...

 

 

I wonder why he is there?

 

Certainly not because of this:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26YLehuMydo

 

or wait a moment maybe it is because of that.

 

We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried. Most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita; Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty, and to impress him, takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another . . .

 

Erwin Schroedinger became deeply involved in Indian thought in his later life and wrote:

 

My View of the World

 

A Nobel prize winner, a great man and a great scientist, Erwin Schrödinger has made his mark in physics, but his eye scans a far wider horizon: here are two stimulating and discursive essays which summarize his philosophical views on the nature of the world. Schrödinger's world view, derived from the Indian writings of the Vedanta, is that there is only a single consciousness of which we are all different aspects. He admits that this view is mystical and metaphysical and incapable of logical deduction. But he also insists that this is true of the belief in an external world capable of influencing the mind and of being influenced by it. Schrödinger's world view leads naturally to a philosophy of reverence for life.

 

I enjoyed Werner Heisenberg's:

 

Physics and Philosophy

 

more. Heisenberg had an excellent grasp of the history of Philosophy and Science.

[Marblehead]

Well, I pulled down my “Webster’s” and he had a lot to say about “ism”.

First entry: a distinctive doctrine, cause, or theory.

Second entry: From the Greek: isma & ismos
1a: act: practice: process <criticism> <plagiarism> b: manner of action or behavior characteristic of a (specified) person or thing <animalism> 2a: state: condition: property <barbarianism> b: abnormal state or condition resulting from excess of a (specified) thing <alcoholism> or marked by resemblance to (such) a person or thing <mongolism> 3a: doctrine: theory: cult <Buddhism> b: adherence to a system or a class of principles <stoicism> 4: characteristic or peculiar feature or trait <colloquialism>


Interesting that Buddhism is classified here as a cult.

[Brian]

Let's roll with it. We'll call Atheism a cult along with Buddhism and be done with it!

 

[Marblehead]

Let's roll with it. We'll call Atheism a cult along with Buddhism and be done with it!

 

Sure, Atheism is a cult without a leader.

 

Buddhism might as well have not had a leader because everyone went their own way after the Buddha died.

[iain]

Certainly not because of this:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26YLehuMydo

 

or wait a moment maybe it is because of that.

 

 

Erwin Schroedinger became deeply involved in Indian thought in his later life and wrote:

 

My View of the World

 

 

I enjoyed Werner Heisenberg's:

 

Physics and Philosophy

 

more. Heisenberg had an excellent grasp of the history of Philosophy and Science.

 

Great points Zhongyongdaoist,

 

Best that I do not start a tangent about the damage caused by the calculated mistranslations of vedic works by Max Muller; All of course funded by the ancient occidental establishment of traditional scholars.

Apparently it has been cited by the BBC that this was intentionally done, but I have not personally read the article; so I won't mention that here.

 

The epitaph was given to CERN by the Indian Government in celebration of the work of Fritjof Capra.

 

http://www.fritjofcapra.net/shiva.html

 

Shiva's Cosmic Dance at CERN

On June 18, 2004, an unusual new landmark was unveiled at CERN, the European Center for Research in Particle Physics in Geneva — a 2m tall statue of the Indian deity Shiva Nataraja, the Lord of Dance. The statue, symbolizing Shiva's cosmic dance of creation and destruction, was given to CERN by the Indian government to celebrate the research center's long association with India.

In choosing the image of Shiva Nataraja, the Indian government acknowledged the profound significance of the metaphor of Shiva's dance for the cosmic dance of subatomic particles, which is observed and analyzed by CERN's physicists. The parallel between Shiva's dance and the dance of subatomic particles was first discussed by Fritjof Capra in an article titled "The Dance of Shiva: The Hindu View of Matter in the Light of Modern Physics," published in Main Currents in Modern Thought in 1972. Shiva's cosmic dance then became a central metaphor in Capra's international bestseller The Tao of Physics, first published in 1975 and still in print in over 40 editions around the world.

A special plaque next to the Shiva statue at CERN explains the significance of the metaphor of Shiva's cosmic dance with several quotations from The Tao of Physics. Here is the text of the plaque:

Ananda K. Coomaraswamy, seeing beyond the unsurpassed rhythm, beauty, power and grace of the Nataraja, once wrote of it "It is the clearest image of the activity of God which any art or religion can boast of."

More recently, Fritjof Capra explained that "Modern physics has shown that the rhythm of creation and destruction is not only manifest in the turn of the seasons and in the birth and death of all living creatures, but is also the very essence of inorganic matter," and that "For the modern physicists, then, Shiva's dance is the dance of subatomic matter."

It is indeed as Capra concluded: "Hundreds of years ago, Indian artists created visual images of dancing Shivas in a beautiful series of bronzes. In our time, physicists have used the most advanced technology to portray the patterns of the cosmic dance. The metaphor of the cosmic dance thus unifies ancient mythology, religious art and modern physics."

Edited October 24, 2014 by iain