Middle TanTien- Governs Qi?

[Uroboros]

I was thinking about the foundations of Taoist cultivations and the 3 TanTiens. The Lower TanTien governs Jing. The Middle governs Qi and the upper Shen.

 

The middle consists of Lungs and Heart. Why do these two organs, from a cultivation and/or clinical perspective govern Qi?

 

Some say the Lungs govern Qi because of breathing. Why is it the Lungs AND Heart together?

 

Some food for contemplation.

[voidisyinyang]

heart as lower emotion is over-excitement or love - the qigong masters say that for real healing energy you have to even go beyond love - and so this requires deeper slower breathing - which turns the sadness of lungs into courage since it's a deeper level of emptiness. When that courage combines with love of the heart then you get compassion or agape in Western philosophy - aka "unconditional love" instead of the "false fire of the heart" or over-excitement love.

 

So that's why it's together. The book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" explains this.

[Uroboros]

heart as lower emotion is over-excitement or love - the qigong masters say that for real healing energy you have to even go beyond love - and so this requires deeper slower breathing - which turns the sadness of lungs into courage since it's a deeper level of emptiness. When that courage combines with love of the heart then you get compassion or agape in Western philosophy - aka "unconditional love" instead of the "false fire of the heart" or over-excitement love.

 

So that's why it's together. The book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" explains this.

 

Ahh, the combination of Lung and Heart Virtue create Compassion/ real Love.

 

To clarify, are you saying that the courage of the lungs is a deeper emptiness then the love(or order) of the heart?

 

Thank you for contributing.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I was thinking about the foundations of Taoist cultivations and the 3 TanTiens. The Lower TanTien governs Jing. The Middle governs Qi and the upper Shen.

 

The middle consists of Lungs and Heart. Why do these two organs, from a cultivation and/or clinical perspective govern Qi?

 

Some say the Lungs govern Qi because of breathing. Why is it the Lungs AND Heart together?

 

Some food for contemplation.

 

First of all the three dan are not reducible to the functions of the organs that are in that area of the body. Though they are related to and develop from the potential inherent in the bodies functioning, in particular the Sanjiao or "three burners" channel, they are the result of certain types of self cultivation. The most direct of these is the Neidan procedures of the schools related to the Taoist Yoga text. Other schools are the meditative/ritual alchemical schools of religious Daoism as represented by the two Yellow Court Canons and and the Shang Qing and Ling Bao schools.

 

The study of a TCM text like Giovanni Maciocia's Foundations of Chinese Medicine, can give an insight into the function of qi within the body, which is very complex and the relationship between jing, qi and shen which is part of the normal and healthy function of the human body, and this knowledge is very helpful to cultivation, but the three dan only truly exist in the medium to advanced cultivator and discussions about them from the lower perspective of TCM are as misleading as confusing the function of the roots of a plant with the function of its leaves and flowers.

[dawei]

First of all the three dan are not reducible to the functions of the organs that are in that area of the body.

 

I agree... and there was a time that I used 'area' instead of organs... the middle area... and it should include not just heart and lungs but also the 'yellow court' where unprocessed emotions reside...

 

But in the end, it is all about transformation... you can pick a word "Jing", "Qi", "Shen"... but the three are really one... and if we are willing to get beyond that idea, they are just "spirit"...

 

For the purpose of the thread... "The heart is the ruler of the five organ networks."

 

http://www.itmonline.org/5organs/heart.htm

 

 

The heart is much under estimated in cultivation... As are the lungs.... so Uroboros is on to something

 

The heart pumps the blood; the lungs pump the air.

 

In the body... what do you really 'feel'?

 

Move energy from top to bottom... what do you feel moving?

 

In most cases, your breath/air... and pressure... and then blood-as-energy.

 

So we find that there is an inter-connection of: mind-breath-air-pressure-blood-energy.

 

My recommendation is to explore that connection.

[Uroboros]

First of all the three dan are not reducible to the functions of the organs that are in that area of the body. Though they are related to and develop from the potential inherent in the bodies functioning, in particular the Sanjiao or "three burners" channel, they are the result of certain types of self cultivation. The most direct of these is the Neidan procedures of the schools related to the Taoist Yoga text. Other schools are the meditative/ritual alchemical schools of religious Daoism as represented by the two Yellow Court Canons and and the Shang Qing and Ling Bao schools.

 

The study of a TCM text like Giovanni Maciocia's Foundations of Chinese Medicine, can give an insight into the function of qi within the body, which is very complex and the relationship between jing, qi and shen which is part of the normal and healthy function of the human body, and this knowledge is very helpful to cultivation, but the three dan only truly exist in the medium to advanced cultivator and discussions about them from the lower perspective of TCM are as misleading as confusing the function of the roots of a plant with the function of its leaves and flowers.

 

I agree, you cannot lump the organs and the TT together as the same thing. I simply want to point to where they connect and why. I feel it is a beneficial topic of discussion and exploration.

 

I also agree that the TT become more palpable in later stages as they seem to "stabilize" or transform....In the beggining the organs seem to be a more direct route, to build health and by connection work the TT.

 

Even though the TT and the Organs do not operate the same way, nor are they the same thing, would you agree that they are connected? If they are connected, do they work together? Such as, heart and lungs work with middle.

[Uroboros]

I agree... and there was a time that I used 'area' instead of organs... the middle area... and it should include not just heart and lungs but also the 'yellow court' where unprocessed emotions reside...

 

But in the end, it is all about transformation... you can pick a word "Jing", "Qi", "Shen"... but the three are really one... and if we are willing to get beyond that idea, they are just "spirit"...

 

For the purpose of the thread... "The heart is the ruler of the five organ networks."

 

http://www.itmonline.org/5organs/heart.htm

 

 

The heart is much under estimated in cultivation... As are the lungs.... so Uroboros is on to something

 

The heart pumps the blood; the lungs pump the air.

 

In the body... what do you really 'feel'?

 

Move energy from top to bottom... what do you feel moving?

 

In most cases, your breath/air... and pressure... and then blood-as-energy.

 

So we find that there is an inter-connection of: mind-breath-air-pressure-blood-energy.

 

My recommendation is to explore that connection.

 

The Yellow Court is a fascinating place. Moving the diaphragm seems to pump the Yellow Court, thereby inducing a cleansing/ purifying of the stuck emotions. I use to feel allot of cold there, not much anymore...Breathing worked it out. I will add that to my framework of the MTT.

 

Transformation is the name of the game! What are we transforming? Our selves. What are we? I dont know.

 

The Heart and Lungs are not talked about as much as other organs. Even though we use the Lungs to breathe and the Heart to pump the blood. As you say, much of what we feel stems from them.

 

Maybe it also has to do with switching modes, fight or flight to rest/rejuvinate. Breathing(lungs) manipulates the pulse (Heart) to slow or speed it up.

 

The Lungs purge and nourish through breathing and the Heart nourishes through blood flow regulation while also assisting in purging. All about movement, healing and purging...Transformation. Without them, we die quick. We cannot function at all without the Lungs or Heart.

 

Things to ponder...

 

Thanks for participating guys!

Edited November 1, 2014 by Uroboros

[Zhongyongdaoist]

In saying this:

 

First of all the three dan are not reducible to the functions of the organs that are in that area of the body.

I was not unmindful of this:

But in the end, it is all about transformation... you can pick a word "Jing", "Qi", "Shen"... but the three are really one... and if we are willing to get beyond that idea, they are just "spirit"...

For the purpose of the thread... "The heart is the ruler of the five organ networks."

http://www.itmonline.org/5organs/heart.htm


The heart is much under estimated in cultivation... As are the lungs.... so Uroboros is on to something

The heart pumps the blood; the lungs pump the air.

In the body... what do you really 'feel'?

Move energy from top to bottom... what do you feel moving?

In most cases, your breath/air... and pressure... and then blood-as-energy.

So we find that there is an inter-connection of: mind-breath-air-pressure-blood-energy.

My recommendation is to explore that connection.

Which is why I continued with this:

 

. . . Though they are related to and develop from the potential inherent in the bodies functioning, in particular the Sanjiao or "three burners" channel . . .

and this:

 

The study of a TCM text like Giovanni Maciocia's Foundations of Chinese Medicine, can give an insight into the function of qi within the body, which is very complex and the relationship between jing, qi and shen which is part of the normal and healthy function of the human body, and this knowledge is very helpful to cultivation . . .

 

But intended to point out a common mistake and source of confusion, a "bottom up approach" rather then recognizing the wholistic controlling function of the three Dans, that is why I said it was first. I am glad that dawei had more time to elaborate on the Heart/Lung connections.

Being particularly mindful of this:

 

you can pick a word "Jing", "Qi", "Shen"... but the three are really one

Is why I finished with this:

 

the function of the roots of a plant with the function of its leaves and flowers.

 

emphasizing the functional and substantial continuity.

 

I will point out that I think the word "transformation" is overly used and not always appropriate to describe apparent changes and suggest that instead this process is better thought of as a change from potentiality to actuality, with the "form of humanity" being completely realized in the alchemical process.

And I hope that my pointing out a suggestive quote from the Confucian, Mecius:

 

盡心上: 孟子曰： 「形色，天性也；惟聖人，然後可以踐形。」

Mencius said, 'The bodily organs with their functions belong to our Heaven-conferred nature. But a man must be a sage before he can satisfy the design of his bodily organization.(Jin Xin I:38 Mencus 7A1:38 at the Chinese Text Project, James Legge translator)

Will add more to contemplate, without creating confusion.

[Sebastian]

Sorry for the sidetrack, but what is the yellow court exactly ? Is it the solar plexus ?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Thank you for asking for the clarification. Sometimes when we post on a thread we don't have time to be mindful of everyone who may read it. I have posted this elsewhere:

 

ANATOMICAL LOCATION OF THE MIDDLE DANTIAN p. 222-4

The Middle Dantian, having four points, is shaped like a tetrahedron: the top points toward the Upper Dantian and the Heavens, the bottom points toward the Lower Dantian and the Earth, and the sides point toward the front and back. These areas are described as follows (Figure 5.27):


P. 222

1. The Yellow Court (Huangting): The front lower point of the Middle Dantian is located at the Spirit Storehouse (Shenfu) CV-15 point on the midline of the abdomen, just below the xiphoid bone on the sternum. This point is now commonly called the Turtledove Tail in modern Chinese acupuncture texts. This area is where the Postnatal Qi flows downwards through the Stomach Channels, and the Prenatal Qi flows upwards through the Kidney Channels. They converge with the Thrusting Vessel in order to balance the Fire and Water polarities of the Heart and Kidneys.

According to the Ling Shu (Magical Pivot), this area is the Yuan (source or original) point of all the Yin organs, affecting the Yuan Qi of all five Yin organs. The Yellow Court nourishes the Yin organs, regulates the Heart and calms the spirit (especially in cases of Yin Deficiency). The Yellow Court is the connecting point for the Conception Vessel; it is the Mu point of the sexual organs and is sometimes known as the front gate of the Third Chakra.

In ancient Daoist alchemy, this point was known as Shenfu, the Spirit Storehouse, and is the place where Qi transforms into Shen. Today this point is commonly called the "Yellow Court" (Huangting) because it reflects the emotions stored from the Heart. In ancient Chinese medicine, the Heart was often referred to as the "Yellow Emperor" or "Suspended Gold."

The responsibility of the Pericardium (known as the "Minister of Council", and the "Heart's Protector") was to store emotional experiences that the Heart was not yet ready to process into the emperor's courtyard. These emotions would stay outside the realm of the Heart within the courtyard (known as the "Yellow Court") until the Heart was ready to receive or face the information and experience (Figure 5.28).


P. 223

Historically, there has been much confusion and disagreement as to the actual location of the Yellow Court. This confusion stems from the understanding that the Yellow Court is also a generalized term referring to the energetic centers of Qi transformation (the Three Dantians). Some Daoist traditions maintain that the Yellow Court and Middle Dantian are located in the same area, being both associated with the Heart. Other traditions assign the Yellow Court to the energetic functions of the Spleen.

In ancient China, the transformation of Qi into Shen occurring in the Yellow Court was considered the pivotal stage in energetic alchemy. The Yellow Court was the location where the emergence of the spiritual embryo (Taixi) takes place. Therefore, the exact location of the Yellow Court was historically kept secret. Because of the overlap of energies existing between the Heart and Spleen, only a true Daoist initiate would be able to clearly differentiate the exact location of the Yellow Court.

Energetically, the Yellow Court is believed to be a microcosmic replica of the Dao of the universe, as Yin and Yang polarities continually emerge from and return to it. According to Chinese alchemy, reuniting the Kan (Yang: Fire) and Li (Yin: Water) of the five Yin organs at the Yellow Court reconnected the individual with the energies of the former (Prenatal) and later (Postnatal) Heavenly Realms. This energetic reversal enabled the individual's Shen to "come and go between the physical and spiritual realms" (Figure 5.29).


P. 224
(Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

To directly answer your question no, the yellow court is not reducible to the solar plexus, but is in the general area of the solar plexus and may actualize and harness for its own purposes some of the potential of the solar plexus. There have been two threads in which I have posted which deal with the middle Dan and the two Huang Ting Chings, you can review them here:

 

The Middle Dan and the Heart and Solar Plexus

 

In which I also quote the above post, and:

 

The "internal" and "external" texts of the Huang Ting Ching

 

Where I originally posted it.

 

There is of course a lot more that can be said about all of this, but I hope that this is a helpful start.

[Uroboros]

In saying this:

 

 

I was not unmindful of this:

 

 

Which is why I continued with this:

 

 

and this:

 

 

But intended to point out a common mistake and source of confusion, a "bottom up approach" rather then recognizing the wholistic controlling function of the three Dans, that is why I said it was first. I am glad that dawei had more time to elaborate on the Heart/Lung connections.

 

Being particularly mindful of this:

 

 

Is why I finished with this:

 

 

emphasizing the functional and substantial continuity.

 

I will point out that I think the word "transformation" is overly used and not always appropriate to describe apparent changes and suggest that instead this process is better thought of as a change from potentiality to actuality, with the "form of humanity" being completely realized in the alchemical process.

 

And I hope that my pointing out a suggestive quote from the Confucian, Mecius:

 

 

Will add more to contemplate, without creating confusion.

 

I have heard that the SanJiao is more about energetic metabolism. Does this relate to what you said about the TT especially connecting to it? And through the SJ, to the other Organs?

 

This is really what I am pondering. How the Organs and the TT inter-relate. How the process of transformation, or potentiality to actuality, occurs within the whole being. I am not just focusing on the MTT, It has just come up lately.

 

Zhongyong, if you can, could you clarify what is meant by the mencius quote, that a man must be sage before he can satisfy the design of his bodily organization?

[Uroboros]

Sorry for the sidetrack, but what is the yellow court exactly ? Is it the solar plexus ?

 

Its not a sidetrack at all. The YC does tie in and is connected to the MTT in some way. Definitely worth exploring.

[soaring crane]

For me, in practice, the golden pavilion is right in the middle of the diaphragm, the interface between the solid lower torso and the hollow upper torso.

 

The close proximity of the heart and lungs, making them virtually inseparable, is significant, and elegant, as it places fire and metal into the same forge. Fire tempers metal and metal gives fire something to do, keeps it from flaring up (aka monkey mind).

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Regarding this:

 

 

盡心上: 孟子曰 「形色天性也惟聖人然後可以踐形。」

 

Mencius said, 'The bodily organs with their functions belong to our Heaven-conferred nature. But a man must be a sage before he can satisfy the design of his bodily organization.(Jin Xin I:38 Mencus 7A1:38 at the Chinese Text Project, James Legge translator)

 

 

I'll refer you to what I said here:

from Mencius, which was also a great surprise to me:

 

7B:25

 

 

 

浩生不害問曰、樂正子、何人也。孟子曰、善人也、信人也。何謂善、何謂信。曰、可欲之謂善。有諸己之謂信。充實之爲美。充實而光輝之謂大。大而化之之謂聖。聖而不可知之之謂神。樂正子、二之中、四之下也。

 

Haoshang Buhai asked, What kind of man is Yo Zheng Zi?

Mencius said, He is good, and he is trustworthy.

What do you mean by good, and what do you mean by trustworthy?

A man that people like to be with is good.

A man who keeps this goodness in himself is trustworthy.

One who fully develops his goodness is called excellent.

One whose full development of goodness shines forth is called great.

One whose greatness transforms others is called a sage.

A sage who is unfathomable is called transcendent. (神, Shén )

Yo Zheng fits in the first two levels, but is not up to the last four.

 

(Mencius 7B:25, A. C. Muller's translaton, I have kept Muller's translation in this case, emphasis mine and added (神, Shén ) for clarity, ZYD)

To discover that Mencius viewed the end of Confucian self-cultivation as becoming a 'shen' or 'god' was quit a revelation, but this passage in Mencius is only part of the picture. How it relates to the teachings of the Zhongyong on chéng (诚) will be the subject of future posts. For now, I think I have given everyone plenty to think about.

 

 

 

However probably the most important thing that I said was here:

I will point out that I think the word "transformation" is overly used and not always appropriate to describe apparent changes and suggest that instead this process is better thought of as a change from potentiality to actuality, with the "form of humanity" being completely realized in the alchemical process.

While these are references to Aristotle's hylomorphism (Substance/form), the Chinese lǐ/qì (理氣, Principle/"matter-energy") cosmology that dates back at least to Hafeizi, who in turn credited it to his study of the Dao De Jing, is a close enough "twin" to Aristotle that a study of Aristotle is useful.

 

Call it what you want qi or spirit, the Chinese have long considered that all of creation is a condensation or refinement of one substance, what Aristotle would call "prime matter", in Greek hyle. But without the differentiation provided by "principle", in Aristotle "morphe" in Plato "idos", there would be no difference between heart and liver. Thus the importance of principle or form and my objection to the overuse of "transformation". In becoming a shen/xiān, a cultivator is not transformed, which means a change of form, instead he/she realizes the full potential inherent in their bodies, what I have called "the Form of Humanity", thus Mencius, "a man must be a sage before he can satisfy the design of his bodily organization." A change yes, a transformation, no.

[Uroboros]

Regarding this:

 

I'll refer you to what I said here:

 

However probably the most important thing that I said was here:

 

While these are references to Aristotle's hylomorphism (Substance/form), the Chinese lǐ/qì (理氣, Principle/"matter-energy") cosmology that dates back at least to Hafeizi, who in turn credited it to his study of the Dao De Jing, is a close enough "twin" to Aristotle that a study of Aristotle is useful.

 

Call it what you want qi or spirit, the Chinese have long considered that all of creation is a condensation or refinement of one substance, what Aristotle would call "prime matter", in Greek hyle. But without the differentiation provided by "principle", in Aristotle "morphe" in Plato "idos", there would be no difference between heart and liver. Thus the importance of principle or form and my objection to the overuse of "transformation". In becoming a shen/xiān, a cultivator is not transformed, which means a change of form, instead he/she realizes the full potential inherent in their bodies, what I have called "the Form of Humanity", thus Mencius, "a man must be a sage before he can satisfy the design of his bodily organization." A change yes, a transformation, no.

 

Thank you for expanding your point for clarity.

 

Most will require more contemplation before I can bring up more of a response or inquiry into the first bit.

 

As to your expanation of transformation, in refining our own inherent potential, we do change form in subtle and not so subtle ways. Our body and mind changes the way it operates and what it can do. Becoming something very different, even if it looks near same. Because the base form is the same, do you consider it not a transformation as you have defined it?

 

Would be it more like purifying base into pure?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Again a return to the plant analogy can be useful. When you plant an acorn it grows into an oak. In the process it develops many aspects which change as it realizes its potential. If you plant an acorn and a lime tree grows, that would be a transformation. If you plant an acorn and horses sprout from the ground, well now that would be a real transformation!

 

It is also interesting to think about the complement to transformation, which is transubstantiation. In the Roman Catholic interpretation of the sacrament of communion, the form of wine and a bread wafer remain the same, but the substance underlying them supposedly changes from ordinary "corruptible" hyle into the incorruptible body of Christ. Whether this actually happens in a Roman Catholic Mass or not is an interesting question, but whether it does or not, the idea of transubstantiation is quite an interesting one to add to your list of things to contemplate.

[Uroboros]

Again a return to the plant analogy can be useful. When you plant an acorn it grows into an oak. In the process it develops many aspects which change as it realizes its potential. If you plant an acorn and a lime tree grows, that would be a transformation. If you plant an acorn and horses sprout from the ground, well now that would be a real transformation!

 

It is also interesting to think about the complement to transformation, which is transubstantiation. In the Roman Catholic interpretation of the sacrament of communion, the form of wine and a bread wafer remain the same, but the substance underlying them supposedly changes from ordinary "corruptible" hyle into the incorruptible body of Christ. Whether this actually happens in a Roman Catholic Mass or not is an interesting question, but whether it does or not, the idea of transubstantiation is quite an interesting one to add to your list of things to contemplate.

 

That is a helpful explanation! Thank you, Zhongyong

 

I have been pondering the acorn analogy lately...How it relates to Naturalness(ziran) in Taoism. The acorn becomes the tree, full potential actualized, at its own rhythm and pace, without the need for will-power or effort to make it so.

 

Utilizing that principle for actualizing the human potential is a part of what led me to the ideas of the MTT and the Organs.

 

I feel they relate, unsure how yet.

 

Any ideas?

[voidisyinyang]

Ahh, the combination of Lung and Heart Virtue create Compassion/ real Love.

 

To clarify, are you saying that the courage of the lungs is a deeper emptiness then the love(or order) of the heart?

 

Thank you for contributing.

 

Yeah so Sri Yuketswar calls it "breathless ecstacy" - Emptiness as nirvikalpa samadhi - I think when the middle tan tien is being created then the body is switching over from physical breathing to the immortal breathing of chi energy - so the centers of the hands, feet and top of heat pulsate or breathe with electromagnetic energy creating then alchemical transformation in the body - for example the ability to go without water or sleep or food, creating nutrition, creating water internally.

 

So then this is the "yang chi" stage - and what happens is that it does not stabilize due to over-excitement of the heart and/or fear of the kidneys. So in either case the fire is leaving the eyes or the water the kidneys without the water going above the fire to continue as the alchemical agent.

 

So then the deeper breathing is what creates the further courage - by a deeper conversion of kidney energy into yang chi energy via the fire of the heart.

 

At that point the "Tai Chi" is experienced which as "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" states will cause a deep confusion in the trainer after the first time.

 

If a person can succeed in training after that it's most likely due to the personal supervision of an energy master.

 

But the SFQ master said how his breathing really slows down for his Emptiness meditation - just a few times a minute - so that the chi immortal breathing takes over in which case the chi goes in one direction while the spirit shen goes in the other and that becomes the next level of the small universe meditation - as Taoist Yoga explains. So for that experience there is a spacetime vortex transformation into a holographic dimension of spirit reality - so the person is creating "yin spirits" out of the top of their head for astral travel and spirit communication and deeper healing, seeing the future, etc. Of course most trainers then state that this level of real Emptiness is indescribable but both Master Nan, Huai-chin and the SFQ master said they saw stars during the daytime - whether their spirit traveled into the sky - that is possible. I know the original humans training in this say the same thing - calling it visiting God in the sky as the cosmic Ostrich Egg (the Tai Chi as real kundalini or yang chi creating yin shen energy).

 

So then as the yin shen energy is stored up then it creates "yang shen" which is then new physical matter that recycles back into "yin jing" energy.

 

Of course I would have to study "Taoist Yoga" more to really get more details but then to practice the Taoist Yoga book successfully is another matter.

[doc benway]

The heart is much under estimated in cultivation... As are the lungs.... so Uroboros is on to something

In some Daoist circles maybe, not Hindu, Buddhist, or Bon so much.

Interestingly, I once attended a seminar with Livia Kohn and she advocated much more emphasis on the middle dan tian for female cultivators, esp during the moon time.

 

 

In the body... what do you really 'feel'?

 

Move energy from top to bottom... what do you feel moving?

 

In most cases, your breath/air... and pressure... and then blood-as-energy.

 

I see it a bit differently, not saying anyone is wrong or that I am correct, just offering an alternative and very personal perspective, FWIW.

 

What we feel in the body is the connection between awareness and manifestation.

It is mediated primarily by the nervous system but also by integration with all other systems - endocrine, vascular, respiratory, fascial, muscular, skeletal, and some that perhaps we cannot directly observe or measure (intuition and other subtle forces).

 

What we feel moving is that awareness.

Certainly you can increase circulation to an area with focused attention, you can feel the beating heart, and maybe blood in major vessels, and air moving through the lungs, bronchial tree, gut, etc... there is the proprioceptive awareness and others. There is always movement in all of the tissue, even the bones; but based on my experience with cultivation and human anatomy and physiology, what we are moving is primarily our attention and our intention - awareness.

 

As we peel back layers of the onion in meditation, we find more and more that everything is related to that awareness.

One might even find that everything IS that awareness - nothing more.

 

It was a significant change for me when I let go of my ideas and concepts of Qi and simply open to what I was feeling - my awareness interacting with my tissues and environment. We can certainly propose a concept with a label, like Qi, but it is not needed and can be a distraction for the mind to get tangled with.

 

 

So we find that there is an inter-connection of: mind-breath-air-pressure-blood-energy.

 

My recommendation is to explore that connection.

 

I agree with this 100% (and would add bone, muscle, fascia, tendon, nerve, etc...) and would also add that it is best to let go of all pre-conceived notions of what is, whether they be Daoist, anatomical, physiological, Buddhist, whatever... let go of what you expect and open to what is.

Figure it out for yourself - your experience and answers may differ from others - even from your teachers (mine did).

Find confidence in your answers through direct experience and grow from that.

[Taoist Texts]

 

And I hope that my pointing out a suggestive quote from the Confucian, Mecius:

 

盡心上: 孟子曰 「形色天性也惟聖人然後可以踐形。」

 

Mencius said, 'The bodily organs with their functions belong to our Heaven-conferred nature. But a man must be a sage before he can satisfy the design of his bodily organization.(Jin Xin I:38 Mencus 7A1:38 at the Chinese Text Project, James Legge translator)

 

Will add more to contemplate, without creating confusion.

Legge did not quite understand the phrase

 

'The body is also from Heaven; but one must become a sage inwardly first ,  in order for his sage-hood to  exhibit in his external appearance after that'

Edited March 22, 2016 by Taoist Texts

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Legge did not quite understand the phrase

 

'The body is also from Heaven; but one must become a sage inwardly first ,  in order for his sage-hood to  exhibit in his external appearance after that'

 

Taoist Texts you "Wascally Wacoon", you're just trying to pull my Legge aren't you?

 

My own thinking and understanding does not depend on Legge, I always preferred D. C. Lau's version anyway:

 

Our body and complexion are given to us by Heaven. Only a sage can give his body complete fulfillment. (D. C. Lau, Mencius, Penguin, 1970, p. 191)

 

It may lack the temporal aspect of your version, that of "becoming a Sage", but it does have the virtue of a simplicity which yours lacks.  It does however have the virtue of keeping the translation of 形, xíng as body, but none really plays on the homophonic resonance between 形, xíng as "body" and 性, xìng, from 天性, tiānxìng, "Heavenly Nature", which would have been important both when the the text was written and its later interpretation, though maybe you are hinting at such a relation by saying "The body is also from Heaven".  Lau's translation also has the virtue of being anointed by Tu Wei-ming, who cites it with approval on p. 165, note 1, of Confucian Thought; Selfhood as Creative Transformation, as part of his discussion of the meaning of 践形, jiàn xíng, you know the last two characters of the quote, which apparently took on something of a life of their own, but with sagehood as its context, on p. 149, where he says:

 

Indeed, it seems that the central concern of the Neo-Confucians, motivated by a strong will to fully realize themselves (chien-hsiang), is simply an all-encompassing psychological process: how to become a sage.

 

Sorry about the old school spelling in the quote but, "it's in the book".  I know that you are only trying to see if I know what I am talking about and trick me into some long winded discussion, that, like Wascally Wabbits, is what Wascally Wacoons live for, but I don't have time now for more than this quick note.  I will however expand on some of this in the Daoism and Western Esotericism thread.

 

P.S. By the way thanks for bumping the thread, like I said here:

 

Actually the whole discussion of that thread is rather interesting and I recommend following the link and then going to the beginning of the thread and reading all of it. It is a short thread, only two pages, but very interesting nonetheless.

 

I hope that you did find it interesting, but "let go of my Leggo!"