Will somebody please convince me?

[katsura]

So I am still stuck in thought land, due to the fact that I want to be sure that there is no special goal or focus or technique that I should hold onto before I 'disappear' - am I being a 'fool'?

It's impossible for me to know what phase you are in your development, but the non-dual awareness many of us are pointing towards typically only comes after a period of deep involvement with some formal method of practice (a technique, in other words.) There is a pivotal moment when all contrivance is abandoned, but only after many days of sincere effort.

 

The techniques I mentioned aren't meant to obscure your experience of things, but to purify them. Now, from non-dual perspective, there is nothing to purify because there is no thought of purity or impurity, but the people capable of realizing this intuitively, from a conventional perspective, are quite pure! It's somewhat paradoxical, but if you're asking for motivation to practice then that would be it.

 

Edit: typos, formatting

Edited October 24, 2014 by katsura

[Songtsan]

It's impossible for me to know what phase you are in your development, but the non-dual awareness many of us are pointing towards typically only comes after a period of deep involvement with some formal method of practice (a technique, in other words.) There is a pivotal moment when all contrivance is abandoned, but only after many days of sincere effort.

 

The techniques I mentioned aren't meant to obscure your experience of things, but to purify them. Now, from non-dual perspective, there is nothing to purify because there is no thought of purity or impurity, but the people capable of realizing this intuitively, from a conventional perspective, are quite pure! It's somewhat paradoxical, but if you're asking for motivation to practice then that would be it.

 

Edit: typos, formatting

 

I know that most of the thoughts I have, if not all, are due to attachment to ownership of the body/mind complex and all of its associated attributes...it would make perfect sense to drop these attachments...

 

I only stop in occasionally lately to voice doubts or questions...generally I am fairly centered and applied in my self cultivation efforts...I allow these decompression (of a sorts) phases to occur using a 'just in case' model

[Wayfarer]

I can't seem to include a quote in my reply but to Songtsan - it depends how deep down the rabbit hole you want to go; if not then ignore this...

 

"Yeah, all the states I experience are thought derived or thought initiated" - yes, which is also a thought for there is the belief in a 'you' experiencing 'something', which is natural in a way but in truth dualistic... if there is non-duality, what can experience what? There can only be Experience.

 

"Obviously I just need to empty my mind state"... - you are emptiness itself and do not have a need. You are listening to your "you", your mind that is saying "I just need to blah, blah" - you cannot do what you are hoping to do by listening to it, the mind is what is obscuring your realising that you are already THAT...

 

"But is there something just beyond the mind?" - your mind is making things up! We all do it. There is no you, so what is beyond that which is nothing? I'm not saying "you" are unreal; you are Reality as is everything else you see - a Totality of One...not a collection of things connected together BUT one thing alone. It is Being and nothing exists within or beyond it. Only your thinking; which has at its base confusion, is spinning you this tale, spinning everyone a lie...so do you want to listen to it lying to you? If not, ignore it, as you would someone you don't want to hear. Try it for a week, see what happens.

 

"I want to be sure that there is no special goal, focus or technique..." - I'm saying you are the Absolute Nameless No-Thing - what does that require? What need could it have; when there is only it ITSELF? Only 'you' think of a need, or a goal because you do not believe you are already emptiness. That truly is your nature but you haven't yet realised it, would it not make sense then that you need to stop doing, stop needing, stop reaching out, to at last turn to yourself; That which has nothing to reach out to, nothing to require or acquire?

 

It's not easy and you may think I'm talking a crock of crap - you won't know until you 'stop'. How hard is it to stop? How big an expert do you need to be, to do nothing? You won't begin to see the lie, until you start to ignore the 'need', then in the silence of it all, the need begins to fade, the thought begins to fade, 'you' begins to fade.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Wayfarer

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

you should find a good, qualified teacher who has an understanding of Chinese medicine to help you fix your problem.

 

 

Many people dangle a carrot in front of their own faces and when they go to grab it, the carrot pulls away again.

this can be hugely annoying and destructive until you learn to give up the "enligthenment" idea and start going after the "practice" idea with some serious effort.

 

Laozi said

 

聖人無常心，以百姓心為心。

the sage doesn't hold one emotion forever,

because he knows all people only feel for their hearts.

 

whatever it is that is bothering you, it comes from holding something tighter in your emotions than you ought to.

when i was in my early twenties I went through a similar problem and eventually had to learn to let it go;

After letting go of the emotional holding pattern, I was able to make progress ten fold.

 

Give up on the end result and follow the best methods you can find,

 

心不動念，無來無去，不出不入，自然常在。勤而行之，是真道路。

from the jade emperor embryonic breathing classic:

the heart doesn't stir the emotions,

none come and none go,

none exit and none enter,

you must stay natural for a long time.

work hard and make progress,

this is the true path of the dao.

[Songtsan]

I can't seem to include a quote in my reply but to Songtsan - it depends how deep down the rabbit hole you want to go; if not then ignore this...

"Yeah, all the states I experience are thought derived or thought initiated" - yes, which is also a thought for there is the belief in a 'you' experiencing 'something', which is natural in a way but in truth dualistic... if there is non-duality, what can experience what? There can only be Experience.

..................

 

This has convinced me!

 

Yes....I feel the faith now that these things 'should' stop - I have before and now do again....I think I got hijacked by my mind for a long spell, but this has really escalated the process towards 'home that I never left.'

 

This is cool - thank you for That.

[woodcarver]

I was a bit blunt in this thread I apologize. I think I had my chi stuck in my tao.

[Bearded Dragon]

I used to read a lot of books. Trying to understand, finding good practices. It took quite a few years to have faith in just being. It's not an easy thing to accept that there is nothing to do. If you're aware of it and want to change then it will fall away in time so don't worry.

[Marblehead]

It took quite a few years to have faith in just being. It's not an easy thing to accept that there is nothing to do.

No, not an easy task at all.

[Songtsan]

So here is where I am today:

 

Ideal practice:

 

Develop the Habit Body over and over (at least a few hundred days straight while sublimating all desires) to approach non-stealing, non-harming, non-mis-use of sexual energy, non-lying, and non drug-use and to create a firm and flourishing Desire Body...which will execute its functions perfectly, desiring to do so, while I turn the light of awareness back towards itself during all hours.

 

This includes:

 

-Relaxation in all movements and postures

-Awareness of all imbalances, resulting in auto-correction through Wu Wei principles

-Engendering compassion for all beings

-Maintaining disciplined focus in exerting energy to correct imbalances, using 5-pointed Star (Head and limbs extending towards all directions)

[Songtsan]

From my limited observation, wisdom, or philosophical insights alone (i.e. gaining knowledge and trying to increasingly fathom reality) is insufficient to complete a person's spiritual transformation. A wholesome feeling, or sense of contentment, is where one knows without even an ounce of doubt that irreversible fulfilment has been effected - this would necessitate a transference of the knowledge gained into altruistic actions, meaning that wisdom alone is limited unless paired with an attitude of making what one knows useful to others. Only then will there be experienced a gradually lasting & satisfying state of mind.

 

There are already too many wise people in this world - whats lacking are kind people, those with hearts wide open, fearlessly compassionate, purely motivated, and always humble enough to help without putting self above all.

 

The OP seems like a fairly intelligent person, with a fair pool of knowledge across a wide range of subjects, yet, there appears occasional strands of unease, as evidenced by his words expressing inner dissatisfaction in various posts made since a while back. Perhaps the OP can understand that he is not lacking in knowledge, but absenting himself from a dedicated yet simple intent to think about himself a little less and deed-wise, consider others more. The surest way to self-happiness is by generously letting others share what one have realised. Otherwise it'll all be in vain.

 

These are not my thoughts. Im merely reflecting sound advice given by sages across the various traditions, that true happiness comes from putting others before self, and true suffering arise from putting self before others. Some people think that they have nothing, therefore its impossible to give to others. I dont think thats how it works. We all have something to give. The question is, if we really possess nothing of worth, material or otherwise, what is it that makes us continue to cling to self (contraction) instead of opening and expanding more, since we've already decided that we have nothing to lose?

 

Somehow I totally glossed over this post, or I would have replied earlier...probably cause I am usually viewing TTB from a cellphone with a cracked screen...

 

I hear what you are saying and approve in spirit. What you guys don't know about me is that I usually only post the worst of what's going on with me here, and don't often share the best. In real life, I spread this type of knowledge with all of my friends and in therapy. I just assume that there are enough people here who can give good advice that I don't need to be one of the good energy givers here...I play Devil's advocate more often, Wrathful Deity style...

 

In real life I try to balance self and other interest about 50/50 - which I consider true equanimous compassion without going overboard.

 

Let me give you an example of how it could go overboard....

 

A little over two months ago I took in two heroin addicts who had no place to live - they have finally found their own place, and it was very stressful for me, so I was being very altruistic, especially considering that I am on parole (you wouldn't believe the stress and anxiety this caused)...I did this out of what I thought was a sense of compassion. It was based on superficial reaction, which is what people are often reacting to when responding to others on the internet....I learned a big lesson though in that I was simply enabling those guys to continue on their path of misery...In any event, lesson learned. I often have zero dollars in my wallet, and don't eat enough, yet I will still end up giving up what little money I have out of a misplaced sense of caring...I have done this at least six times in the last 6 months....I thought I was a compassionate person, but all I was doing was enabling these others street people to go buy drugs....I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve to some extent and am easily drawn into to others' chosen wheels of suffering.

 

I believe that we all choose our own suffering. I know that I chose mine now. I used to make excuses, but I am now certain that I put myself exactly here through the choices that I have made.

 

This is why I am very business like.

 

It is up to me tot get myself out of my own hell realms.

 

I put myself here because of my own reifying habitual urge expressions...

 

I have in my mind a plan to 'healer heal thy self' by fast tracking very soon to forming a very clean and pure habit body so that I may then may teach others. I have found that by trying to help others when you are 'down' is not so useful, because I lack the wisdom to make that compassion useful.

 

Compassion without wisdom is not the best.

 

It can lead to compounded suffering.

 

I do have compassion, and I feel it daily. It is still a confused one though and oft gets me into deeper karmic debt than out of it...I don't know how many times I have fallen trying to help others when I have not been able to help myself..

 

So I will save acting through compassion until it is the opportune moment, which will hopefully be in a few years at the most...not so long, eh?

 

Right now, what I need is for people to help me help myself.

 

That is it. It is OK to be selfish if one is selfishly seeking self-cultivation to gain virtue...

 

Those who have succeeded on the path I am treading are in the position to help me.

 

Half the time I try to help people with less understanding than me it backfires.

 

This is why I am waiting.

 

I need this time to cultivate so that I can start sharing the good stuff.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Songtsan

[Rara]

Songtsan, you answer your own questions very well Forums are great aren't they? Sometimes I write and write and write and suddenly I realise how I highlight my own problems and solutions.

 

Writing is a meditation in itself. Or therapy...keeping diaries is a big thing for some teens.

 

But more to your points. I will side with the side of you that knows chasing, going overboard with compassion etc are bad for you. Although you mean well, remember, people on this planet suck. So you won't be liberated for putting too much energy into others...you will just lose the energy and become disappointed.

 

Do your bit, then move on. Feel no pressure for this and that, just live free Your good nature will look after everything that needs to be looked after...seems like you've cultivated enough now!

[Rara]

Btw, I wasn't calling you a teen - that was just an example I was using!

[Marblehead]

Songtsan, you answer your own questions very well Forums are great aren't they? Sometimes I write and write and write and suddenly I realise how I highlight my own problems and solutions.

 

Writing is a meditation in itself. Or therapy...keeping diaries is a big thing for some teens.

 

People. Yes, there are many folks who keep diaries so that they can observe their own changes through life.

 

Excellent what you said.

[Songtsan]

Songtsan, you answer your own questions very well Forums are great aren't they? Sometimes I write and write and write and suddenly I realise how I highlight my own problems and solutions.

 

Writing is a meditation in itself. Or therapy...keeping diaries is a big thing for some teens.

 

But more to your points. I will side with the side of you that knows chasing, going overboard with compassion etc are bad for you. Although you mean well, remember, people on this planet suck. So you won't be liberated for putting too much energy into others...you will just lose the energy and become disappointed.

 

Do your bit, then move on. Feel no pressure for this and that, just live free Your good nature will look after everything that needs to be looked after...seems like you've cultivated enough now!

 

Yeah, I am posting on this forum for mirroring. It helps so much. In response to what you said, half the time I ask the question, it is answered automatically within a short time period anyways..mainly what I need to do is isolate and refine my practice. I am a solo meditator working outside of traditions and with no teacher. I hear that this is foolish. When I have the money and am in the right place I will go find a school of some sort. Until then all I have is you guys and myself and books..I make progress slowly. It is what it is. I feel content with it.

[Rara]

 

Yeah, I am posting on this forum for mirroring. It helps so much. In response to what you said, half the time I ask the question, it is answered automatically within a short time period anyways..mainly what I need to do is isolate and refine my practice. I am a solo meditator working outside of traditions and with no teacher. I hear that this is foolish. When I have the money and am in the right place I will go find a school of some sort. Until then all I have is you guys and myself and books..I make progress slowly. It is what it is. I feel content with it.

Foolish to a degree. Everybody needs a guide or mentor to tell them that they are doing it right (books and forums are good suplements) but also, be careful that you remain open to other teachings/teachers Really depends on what it is you're meditating for etc

 

Though what I feel is that you do seem to do fairly well on your own regardless. The self-reflection i saw in your original post was quite admirable

Edited October 28, 2014 by Rara

[Songtsan]

Foolish to a degree. Everybody needs a guide or mentor to tell them that they are doing it right (books and forums are good suplements) but also, be careful that you remain open to other teachings/teachers Really depends on what it is you're meditating for etc

 

Though what I feel is that you do seem to do fairly well on your own regardless. The self-reflection i saw in your original post was quite admirable

 

All teachers/teachings and traditions stemmed from someone originally taking the step to figure it out for themselves by using their own sense and wisdom faculties. I have the confidence that I can make it on my own eventually. My passion is in this obviously. I look and search, meditate sometimes hours a day formally, and all day long loosely. I am basically intensely studying the traditions of Tibetan Buddhism, Taoism, Vedanta, and others...I find the commonalities and create cross correlations as far as practice design. Still in progress. Practice is the path. Some would say that I am already where I want to be and don't know it.

[C T]

Compassion without wisdom is not the best.

 

It can lead to compounded suffering.

Thats right.

 

Actually, compassion, which is only the citta aspect of bodhi-citta, is not wishy-washy at all, if understood correctly.

Bodhi, the wisdom aspect, must be fully developed before the citta aspect can be activated without falling into traps,

if you know what i mean. And from that experience of yours above, i think you are becoming more aware of the

subtleties involved.

 

You should give the Lojong a go. Do it for at least a year. I think it will open you up in a big way.

[Songtsan]

Thats right.

 

Actually, compassion, which is only the citta aspect of bodhi-citta, is not wishy-washy at all, if understood correctly.

Bodhi, the wisdom aspect, must be fully developed before the citta aspect can be activated without falling into traps,

if you know what i mean. And from that experience of yours above, i think you are becoming more aware of the

subtleties involved.

 

You should give the Lojong a go. Do it for at least a year. I think it will open you up in a big way.

 

I really like the idea of thinking of others and not thinking about myself. I also like the shikantaza idea...I think all this thinking of myself and trying to get somewhere special for my own advancement is the problem. I am probably just adding more fuel to the fire as far as the reification process of the ego.

[Rara]

All teachers/teachings and traditions stemmed from someone originally taking the step to figure it out for themselves by using their own sense and wisdom faculties. I have the confidence that I can make it on my own eventually. My passion is in this obviously. I look and search, meditate sometimes hours a day formally, and all day long loosely. I am basically intensely studying the traditions of Tibetan Buddhism, Taoism, Vedanta, and others...I find the commonalities and create cross correlations as far as practice design. Still in progress. Practice is the path. Some would say that I am already where I want to be and don't know it.

 

But wisdom that came from experience, trial and error and seeing other teachers - even if this meant that they discarded a high percentage of what these teachers were saying or practicing.

 

Guatama Buddha is a prime example. That guy went through some right BS before landing in the right place.

[Songtsan]

But wisdom that came from experience, trial and error and seeing other teachers - even if this meant that they discarded a high percentage of what these teachers were saying or practicing.

 

Guatama Buddha is a prime example. That guy went through some right BS before landing in the right place.

 

That's exactly what I am doing....basically applying the same formula...try systems, see what results; tweak the protocol, keep on truckin'

[Mystique Enigma]

A young man caught a small bird, and held it behind his back. He then asked, "Master, is the bird I hold in my hands alive or dead." The boy thought this was a grand opportunity to play a trick on the old man. If the master answered "dead", it would be let loose into the air. If the master answered "alive", he would simply wring its neck. The master spoke, "The answer is in your hands".

 

[Wayfarer]

Songtsan, I practised on my own...the answers are in nature; you could read that instead of books - then your understanding comes first hand rather than secondhand. Compassion naturally arises in the moment without the need to think compassionately; so you can leave it to itself or if that really floats your ego-boat you would probably like a Buddhist practice.

 

Your post that shows your "Ideal Practice" is all a doing...something of your personal identity believes it must do something to become...you could of course investigate that, which may be more useful? However, it seems that your thinking is driving you strongly down the 'doing' route so perhaps you should do, do, do...to finally come to the realisation you never needed to do anything.

 

Good luck whatever you choose.