Desire Body

[Anoesjka]

Hi Anoesjka,

 

Thank you however it really is unmerited!

 

Miss/ma'am, Why do you have doubts every day? (If I may ask and IF you'd like to respond )

 

Could I suggest that you allow yourself "space' or freedom to question cherished beliefs and/or dogmas?

 

To me, something must be verifiable in actuality to be true otherwise everything becomes one gigantic relativistic mess.

 

For example, Who am I?

A name

A body with a brain which functions both autonomically (Breathing, Eye-blinking, Heart pumping) & non-autonomically

My consciousness put together by thought

My past experiences, which if I allow them to, condition my consciousness today

 

Just investigate and see what conclusions you come up with.

 

I send you my well wishes and hope in your investigation(s) actually conclude with concrete answers and don't remain in doubt.

 

Stefos

 

Stefos, Do I perceive some hostility? Please be aware that I'm not hostile towards you, just that I don't share the same views as you.

 

I doubt everything, because I have senses to perceive. Do they perceive what others describe? Maybe, I'm going to have to find that out. I have a brain to think. Will I not use it, because there's so many great brains that have done the thinking before me?

 

I go for the direct, personal experience. I doubt others and myself. I doubt books, religions and dogma. I doubt parents, schools and government.

 

You say you have no doubt, that you are your name, your body and your brain. But if you investigate that notion thoroughly you will see very clearly that you are not that.

 

Peace.

[stefos]

Stefos, Do I perceive some hostility? Please be aware that I'm not hostile towards you, just that I don't share the same views as you.

 

I doubt everything, because I have senses to perceive. Do they perceive what others describe? Maybe, I'm going to have to find that out. I have a brain to think. Will I not use it, because there's so many great brains that have done the thinking before me?

 

I go for the direct, personal experience. I doubt others and myself. I doubt books, religions and dogma. I doubt parents, schools and government.

 

You say you have no doubt, that you are your name, your body and your brain. But if you investigate that notion thoroughly you will see very clearly that you are not that.

 

Peace.

 

Hi Anoesjka,

 

I apologize if you took what I had posted as an attack.

 

It was not meant as such.

 

It actually was meant as an encouragement because, for me, existential questions caused me to lose sleep actually.

 

So, to be very clear with you, In my opinion, you should not have doubts about anything but by having used

discrimination and Naked perception have arrived at a place of deep peace and a clear conscience.

 

Thank you and I wish only good things for you,

Stefos

[stefos]

Hi,

 

I understand you perspective very well and concur fully.....However:

 

If a person remains in doubt every day about every thing, nothing gets accomplished AND a sense of wasting of time arises too.

 

Very simple.

 

I never anywhere stated that one should blindly believe anything.....ever.

Investigation and coming to the best understanding is my policy.

 

Thank you for sharing,

Stefos

[Anoesjka]

Hi Anoesjka,

 

I apologize if you took what I had posted as an attack.

 

It was not meant as such.

 

It actually was meant as an encouragement because, for me, existential questions caused me to lose sleep actually.

 

So, to be very clear with you, In my opinion, you should not have doubts about anything but by having used

discrimination and Naked perception have arrived at a place of deep peace and a clear conscience.

 

Thank you and I wish only good things for you,

Stefos

 

Stefos, no problem. It's easy to get fooled by this shallow medium (the internet), because we have no real facial expressions to share, or hear the tone in our voice. I wasn't sure if you were a little bit angry with me. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

Peace.

[Nungali]

He isnt angry ... just politely judgemental ...

[Songtsan]

Sometimes though, I wish I could truly avoid doubt and develop faith in a single well worn path so that I could just travel along it and see where it got me, instead of constantly vacillating between them and even trying to supersede them. At the same time, this desire is born of fear and even desperation - in thinking that if I don't hurry up and choose I may not 'make it.'  In letting go of this fear, I find myself content to continue questioning. However, I find that doubt could easily disappear along with other things were I to stop thinking. This I do not doubt. What I do doubt is that not thinking will truly show the truth as the sages say.

 

I think that this indicates that I am unsure whether or not that we can directly perceive reality with this naked perception. That we may simply be tricked into believing this...hmmm..

[stefos]

He isnt angry ... just politely judgemental ...

 

No, I'm not being judgemental either!

 

I'm just offering my 2 cents, so to speak, for her to be out of doubts.

 

That's all......Please don't read anything more into it.

 

Sometimes though, I wish I could truly avoid doubt and develop faith in a single well worn path so that I could just travel along it and see where it got me, instead of constantly vacillating between them and even trying to supersede them. At the same time, this desire is born of fear and even desperation - in thinking that if I don't hurry up and choose I make not 'make it.' In letting go of this fear, I find myself content to continue questioning. However, I find that doubt could easily disappear along with other things were I to stop thinking. This I do not doubt. What I do doubt is that not thinking will truly show the truth as the sages say.

 

I think that this indicates that I am unsure whether or not that we can directly perceive reality with this naked perception. That we may simply be tricked into believing this...hmmm..

 

My 2 cents:

When we apply naked perception, we "see" things a lot faster than by just lollygagging around.

 

If we have questions about a particular teaching, then we investigate it....we don't play intellectual games.

We find out and then apply it!

 

If we have questions about anything, we investigate it and come to conclusions, having researched it and by speaking

with people who actually "do" it.

 

Thank you and have a wonderful evening,

Stefos

[Songtsan]

No, I'm not being judgemental either!

 

That's an oxymoronic statement, in that labeling yourself as nonjudgmental is a judgement, as judging is the same as labeling.

 

If you speak, you are judging...it is impossible to speak a single sentence without judging, as this is inherent in mindtalk...All that is in mind is judgmental in that mind weighs and compares, labels and defines.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Songtsan

[stefos]

That's an oxymoronic statement, in that labeling yourself as nonjudgmental is a judgement, as judging is the same as labeling.

 

If you speak, you are judging...it is impossible to speak a single sentence without judging, as this is inherent in mindtalk...All that is in mind is judgmental in that mind weighs and compares, labels and defines.

 

Nice one! True.......however in the relativistic sense, language is a needed medium.

 

I don't want anyone here to misconstrue anything..........Please read my "Buddhist intellectualism" post and you'll understand why.

 

Thank you!

Stefos

[Songtsan]

This is exactly my mindset...we are totally on the same page.

 

I enter into this space because I consider this a major portion of my groupmind.  You guys are all other facets of me and we build each other up...it's like a 'Mind Mountain' that is arising out of the Trueness and the boulders and scree that falls off during the process of the rising are the ideas and concepts which are not tenable...

[Nungali]

This is what I found 'judgemental'

 

Ex. Does one want to dress as a female? No need to unless one is perverted (My viewpoint)

 

In the mystery schools men did dress as women but for a reason ----> spiritual truths to be displayed via external show

 

With this 'pervert' label , the 2nd statement nullifies it ... as long as the reason for the action is considered valid , for the given reason ... but not for others.

 

Actually, it goes beyond judgmental into pre-judgemental (making a decision based on limited knowledge, or before all the knowledge 'is in' ) .... or ; pre judice.

[Songtsan]

This is what I found 'judgemental'

 

 

With this 'pervert' label , the 2nd statement nullifies it ... as long as the reason for the action is considered valid , for the given reason ... but not for others.

 

Actually, it goes beyond judgmental into pre-judgemental (making a decision based on limited knowledge, or before all the knowledge 'is in' ) .... or ; pre judice.

 

On this topic, as I am practicing non-identification with body/mind/ego, I don't see how any of this matters. Endless sea of forms and reifying complexes....Only a reifying ego could label 'something as a some thing' I am moving away from Desire Body (eventually).

[stefos]

This is what I found 'judgemental'

 

 

With this 'pervert' label , the 2nd statement nullifies it ... as long as the reason for the action is considered valid , for the given reason ... but not for others.

 

Actually, it goes beyond judgmental into pre-judgemental (making a decision based on limited knowledge, or before all the knowledge 'is in' ) .... or ; pre judice.

 

My statement stands perfectly valid.

 

Judgement calls must be made due to moral & ethical stances one must make.

 

For example, in Buddhist thought although all things are empty this doesn't mean we act unethical or immoral!

 

Did you read what the Thai Buddhist monk told me about "homosexuality/lesbianism/etc."?

 

A person CAN make up their own system of morals & ethics however this is a cause ----> effect ------> cause world.

 

Causation is the hallmark of existence.

 

I hope you are well,

Stefos

 

On this topic, as I am practicing non-identification with body/mind/ego, I don't see how any of this matters. Endless sea of forms and reifying complexes....Only a reifying ego could label 'something as a some thing' I am moving away from Desire Body (eventually).

 

Non-identification doesn't mean we are immoral or unethical.

 

Again, your worldview dictates what is moral & immoral....ethical & unethical.

 

We are not islands but are interrelated with everything hence the term Universe.

 

Just my view.....take care

Stefos

[Nungali]

A person CAN make up their own system of morals & ethics however this is a cause ----> effect ------> cause world.

 

 

 

Who is making up their 'own' system of morals and ethics ?

 

https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Transexual%20shamanism

[stefos]

Who is making up their 'own' system of morals and ethics ?

 

https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Transexual%20shamanism

 

You are using Wikipedia as a source for cultures embracing alternative lifestyles as if they always did.

This just isn't the case.

 

Just because these cultures now acknowledge LGBT's doesn't mean they always did.

 

Many modern authors, for example, want to use the ancient Greek culture as being "Gay embracing." They say that the red pottery found in Greece from Ancient Athens showing older men "fondling" younger men was "normal" back then and openly accepted.

The fact is that it was not and the older men who did this to younger men were prohibited from voting in the democratic sessions and were not allowed to own land.

 

Another type of example: The Chinese were originally Monotheistic, worshipping Shang-Ti/Shang-Di, and were not polytheistic nor were they syncretistic.

They adopted Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism....those religions were not native to the Chinese but were later developments.

Now they are communists who give token respect to Buddhism, Taoism & Confucianism.

 

Please be careful to fully contextualize how cultures across the globe came accept the current standards they now do.

To do this requires a LOT of research, not just a rip out of Wikipedia and/or Google and "there we have it," justifying one's position.

 

Thank you,

Stefos

 

P.S. A person posted a video on youtube quoting ancient Greek Athenian laws regarding the Greek perspective on homosexuality......here it is:

Edited October 26, 2014 by stefos

[stefos]

As I mentioned earlier, this "lil bit of this and that" mindset in typical of the new age movement:

Grabbing at everything but embracing nothing

 

It does take time to intellectually understand the viewpoint of a particular spirituality or any "topic" as it were, even if a spirituality touts itself as being "Sudden" as opposed to "Gradual"

 

Stefos

[Nungali]

You are using Wikipedia as a source for cultures embracing alternative lifestyles as if they always did.

This just isn't the case.

 

Just because these cultures now acknowledge LGBT's doesn't mean they always did.

 

 

 

Please be careful to fully contextualize how cultures across the globe came accept the current standards they now do.

To do this requires a LOT of research, not just a rip out of Wikipedia and/or Google and "there we have it," justifying one's position.

 

Thank you,

Stefos

 

Oh , come ON now ! Did you look at ANY of those papers ... I use that reference as a short cut to show my opinion is backed up by varied anthropological research on old cultures that dont have a modern mind-set.

 

or would you prefer I set out an analysis of all of this ?

 

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[Nungali]

because I am forcing it into a direction he doesnt like ... I think it is called clutching at straws.

[stefos]

You know what? I AM passing judgement and have every right to do so, both as a U.S. Army combat vet and as a citizen of the U.S. and furthermore as a human being.

 

Everyone passes a judgement....sorry to bother you about it....Even YOU do.

 

A judgement is different than being judgemental: the infamous "I am better then him/her" statement...

 

I am categorically not being judgemental on the person....if you noticed.....but upon a school of thought/quasi-spirituality called "The New Age movement."

 

I also simply reinforced, what you stated in your post, in my post.

 

Finally, the so-called "Desire Body" is used in New Age circles but it's actual roots are in Eastern thought such as Advaita Vedanta & Vajrayana & Dzogchen and Mahamudra as well as Theosophy & Anthroposophy.

 

Thank you for trying to throw me under a "guilty as charged" bus,

I don't appreciate that.

 

Stefos

[stefos]

because I am forcing it into a direction he doesnt like ... I think it is called clutching at straws.

 

Hi Nungali,

 

This thread was originally about the desire body and not any Hetero/Homosexual stances I or you or anyone else has/had.

 

I'm not clutching at anything.....You have not examined anything I've presented as a rebuttal to your stance.

 

I refuse to get into any more polemics.........I'm done playing your game.

 

This thread's title is Desire Body, not sex.

 

Thank you and be well!

Stefos

[Nungali]

"You know what? I AM passing judgement and have every right to do so, both as a U.S. Army combat vet and as a citizen of the U.S. and furthermore as a human being."

 

 

Okay fine ... I just said you were being judgemental ... I wasnt saying you didnt have a right to be judgemental ... and I think calling it perverse was close to prejudice but ... whatever.

 

 

"Everyone passes a judgement....sorry to bother you about it....Even YOU do."

 

of course

 

" A judgement is different than being judgemental: the infamous "I am better then him/her" statement...

 

I am categorically not being judgemental on the person....if you noticed.....but upon a school of thought/quasi-spirituality called "The New Age movement."

 

Disregarding the rest above ... I still dont get this ... I mean, I , more than anyone maybe, could make those comments about the 'New Age' and have been very judgmental about that too ( but not too prejudiced, as I have seen the damage that mind set can do) but where has this post's title or first post anything to do with that ?

 

Rosicrucians and the linked article to a work of Max Heindel (1865 - 1919 ) can hardly be called New Age and you yourself ;

 

" Finally, the so-called "Desire Body" is used in New Age circles but it's actual roots are in Eastern thought such as Advaita Vedanta & Vajrayana & Dzogchen and Mahamudra as well as Theosophy & Anthroposophy. "

 

These last two are in a similar tradition of Max Heindel , him and Steiner may have been initiates of the same Rosicrucian Body.

 

So I dont understand where all this New Age stuff comes from, except where you equated the use of the post title and that term to new age yourself ? ? ?

 

(I think I broke the quote box )

Edited October 27, 2014 by Nungali

[Songtsan]

Yeah, I should have researched the term Desire Body before I made the thread...I get 'thought insertions' from some place and that was one of them and when I googled it, one of the first hits was that link I posted and I just went from there...basically pranic sheath composed of desire emanations/objects....

[stefos]

Yeah, I should have researched the term Desire Body before I made the thread...I get 'thought insertions' from some place and that was one of them and when I googled it, one of the first hits was that link I posted and I just went from there...basically pranic sheath composed of desire emanations/objects....

 

Hi Songtsan,

 

A suggestion for the future:

 

I think it's best to ask one question at a time, get clarity or others views upon the issue and then move onward to a deeper level if you want and/or need it.

 

My perception of your posts has been this kind of nebulous cloud of free thinking....Perhaps you intend this but

it's confusing for a reading to ascertain just what it is your asking!

 

Granted judgement calls must be made due to morals and ethics....Being judgemental is another matter altogether.

To my mind, the 2 are different and not the same...qualitatively different.

 

We have all been judgemental as some point in our lives, the point is to understand another's perspective not necessarily agree with it and definitely not be judgemental any longer.

 

My thoughts sir.......Have a great evening and a beautiful tomorrow,

Stefos

[Songtsan]

Hi Songtsan,

 

A suggestion for the future:

 

I think it's best to ask one question at a time, get clarity or others views upon the issue and then move onward to a deeper level if you want and/or need it.

 

My perception of your posts has been this kind of nebulous cloud of free thinking....Perhaps you intend this but

it's confusing for a reading to ascertain just what it is your asking!

 

Granted judgement calls must be made due to morals and ethics....Being judgemental is another matter altogether.

To my mind, the 2 are different and not the same...qualitatively different.

 

We have all been judgemental as some point in our lives, the point is to understand another's perspective not necessarily agree with it and definitely not be judgemental any longer.

 

My thoughts sir.......Have a great evening and a beautiful tomorrow,

Stefos

 

I enjoy the scatter-brained approach, which I view as randomized, multi-tasking, approaching the origin in a spiraling, snaky route- serpentine, never a straight route. It's always been my method. Straightforward approaches, while they may seem more efficient from the get-go, are not my style. Even if it takes me longer the way I go, I am both practicing non-attachment, and adhering to Saivic principles. Shiva as riding Shesh-naga, a giant snake, who carries him around while he meditates, eyes half-lidded, is the way I do things, following my guide, lover, and other half, Shakti. This has been my mainstay since 1997 or so, maybe earlier even though I didn't know it. It's a fun path, and enjoyable.

[stefos]

I enjoy the scatter-brained approach, which I view as randomized, multi-tasking, approaching the origin in a spiraling, snaky route- serpentine, never a straight route. It's always been my method. Straightforward approaches, while they may seem more efficient from the get-go, are not my style. Even if it takes me longer the way I go, I am both practicing non-attachment, and adhering to Saivic principles. Shiva as riding Shesh-naga, a giant snake, who carries him around while he meditates, eyes half-lidded, is the way I do things, following my guide, lover, and other half, Shakti. This has been my mainstay since 1997 or so, maybe earlier even though I didn't know it. It's a fun path, and enjoyable.

 

Hello,

 

Thank you for sharing a question enough to post it online!

 

My intentions were only for the best and to get you out of any hellish psychological things you were/are in.

We all have our perspectives.

 

My respect and love go toward you........My contribution to this post is done.

Be well and have a great night.

Stefos