Everyone owns Everything

[iain]

Songtsan, I understand where you were coming from in your original post. I assume you had an insight into the reality of things for you, and wanted to share . In my opinion, this Vedanta viewpoint is really not that far different than how people understand and interpret the Tao. I quoted in another topic on this forum from Hsueh-Feng: 'The whole world is you, yet you keep thinking there is something else'...kinda the same thing?

Alex

 

Nice post The Tao Of Alex,

 

I feel just a little more precision necessary; That this view held by Songtsan, be similar to the Advaita viewpoint of Advaita Vedanta; as opposed to Dvaita or any other of the many schools Vedanta.

A rather complicated set of systems, worthy of study if one has the time. I would urge Songtsan to consider doing so; especially as he has expressed an interest in Sanskrit; this would help channel his apparent wayward energy.

Edited October 21, 2014 by iain

[Anoesjka]

It is our ego that puts up the boundaries. But is not every goal of cultivation the reaching of enlightenment? What else is enlightenment but to let go of that construction we call ego? (And in the end the realization that we are indeed one. And though I agree that for us, unenlightened, the fire is still hot and pain hurts, it's not said that that is the ultimate truth.)

[Marblehead]

Y'all gotta' leave my ego alone too.

[Songtsan]

Hey guys, haven't had time to read the replies as I am at work, but I have come to the same conclusion that I always do in the end...that is 'know nothing' - I.e. I again became involved in nonsensical mental chatter.

 

All views are relative to perspectives, which are infinite in nature.

 

I could argue from any side or stance...

 

I again will stop wasting time/energy on mental confabulations and get right back to cultivating...

 

If I have wasted anyones time/energy I apologize.

 

I will attempt to stop making scurilous (I think that's the right word) posts and only post important questions

[Marblehead]

That was important. And the only people who's time was spent with you were those who wanted to speak to the topic.

 

Discussion is good. It helps us establish and test what we think is true or valid.

[Nungali]

Okay, I can accept that. We are simply caretakers. But I do take very good care of what has been entrusted to me.

 

In one way of thinking, the first concept leads to the second . I will look after something better if I have come to believe it isnt mine and I am just looking after it.

 

But for some, it seems it is the other way around

 

Then there is the major paradigm (it so seems, in western society) ... I claim ownership ... therefore I can (ab)use it however I want ! .... even when it is something we are all supposed to be sharing ... like the air and water.

[Nungali]

No I wasn't insulted I was having fun...but multi-tasking so honestly not taking everything in...I was doing all kinds of activities at the time I wrote that stuff so I probably didn't pay as much attention as I should. I am a typical ADHD child.

 

I will look over everything more closely and respond more appropriately in a day or so...probably in the end I will admit defeat...I was just blowing off steam

 

Man! .... That was a 3 minute rest !

 

Maybe take longer than that next time

[Marblehead]

In one way of thinking, the first concept leads to the second . I will look after something better if I have come to believe it isnt mine and I am just looking after it.

 

But for some, it seems it is the other way around

 

Then there is the major paradigm (it so seems, in western society) ... I claim ownership ... therefore I can (ab)use it however I want ! .... even when it is something we are all supposed to be sharing ... like the air and water.

Yeah, I had to go deep when I made that post because I do believe in legal ownership. I own my home. No one can take it from me as long as I continue to pay property taxes on it and no one else has any rights to do anything with my property.

 

But this property is going to last a lot longer than I am so basically I am just taking care of it while I am living here. Someone else will have that responsibility when I die. We can't take it with us, you know.

[Nungali]

I think the gist of what I was saying was that we can all appreciate the beauty of the myriad things around us as if we owned them all, without actually needing to possess them. Beautiful women/men, cars/houses, boats, mountains and whatnot.

 

Here! Stab 'your ownership' with this :

 

 

 

be content and appreciative of being alive ! And 'being in ' and appreciative of the beauty of the myriad things around us, beautiful women/men, cars/houses, boats, mountains and whatnot but not having to possess or 'own' any of it.

 

Interaction without concepts of ownership is something I have found far superior for exploration, enjoyment and new experience.

[Marblehead]

Yep, I can look at beautiful women all day long and not want to own any of them. (Especially if they are wearing a bikini or a short skirt.)

[Nungali]

Y'all gotta' leave my ego alone too.

 

tsk tsk .... more 'wayward energy'

[Nungali]

Yeah, I had to go deep when I made that post because I do believe in legal ownership. I own my home. No one can take it from me as long as I continue to pay property taxes on it and no one else has any rights to do anything with my property.

 

But this property is going to last a lot longer than I am so basically I am just taking care of it while I am living here. Someone else will have that responsibility when I die. We can't take it with us, you know.

 

I own my home, we always paid property tax and rates ... the judicial system says our land title papers are valid ... but the government is still trying to take it ... and refuses to stop doing that.

 

I had a boss who had all that too . One day they tell him an overpass is going across the top of the valley and a pylon is going where his house is ... bad luck ... and by the way we assess the value of the land and thats all you get, based on our own assessment (apparently not even what it was worth to the overpass project ... more like what block of land is after they put concrete pillars on it and a 4 lane highway over the top ).

 

I know a guy in NY state where he might loose his land too ... due to 'expansive rezoning' and his rates going through the roof (he is retired on a fixed income - fixed to the land rates)

 

Belief in ownership doesnt matter at times .... one's gotta fight !

 

I have no legal proof that I personally own my cabin or the land it is on ... so some ( not officials, just ..... 'renegades' let's call them) have suggested they could take it off me and have it for themselves .....

 

I said to them " Smarter and tougher types than you have tried in the past ... and I am still here, after 25 years, I can fight on the physical level ( with or without weapons), legal, psychological, mental and magical ... are you going to take the first shot or would you prefer a pre-emptive strike from me first ? ..... or perhaps you might want to forget all that and sit in the garden and have some tea?

 

[Jetsun]

Ram Das and some of his rich devotee friends would often try to give their guru Neem Keroli Baba money as he was known to wander around India penniless with only a blanket to keep himself warm, his response was always along the lines of "why do I need money? I already own all the money in America"

[Marblehead]

I had a boss who

Yeah, I know what you are talking about. Screw the individual for the greater good of the wealthy. One of the things that led me to become and Anarchist.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Marblehead

[Songtsan]

So, having skimmed through the responses, I should clarify that I would never go and take someone else's objects that they were in possession of. I don't think any one owns any thing, yet we temporarily hold on to them. I do think that every one owns every thing.

 

On the whole, the collective is what owns; on an individual basis, it is the fragmented individual which holds possession of.

 

I must admit I have always held Marxist views...

 

My views are constantly changing. So are the objects we hold. So, as nothing stays the same, nothing is as it was, there are no concrete objects. Imagine that I hold a fist full of sand. I could say that I own it, that I have claimed it, but it will be running through my fingers the whole time.

 

I always keep the opposite view in mind so that I can function in duality.

, without incurring opposing karma, I.e. action/reaction.

 

Really the purpose of the original statement was to limit envy and greed, grasping and seeking by reminding myself that I already am those things I seek, including body forms.

 

By embracing all the objects I perceive as my own self, which implies possession of those things as me and my own in the moment, I feel a sense of peace and completion.

 

Vicarious enjoyment is based on this.

 

I can enjoy without possessing, own without having.

 

All ideas are mine.

 

All form objects that I perceive are mine...you may 'own' the car, but the percept is mine and mine alone...

 

So we share ownership in this way

 

It is simply a mental trick which leads to bliss.

 

If I see a nice Audi with spinning rims, I 'pretend' that it's mine and remove the veils of envy and attachment. Imagining that you already have the things you want, and are already the person you wish to be creates that bliss reward.

 

So I am wealthy beyond my means...

 

I have millions of dollars in the bank.

 

I take that underlying reifying thought construct which defines me and make it already achieved. This cuts away that constant feeling of incompleteness which pervades my moment.

 

In the end this is all mind. I seek to go beyond this, which is why I take this view-trick lightly..

[Marblehead]

Well, okay, if it helps you through your day. But still ...

[Nungali]

I saw an interesting doco on 'psychological boundaries' ... they got people to do 'unusual things' to others and secretly filmed it.

 

One guy was sitting next to people in a mall and interacting with them; things like sitting very close and reading the newspaper the were reading. Some moved away, shielded their paper, gave him weird looks. ignored him and acted awkward , etc.

 

Then he tried it on and old Indian guy, he looked at him smiled, and opened the paper out fully so the other could get a full view. After a while, the Indian guy wanted to turn the page ; "Have you finished that page yet?"

 

"Yes ... thank you." Then the Indian guy turned to the next page and spread it out for them to read. After a bit he stopped and looked at the other; " Where are you from? " Then he explained that he was from a poor village in India, in the square some men sit around to read the newspaper, the first lot read one double page and then pass it on to the next lot and they do the same until all the pages have gone around.

 

One of the best 'treatises' I have read on 'ownership' is from the novel 'Man Friday' (the story of Robinson Crusoe but told from Friday's perspective ... Oh, its a must read!) ... the Chapter; 'In which Master teaches me the meaning of 'Yours' and 'Mine' - fantastic!

 

[ The story is told in past tense to 'Friday's' tribe on his eventual return - after this part of the story is a break and the tribe plays a game of 'Yours and mine' ... it hilarious but also exposes many inherent dangers to their established and time proven system ... they eventually abandon the concept as dangerous and even a sickness. ]

[Marblehead]

That caused me thought. I think it is safe to say that the less one has the more likely they are to share with others but the more one has the less likely they are to share.

 

Perhaps possession is a sickness afterall. (But maybe not.)

[doc benway]

If you are truly immortal, then you know that this place is simply a big play pen. All forms are illusions and we all inter-exist within each other. Therefore, we are all ourselves and everyone else!

 

Therefore, we all co-own everything!

 

So, therefore, anything I touch is mine (and yours too!)

 

That's how easy it is to let go of objects.

 

Realize that we have all been born before and will exist again in multiple frequencies.

 

This is endlessness.

 

And in that genuine recognition of our immortality we see the pain of others as our pain and would do nothing intentionally to cause anyone anguish. The possessing is no longer important, the love and compassion is. That genuine experience is a game changer.

[Songtsan]

Also, think of this:

 

If a child (4 years old) that you don't know is walking down the street, and has just found a cool and very sharp knife that someone drops (finders keepers), would you let him go along his way, thinking "It's his because he found it fair and square.." or would you do the right thing and take it from him so he doesn't hurt him self with it?

 

There are child-like adults in this world with expensive toys (like missiles and machine guns), who, while technically in ownership of such things, should be relieved of such things because they are arrogant child-like idiots in big-man-pants..

 

This is why it takes a village to raise a child.

 

This is why certain gluttons should be made to give their toys away so that all the kids in the sand box can play...

 

It depends on balance of course...

 

If the trends keep going the way they are, and the greedy kids suck up all the resources, I expect that things could get ugly.

 

This is why I encourage people to take a shared view of ownership of things...

 

However, should I become overbalanced in my fervor, then I too am an idiot.

 

It's about balance...

 

Power corrupts, unless it is held by the wise...