Zhan Zhuang - Suggestions for Short Practice

[Aetherous]

Interesting...I will think about that further, because right now upon first reading, it's not completely clear to me.

However, from at least two other legitimate Daoist sources, it's been taught that you actually do tuck the tailbone forward (literally a contradiction to what you are stating is an absolute truth), and that it is for a specific purpose. For instance, the tailbone being backward represents animal nature or our drives gaining control over us, and when we tuck it forward (and also with the huiyin closing) we become more human and able to control our drives or our mind (a similar mechanism is above, with the tongue touching the palate).

[Taomeow]

Interesting...I will think about that further, because right now upon first reading, it's not completely clear to me.

 

However, from at least two other legitimate Daoist sources, it's been taught that you actually do tuck the tailbone forward (literally a contradiction to what you are stating is an absolute truth), and that it is for a specific purpose. For instance, the tailbone being backward represents animal nature or our drives gaining control over us, and when we tuck it forward (and also with the huiyin closing) we become more human and able to control our drives or our mind (a similar mechanism is above, with the tongue touching the palate).

 

Animals trained for circus have different postures from animals in the wild.

 

 

The idea that humans ought to be trained like circus animals for the purpose of being controllable by the bosses and not, god forbid, free is as old as civilization. You can tell what's real taoism and what is the ruling overlords' agenda by the former always asking for the opposite of the latter. In taoism, you are taught to control yourself from the inside. In most other modalities, you are taught to be controllable from the outside. Believe it or not, posture that is drilled in has everything to do with which route the mind will choose. In Ken Cohen's book on qigong, there's a picture comparing the posture of ZZ to the posture of a soldier in the army, and there's a very good explanation of the differences. Both involve discipline and control, but the body is arranged and used in completely different, opposite ways, because ZZ trains your self-control toward your internally set goals, while the army pose closes you to yourself and opens you to external control.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Taomeow

[dwai]

My teacher has a few practices on his website that might be of interest to you. They are under the meditation section...

 

You could also do the single form practice...they are sort of standing practices but not static however.

 

http://www.gbolarts.com/pages/notes_archive/tc-archive.html

 

These are very gentle yet very powerful.

Edited October 24, 2014 by dwai

[soaring crane]

only have a moment but I want to to jump in and clarify something -- when I really practice standing still, ZZ, i'm not really still. I was taught that the pelvis is always in motion, softly, so subtle as to be imperceivable to an observer, and that movement moves migmen through the yin and yang cycles that Tm mentions, and the wave motion that was mentioned previously. Lam Kam Chüen does this, too, but doesn't talk about it or write about it. It isn't really the tailbone, it's weilü that is active. The idea of the tailbone is just a way of making it easier to grasp, and integrate.

 

You can do the same thing by pulling the pelvic bone upward via the abdominal muscles (as a training method, a way of activating the motion, but not as a permanent situation).

 

This is one of the htings that, as Chang indicated, really goes too far for text descriptions

[Taomeow]

only have a moment but I want to to jump in and clarify something -- when I really practice standing still, ZZ, i'm not really still. I was taught that the pelvis is always in motion, softly, so subtle as to be imperceivable to an observer, and that movement moves migmen through the yin and yang cycles that Tm mentions, and the wave motion that was mentioned previously. Lam Kam Chüen does this, too, but doesn't talk about it or write about it. It isn't really the tailbone, it's weilü that is active. The idea of the tailbone is just a way of making it easier to grasp, and integrate.

 

You can do the same thing by pulling the pelvic bone upward via the abdominal muscles (as a training method, a way of activating the motion, but not as a permanent situation).

 

This is one of the htings that, as Chang indicated, really goes too far for text descriptions

 

When I used to stand ZZ, I found the correct dynamics by doing a funky exercise on the side -- you can safely try this at home. Take a raw egg and stand it on end.

 

Don't use the glue. You have to find the subtle balance -- it will be looking for it via those very tiny motions in its "tailbone" SC is talking about -- but that's stage one. Stage two -- perfect balance -- is what stops the external motions completely, however subtle -- and that's when the internal motion kicks in.

[thelerner]

I'm sure if my old Aikido teacher saw me doing ZZ now he'd roll his eyes and make a half dozen corrections. But I try.

When I do ZZ I like listening to Rawn Clarks Archaeous series of meditations. They're an elemental series that stack the body, earth=leg region, stomach=water, lungs=air, head=fire (I prefer electrical awareness). They're 15 minutes long and make ZZ go by much faster.

 

In the long run they may be just a training tool/crutch, but for me they've been a very good one, and as you progress deeper they get pretty profound. And what the heck, your standing around doing nothing anyway.

[soaring crane]

This thread is a pretty good example of why authentic zhan zhuang is a deeper subject than is usually thought. BUT standing meditation is a great practice that anyone can do and doesn't need to be complicated at all

[Uroboros]

Taoist fundamentals. The underlying theory and the practical applications and implications. The beauty of taoist arts and sciences is that nothing contradicts anything else -- it's a unified system. If what you (the generic you, not you personally) do for MA contradicts what you do for qigong, it means the fundamental premises of taoism are being ignored -- or, in a more typical case, just not known to the teacher. This non-knowledge is transmitted to the student, in the form of incorrect use of the body. Hence so many contradicting instructions flying around the noosphere, of which 95% follow The Great Law of the Internet -- "95% of everything on the internet is shit."

 

So, what I said about the tailbone is not "for martial arts" because it is based on the fundamental taoist principle of yin-yang which is built into the human body and its kinesthetics. Yin and yang are stillness and motion, containing, to boot, stillness within movement and movement within stillness, accordingly ("the eye of the fish" in the taiji diagram, which is not called The Great Ultimate for nothing -- it expresses everything, not qigong or martial arts but being and nonbeing in all their possible manifestations.)

 

The human body "opens and closes" like tao. ZZ is a "closed" externally, "open" internally posture. To accomplish its goal, i.e. the opening of the inner realms, you use the yin principle on the level of "subtle energetics" and this is accomplished by providing the correct yin structure at the level of gross anatomy. The major regulator of the opening-closing of "subtle energetics" is the mingmen, at the back and center of the human body. Anatomically, it is the area of the spine with major nerves connecting to all major internal organs of the body. Now, the somatic awareness of this opening-closing master gate, known as The Gate of Life, is generally impossible to acquire unless the area is first brought into awareness as capable of opening and closing.

 

THIS is accomplished with the aid and guidance of the tailbone. The moving of the tailbone forward opens the mingmen, the pointing down keeps it in a position that can be likened to the "mysterious border" separating yin and yang, ready to go either way without committing; and pointing it slightly back closes the mingmen. In MA, this is used to return and store the qi before the next move. (Also in correct walking, when the tailbone is subtly back-forward mobile at every step, like a fish tail.) In ZZ, pointing it slightly back closes the whole yin structure, closes the mingmen so there's no leaking of qi and it can start accumulating and moving inside. If it's kept open, i.e. with the tailbone pointing forward, it will leak. In fact, it leaks continuously from that point because Westerners sleep on soft surfaces -- but that's for another discussion... the point being that this is part of the fundamentals and applicable to everything -- MA, qigong, walking, sleeping, sitting, or as the sage put it, "to be human, you need to master four things -- stand like a human, walk like a human, sit like a human, lie down like a human."

 

This is fantastic! TM, you have explained something I have been noticing concerning the MingMen. Not to put things too off topic, this region moves with breathing, opening/closing, and should be doing the same during sex. The orgasmic reflex as reich said.

 

During reverse breathing, we switch when we open and close.

 

When I work with sexual energy during sex, the closing of the MingMen is what truly moves that substance inwards. If my MingMen is open, say by bending forward, its a struggle. If it is closed, like in yoga's cobra posture, its near effortless.

 

I do not have much experience with ZZ, I wanted to point out the wide applications of this fundamental..

 

This is a good thread

 

Thank you

[soaring crane]

One last thing before bed... The subtle movement I described dissolves at some point into the purely energetic. It's a progression. The smaller the physical movement the bigger the energetic. Like observing a mountain from base to peak. The less base there is, the more light you see. But the mountain is there even when all you can is sky. I'm sure Taomeow can describe it more competently, and I hope she does :-)

[Aetherous]

Animals trained for circus have different postures from animals in the wild.

 

 

The idea that humans ought to be trained like circus animals for the purpose of being controllable by the bosses and not, god forbid, free is as old as civilization. You can tell what's real taoism and what is the ruling overlords' agenda by the former always asking for the opposite of the latter. In taoism, you are taught to control yourself from the inside. In most other modalities, you are taught to be controllable from the outside. Believe it or not, posture that is drilled in has everything to do with which route the mind will choose. In Ken Cohen's book on qigong, there's a picture comparing the posture of ZZ to the posture of a soldier in the army, and there's a very good explanation of the differences. Both involve discipline and control, but the body is arranged and used in completely different, opposite ways, because ZZ trains your self-control toward your internally set goals, while the army pose closes you to yourself and opens you to external control.

 

It's for the purpose of controlling your own drives, rather than being controlled by them. Just like your bolded sentence. No need to say that legitimate Daoist lineages are not "real taoism"...just because you've been taught slightly different.

[Taomeow]

It's for the purpose of controlling your own drives, rather than being controlled by them. Just like your bolded sentence. No need to say that legitimate Daoist lineages are not "real taoism"...just because you've been taught slightly different.

 

I don't mean "real" to stand for "superior," and "influenced by other modalities" to mean "inferior." That's a matter of personal taste, opportunities of exposure, and personal instincts. What I mean is, classical taoism "as is," indigenous and basic, taoism that, among other things, does not view "animal" as inferior to "human" (this view is a late acquisition). In other words, taoism as it existed when it flowed smoothly out of shamanism but before it was incorporated into the overall "Chinese religion and culture" comprised of folk, taoist, Confucian and Buddhist. Taoism within this tradition of the overall "Chinese religion and culture" has its noble enough place, and in fact I have been taught within a Buddhist influenced taoist school (not the most heavily influenced though). But its teacher teaches just so that you naturally focus on the "structurally taoist" parts -- he does not negate or deny the rest, he just happens to de-emphasize the "coats of paint" on top of the structure, so to speak. This doesn't mean I hate every color painted on top, only that I don't choose my engine by the prettiness of the paint on its surface. You can be exposed to real taoism under a coat of Buddhist or Confucian or whatever paint and still get the real deal -- provided you focus on other things than this coat of paint on top. Hope I'm making sense.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I too don't feel like contradicting too much too directly, which is why I wrote and then deleted my post in response to HE's paradigm. (Harmonious Emptiness, if you are reading this -- in that deleted post I objected to every single point of your instructions with the exception of "the waist is relaxed." Sorry... I'll make it up to you, I agree with you more often than not on most occasions. )

 

Well, thank you for your consideration Taomeow. I am interested to read your comments on these pointers. I mean what's the use of shamelessly displaying my ignorance if not to find out what's "right."

 

I should note too, though, that when I apply these pointers, it's all done rather slightly. I feel what I'm doing but someone looking at me would only see a very straight posture.

 

Interesting that you say straight up and down is best, because the adjustment made is mostly changing the "less aware" posture to the "aware" posture, if that makes sense. The pelvis is not really pushed forward, but to move from the posture that occurs without zhan zhuang, the muscles move it these directions, though not to the other extreme (for lack of a better word).

 

 

(edit: and a sincere disclaimer that none of this is meant to be confrontational, again. So far this disclaimer is still good, though I see it being used "snarkly" in the not too distant future and becoming worthless..)

Edited October 25, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Gerard]

Try incorporating hyper slow movement in your routine. If you have 20 min available, then down 10 min to a deep horse stance posture with arms embracing tree and up 10 min. Build it up because this exercise is very, very tough on the mind. You can start with one minute down and one up.

 

Use a timer to help you with this (and also avoid cheating).

 

Another variation would be going down and up doing pistol squats if you can manage doing them or near pistol, no need to go that deep. It works wonders on the Wood and Water meridians (and corresponding organs), which are typically bogged with mental detritus.

 

Note: Borrowed from the book "Opening the Dragon Gate."

 

Edited October 25, 2014 by Gerard

[Taomeow]

Well, thank you for your consideration Taomeow. I am interested to read your comments on these pointers. I mean what's the use of shamelessly displaying my ignorance if not to find out what's "right."

 

I should note too, though, that when I apply these pointers, it's all done rather slightly. I feel what I'm doing but someone looking at me would only see a very straight posture.

 

Interesting that you say straight up and down is best, because the adjustment made is mostly changing the "less aware" posture to the "aware" posture, if that makes sense. The pelvis is not really pushed forward, but to move from the posture that occurs without zhan zhuang, the muscles move it these directions, though not to the other extreme (for lack of a better word).

LOL, "displaying ignorance" is Laozi 101 -- he claimed to have been a master of ignorance (his only direct claim to fame as I recall. "Everybody is so bright, I alone am dumb as a doorknob, thick as a brick," or something to that effect.) Taoism is huge, someone is bound to know something you (and me) don't no matter how much you (or me) know. No shame in that. I can only wonder how much nonsense I might say before I find out that it's nonsense, but I view this as a learning curve. And I think in that cheesy enough but somewhat addictive show, the best find was this novel way to say "I love you" -- "you know nothing, John Snow."

 

With this in mind -- here's point by point:

 

"grip the ground with your toes" -- no, all manner of tense stances are a legacy of hard MA. Clawing the ground, in addition to creating and maintaining tension, closes off the Bubbling Well point at the sole, which it is very important to keep open in ZZ. You "stand like a tree" because you actually sprout "roots" into the ground, the average tree really stands like a mirror image of itself, tripled in size or more, if you could see the underground part. That's what you're trying to accomplish, and those points open the line of communication between the visible upper and invisible lower part of the tree, help you grow roots. Also, bringing these points into awareness is the best way to find the correct position for the knees, which is point next.

 

"flex the knees (knees should not be further forward than the toes)" -- for the horse stance, but in ZZ the knees are kept unlocked but not flexed. This is subtle enough -- to just stand with knees unlocked without "doing" anything with them or to them -- but an even subtler adjustment is to let the natural spiral shape of the leg bones (and they are spirals -- the tibia and the fibula -- just like the rest) extend this outward-spiraling vector to the kneecaps... say if your kneecaps had eyes, the left one would be looking to the left but without turning the "face," so to speak, and the right one, to the right. So, unlocked, and slightly "looking" away from each other.

 

"bring the buttocks in and up" -- no, this is muscle tension again, which is the opposite of what you're after -- and this will lock the qua. You want to keep it unlocked.

 

"chest is brought in" -- just relaxed, not in. In is for motion.

 

"shoulders relax and a bit forward" -- not forward, down, dropped. I was told that the position of the shoulders is found by imagining that you hold little, round, very hot buns under your armpits -- not too loosely, not too tightly. If you bring the shoulders forward, they will fall out. If you don't drop the shoulders, you'll burn yourself.

 

"chin down" -- like you said, it's all done rather slightly, but still, the position of the chin is "in" -- slightly - the word is "tucked" I believe -- toward the body, not toward the ground.

 

pointing up the crown of the head -- this is correct. I would also point out that no tension or intention is involved in this pointing, I like the image "suspended from the crown on a string from heaven" for the head.

 

Oh, and you don't want to lower your eyes. And you don't want to do anything with your lower dantien. ZZ is a wuwei type meditation, you just do nothing at all.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks for the response.

 

I would suggest, imho, that perhaps Wuji standing, while having it's energetic benefits, can be balanced with the more yang training in order to build a strong external structure as well. Yes, these points are made more for combat and motion, but would it not help to accustom the muscles with the structure used in motion, while it's easy to note them - in stillness. This way they might be quickly engaged in appropriate situations.

[soaring crane]

With the arms and shoulders, I find it much more effective to simply turn the elbows outward. This opens the armpits and instantly increases qi flow. The actual motion occurs in the shoulder joint. At first the palms will face to the rear, but then you turn the palms inward, careful not to close the armpits or pull the elbows inward or point them to the rear, and.... Wuji :-)

[Taomeow]

Thanks for the response.

 

I would suggest, imho, that perhaps Wuji standing, while having it's energetic benefits, can be balanced with the more yang training in order to build a strong external structure as well. Yes, these points are made more for combat and motion, but would it not help to accustom the muscles with the structure used in motion, while it's easy to note them - in stillness. This way they might be quickly engaged in appropriate situations.

 

Well, according to my taiji teacher, you can stop and meditate in any settled, yin position in taiji forms -- but you don't stop in any of the unsettled, yang positions. How do you meditate while executing the tornado kick? -- or the double jump kick? -- these are explicit examples but each and every other yang move is similar in that it is a transitional, and therefore unstable state. Internal movement never stops in taiji -- a settled outer position lasts for as long as the inner movement completes itself, but you actually never stop even if you appear stopped externally -- unless you decide that you are going to stop doing the form and meditate instead at a particular point. This can be made extremely hard -- and believe me, the hard way to do yin is way harder than the hard way to do yang, if the goal is to challenge yourself for the purpose of building up strength. The Chen Tigers in particular like to torture students during workshops by suddenly freezing the whole scene for half an hour (I've heard horror stories about an hour of that too from taiji classmates) in a random position -- occasionally a very difficult one to maintain, forcing you to stand not just like a tree but like this tree:

 

Edited October 26, 2014 by Taomeow

[soaring crane]

Awesome :-)

 

I do that in my groups, but only for 30 seconds to 3 minutes haha

[GreytoWhite]

Aye, taiji zhuang is necessary to truly learn taiji.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The Chen Tigers in particular like to torture students during workshops by suddenly freezing the whole scene for half an hour (I've heard horror stories about an hour of that too from taiji classmates) in a random position -- occasionally a very difficult one to maintain, forcing you to stand not just like a tree but like this tree:

 

So that frozen position, for up to an hour, would include all the points related to movement right? So you're saying this is also done as well?

[Taomeow]

So that frozen position, for up to an hour, would include all the points related to movement right? So you're saying this is also done as well?

 

 

No, I'm saying this is not done in any position -- you only settle in a position of "settled." There's lots and lots of them, but they are all different from all the "move" positions, the tailbone being your most reliable guide but every other point also having a move-settle range to choose from, and when you settle, you choose from the "settle" options for each point, you settle "everything at once." There's a move-settle move-settle rhythmic flow of body use in taiji. There's a move-move move-move move-move, move-this-part, move-that-part, move-move, etc., pattern of body use in hard MA. You are looking to apply this latter pattern to ZZ, but it is not designed to follow it. It follows the settle phase of the move-settle cycle. A settled position can be anything from your many options in the settle phase of the flow -- ZZ is the simplest of them all but it does not make it simple. Every settled position is different from every moving position, and you don't want to settle in any moving position, and you don't want to settle any parts of the body in any moving position, because, like I said, they are unstable, and ZZ is an exercise in stability. My teacher would demonstrate it (as he did many times) by pushing you very slightly in the position you assume -- if you are in an unsettled position, you lose balance, if you're in a settled position, you root and remain glued to your place, push come to shove.

[Taomeow]

Aye, taiji zhuang is necessary to truly learn taiji.

 

I'd say "useful" rather than necessary. This is pretty hard for beginners. Was widely practiced by hardcore masters of old though -- I've read in taiji books that they used to stand in Single Whip, for an hour or so, under the table! Imagine that!

 

What's necessary is to do the form extremely slowly from time to time.

[Andrei]

You can freeze the posture in any of these:

 

 

Edited October 26, 2014 by Andrei

[Taomeow]

 

Edited November 5, 2014 by Taomeow

[Harmonious Emptiness]

If I understand this video correctly, we are talking about Wuji pillar and stabilizing center pillar, and anything where the hands are not at the sides is not Wuji standing, but rather stabilizing center/Zhongding standing; however, they are both zhan zhuang.

 

See especially at 5:44 when Chen Xiaowang takes the zhongding posture. He certainly appears to follow the points I mentioned earlier.