Will somebody please convince me?

[Songtsan]

I'm at the point where I consider things such as enlightenment, calm abiding, etc. as state attainments and not really attached to them anymore. I am satisfied with my current ability to find bliss and happiness without formal meditative techniques. In short I am a happy guy and not inclined to persevere due to this fact.

 

What is it that Taoists seek? What is this immortality that they are talking about?

 

I already feel immortal in that I believe that it is fun to be clouded by delusion, to be born in ignorance and have to start over in the wheel...I can't say that I will always be this way, but this is where I am at currently.

 

If someone could somehow shine light on what it is that is possible and more firmly convince me that these things are attainable, then I might persevere more and try harder.

 

What I have heard is that one can develop a light body and reappear and disappear at will from this plane. Who agrees that this is possible?

 

What is it that crystallizes when one returns awareness to its source?

 

I am still studying Secret of the Golden Flower, but it is slow going.

 

I am still practicing what it says, but it is slow going.

 

My obstruction is that I am stuck in my ways, going hither and thither. I see the lack of focus and its weakness. But at my core I feel this sense of nonurgency, which might be likened to complacency...or not?

 

Is there a reason to take life seriously? To go beyond mere chasing of fascinations? Or will this chasing in itself be the cure? It seems that when I chase fascinations, I eventually experience them enough to burn out the fervent interest and go on to other things...

 

You may see me as a baby whiner - shit or get off the pot or whatever - who knows, but I seriously have never been hooked or convinced...maybe because seeing is believing?

 

A 1% gain in faith would be significant...

 

Faith can move mountains.

 

I will keep looking and probing on my own, but if anyone has they key to jump start my car, please do...

 

have any of you attained anything of worth? - something that is so world shaking as to be likened to total annihilation of all doubt that the practice/way you are on is the big ticket to salvation or extreme gain likened to winning the Universal Lottery?

 

Just checking.

[Taoist Texts]

I'm at the point where I consider things such as enlightenment, calm abiding, etc. as state attainments and not really attached to them anymore. I am satisfied with my current ability to find bliss and happiness without formal meditative techniques. In short I am a happy guy and not inclined to persevere due to this fact.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDls5C4a_kU

[katsura]

I don't think you should necessarily feel pressured to conform to anyone else's standard of spiritual excellence, but the fortune of being exposed to effective qigong and meditation instructions is not a small thing, and will only enhance whatever you feel you already have. That said, if it's not time for you to dedicate yourself to practice then it won't do to force yourself either.

[Guest munky]

I dont think we should separate spirituality and normal life. What is it that you are practising from the golden flower manual?
Is cultivation to chase a fascination - a mental construct of what it will be like to be enlightened or have immortal powers a good reason for doing cultivation?
Maybe it would be a good idea to take a step back and just cultivate, do good practices because it's what you naturally feel like you want to do.
There aren't instantaneous results, so an attitude toward cultivation knowing it's a gradual journey with gradual unfolding along with life itself is more useful. The mind can overcomplicate things by analysing everything and its rationale, projecting possible outcomes in the future in the span of minutes.
Cultivation should be worthwhile because it will add to your life, so that its not either a fascination you chase excessively in the short term, or something you drop completely because of burn out.

Afterall, cultivation can be about working on improving and refining yourself, cultivating virtue to gradually experience the higher energy and dimensions of life. To experience spiritual energy, which is what eventually crystallises when enough has been transformed from lower energy. So then immortality would simply be the natural progression of this and what happens toward the end of this very gradual progression of refining higher and higher.

[Wayfarer]

Songtsan, a person who experiences enlightenment realises in that moment there is nobody enlightenment occurs to; there is only One; That which they are, That which all things IS - and IT cannot be Awake or deluded; these are states created by thought.

 

Whether you realise it or not, you are already That - you are something that is neither one thing or another; you only 'think' you are one thing or another. When you don't think, what are you then?

 

So in a sense, all this idea of cultivation, working towards harmony and striving for achievement arises from the belief you are not already That. You cannot achieve what you already are, you cannot create harmony where there is only One, and you cannot cultivate something that is a delusion...so what can you do?

 

If you want to see through the delusion of self, of Songtsan, the obstacle is believing in your thinking "I am this, I need that, I can't be arsed, I will do." This is not the thoughtless place of That which is No-where, and No-thing. So maybe pay no attention to those thoughts that arise, and a space begins to grow between thinking; what remains in the silence? Or, as recommended in V16 of the TTC, observe the settled-quality of all things - for they are That which is unmoving and therefore still. You could test all you know against non-duality. The list is endless.

 

It is a peculiar thing, to do nothing, to think nothing and not bother. A person might think, great no need to read scripture, I'll sit back and watch a movie or go to the pub "I don't need to do anything" - but really this advice is meant for a person who has tried everything they can and has come to the realisation nothing is working; letting go can then be a powerful thing.

 

Only 'you' stands in your way. "I" can't do a thing about that.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Well, in my view I don't want to be clouded with delusion and have to cycle up and down through states... I want gnosis as far as it can go.

 

But that's probably not really what gets me cultivating each day. I've become a better person with a better attitude and mind and virtue over the last three or so years, and I'm enjoying feeling like every step I take on the path removes a little weight from me as I unfold a bit more.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Seeker of Wisdom

[woodcarver]

Try a different meditation style. I sometimes get too "used to" one where it no longer helps and I think I'm so enlightened, bro.

 

My gain: I was very, very crazy and pretty damn insane. Now I'm perfectly crazy and significantly less insane. I'm no longer tormented by myself. I can get love anytime anywhere. I can focus, be patient, and love myself/others.

 

Drop the faith and experience things first hand. I consider myself a scientist and that's why I follow the tao

[Spotless]

Steven Jobs found a profound opening in the judicious use of a psychoactive drug - perhaps it was Mushrooms?

 

I will state that doing some mushrooms once or twice is certainly far better than forcing your kundalini through breathing exercises and other hyper practice mistakes that often result in very long term detours.

 

 

I am not recommending drugs - but you are surfacing and looking for the sun behind the clouds.

No one can convince you of its brilliance - you have this within you but for now you are indulged in the diving below.

 

If you wish to do due diligence to this exploration here are some considerations:

 

Real practice on a daily level will result in a higher IQ, better reaction times, more patience, better interpersonal relations, better memory, better balance, better hand eye coordination, better sense of smell, better sense of taste, greater visual perception and a clear movement from the indulgence of adolescence to higher thinking.

 

If after 2 years of this practice you have not convinced yourself of the worth of these endeavors - what have you lost?

 

The big miraculous stuff is not arrived at in such a way as to make it feel big and miraculous - it arrives in its own stunning way but with a great deal of familiarity and it is already for the most part, a part of your every day experience.

The smaller stuff - often mistaken for the Big stuff - it serves to make the journey interesting and validating and reminds one the clouds are not the full view.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Spotless

[C T]

From my limited observation, wisdom, or philosophical insights alone (i.e. gaining knowledge and trying to increasingly fathom reality) is insufficient to complete a person's spiritual transformation. A wholesome feeling, or sense of contentment, is where one knows without even an ounce of doubt that irreversible fulfilment has been effected - this would necessitate a transference of the knowledge gained into altruistic actions, meaning that wisdom alone is limited unless paired with an attitude of making what one knows useful to others. Only then will there be experienced a gradually lasting & satisfying state of mind.

 

There are already too many wise people in this world - whats lacking are kind people, those with hearts wide open, fearlessly compassionate, purely motivated, and always humble enough to help without putting self above all.

 

The OP seems like a fairly intelligent person, with a fair pool of knowledge across a wide range of subjects, yet, there appears occasional strands of unease, as evidenced by his words expressing inner dissatisfaction in various posts made since a while back. Perhaps the OP can understand that he is not lacking in knowledge, but absenting himself from a dedicated yet simple intent to think about himself a little less and deed-wise, consider others more. The surest way to self-happiness is by generously letting others share what one have realised. Otherwise it'll all be in vain.

 

These are not my thoughts. Im merely reflecting sound advice given by sages across the various traditions, that true happiness comes from putting others before self, and true suffering arise from putting self before others. Some people think that they have nothing, therefore its impossible to give to others. I dont think thats how it works. We all have something to give. The question is, if we really possess nothing of worth, material or otherwise, what is it that makes us continue to cling to self (contraction) instead of opening and expanding more, since we've already decided that we have nothing to lose?

Edited October 23, 2014 by C T

[Jetsun]

What is the search for immortality except the neurotic attempt to escape the inevitability of death?

 

Yet if non-duality is a deeper truth then on another level your identity is just as much with the entirity of existence than it is with your individual body, therefore you are already immortal and death only exists in the imagination.

[Marblehead]

I used to get the concepts of immortality and immorality mixed up all the time.

[The Tao Of Alex]

Hi Songtsan. I certainly can't give you the answer you may be seeking, from my limited experiences. But I may be able to point you in a direction. I'm not sure why a person might want to chase immortality. We're here in what appears to be the eternal now, 'just being' by default(my opinion) in one sense makes you eternal, if this is what you are seeking.

Like myself, and possibly others, developing 'A Tao of Songtsan' might be a way of viewing things...or maybe not. As I'm sure you know, only you can know deep down, what path to walk and move yourself forward. Take time to sit quietly with yourself, it will come to you.

Cheers

Alex

[Michael Sternbach]

On one's spiritual way, one experiences ascents and platforms. If you have found a state of contentment, that's great! That's, to an important degree, what cultivation is all about. You may want to continue your practice just to maintain your state.

 

Are there higher levels to attain to? Yes, there are ALWAYS higher levels, I believe. You will find them when you're ready. Maybe your next stage is already in the making without your knowledge.

 

Sure, I and others can tell you some stories about what can be done... But you have heard such stories before. What matters to you is it what YOU can achieve! Only you can answer this, by walking your path steadfastly yet patiently.

 

And yes, there are times to learn, and there are times to give on what we have learned to others.

[Songtsan]

winter is coming....

 

Is it time for me to stop the the infighting and store up some energy?

[Songtsan]

Strangely, I find myself attracted to the Kriya Yoga tradition, of which there is a group here in town that is of exactly the lineage that I was initiated in in 1998 or so....such a wild crazy journey, and I am only 38....who knows what will happen. Belief systems, gotta love 'em. And practice, it's what makes the wheel go round.

 

Right now I am still trying this:

 

Full body relaxation, calming the outward flowing energies..

 

Observe thoughts, follow their traces back to their origin...

 

Find who it is that is aware, and try to follow it backwards...try to remove the energy from the eyes and ears as recommended in the Secret of the Golden Flower

 

I try not to mess with the energy, although I feel it moving all over my body, in LDT, MDT, hands/legs, and nei wan....

 

I find myself with symptoms of Qigong illness - delusions of aliens, demons, gods, I am now trying to not attach to those rising constructs....finding out deeply rooted fear, based on my own possession of the body

Edited October 23, 2014 by Songtsan

[woodcarver]

I find myself with symptoms of Qigong illness - delusions of aliens, demons, gods, I am now trying to not attach to those rising constructs....finding out deeply rooted fear, based on my own possession of the body

Now we're talkin. Where thoughts come from can be interesting but it's irrelevant. Even "interesting" is duality.

 

Paranoia = amplified narcissism. This thing is going to happen to me because I'm so special.

 

Just stick to the classic texts and what is only found there. I know that sounds dangerous and closed minded but it seems like you're drifting into too many ways of thinking and ideas.

 

Try shikantaza. It's hell but I haven't found anything better, yet.

Edited October 23, 2014 by woodcarver

[katsura]

I find myself with symptoms of Qigong illness - delusions of aliens, demons, gods, I am now trying to not attach to those rising constructs....finding out deeply rooted fear, based on my own possession of the body

Please look into the secret smile exercise, or anything centered on cultivating bliss and jhana. I also recommend intoning the six healing sounds. Most of this should be available online, but let me know if you want more guidance. There is the Tibetan Chod exercise as well, which is explicated in Tsultrim Allione's Cutting Through Fear. I have serious issues with paranoia and I can state with confidence that when coming out of a bliss state, these feelings are muted in a powerful way.

[woodcarver]

I don't know about anyone else but I have trouble selecting a specific group of thoughts that are unwanted and then successfully eliminating them. For me... "what should I have for lunch" kind of stuff fades equally with unwanted delusions from continuous practice and study.

 

Maybe thoughts are thoughts are thoughts are thoughts?

[Marblehead]

Maybe thoughts are thoughts are thoughts are thoughts?

Now there's a thought.

[woodcarver]

Now there's a thought.

Saved it with the "maybe"

[Walker]

 

What is it that Taoists seek? What is this immortality that they are talking about?

 

No seeking seeking, no obtaining obtaining; just returning, but never left; taste one drop, and the ocean of everybody's suffering empties by ten thousand gallons; you will have convinced yourself. 返璞归真；虽名的得道，实无所得。

[Wayfarer]

Hey Woodcarver, you said that you have trouble eliminating unwanted thoughts successfully...this is why...what is 'selecting' certain thoughts is thought, what decides to eliminate them is thought, what analyses success is thought.

 

You are trying to rid yourself of thought by using the very thing you wish to be rid of; thought. That is not possible. I may be repeating myself (I forget what I've said where)...any thought is like a fly buzzing over a still lake; your attention is taken by flies and you do not see what lies beneath; replacing a thought by using a thought does not clear the view. Pay no attention to the flies and one begins to glimpse the lake. And all without 'doing', nice huh?

Edited October 24, 2014 by Wayfarer

[Songtsan]

Please look into the secret smile exercise, or anything centered on cultivating bliss and jhana. I also recommend intoning the six healing sounds. Most of this should be available online, but let me know if you want more guidance. There is the Tibetan Chod exercise as well, which is explicated in Tsultrim Allione's Cutting Through Fear. I have serious issues with paranoia and I can state with confidence that when coming out of a bliss state, these feelings are muted in a powerful way.

 

I will check these out, but as a fellow paranoid (schizoaffective), I am allowing myself to enter these states in order to understand them, so I do not seek to cover up or otherwise assuage feeling states...I want to discover their root source

[Songtsan]

Yeah, all these states I experience are thought derived or thought initiated...

 

Obviously I just need that empty mind state....

 

but is there something beyond just empty mind? Or is empty mind with awareness sufficient to take one to the fount of all things needed.

 

So I am still stuck in thought land, due to the fact that I want to be sure that there is no special goal or focus or technique that I should hold onto before I 'disappear' - am I being a 'fool'?

[woodcarver]

Hey Woodcarver, you said that you have trouble eliminating unwanted thoughts successfully...this is why...what is 'selecting' certain thoughts is thought, what decides to eliminate them is thought, what analyses success is thought.

 

You are trying to rid yourself of thought by using the very thing you wish to be rid of; thought. That is not possible. I may be repeating myself (I forget what I've said where)...any thought is like a fly buzzing over a still lake; your attention is taken by flies and you do not see what lies beneath; replacing a thought by using a thought does not clear the view. Pay no attention to the flies and one begins to glimpse the lake. And all without 'doing', nice huh?

Oh ok. So I really can't just get rid of the ones I don't like? Darn.