If you stop practicing, will you slowly become reconditioned?

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

"thirty spokes total on a hub,

because of emptiness,

a cart may have its use."

 

 

so emptiness is just like riding a bike- you may not do it for a long time, but you won't have forgotten how.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

to be less terse and more uself:

 

I met some lovely people the other day who told me about their teacher Thich Nach Hanh,

he is a Viatnamese Zen master and he lives every day in Zen contemplatoin.

The gentleman I met said that Master Thich treats all matters as a time for consciousness - whether he is meditating seated, or moving his little toe- he is aware of each sensation in his body.

Apperantly Oprah interviewed him and asked if he still practiced meditation, his answer "every moment of every day!"

 

a real practice is based around constant awareness - not just the time you spend seated on the pillow.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

my awareness aint on today though - my spelling is atrocious!

[katsura]

You can make permanent changes in your body/mind with training (qigong and meditation.) It takes time and dedication, but it'll happen.

 

Edit: As far practice and 'letting go' goes, there's the old parable about the sculptor who said his only skill was "clearing away the extra bits."

Edited November 2, 2014 by katsura

[ChiDragon]

"thirty spokes total on a hub,

because of emptiness,

a cart may have its use."

 

 

so emptiness is just like riding a bike- you may not do it for a long time, but you won't have forgotten how.

 

"thirty spokes total on a hub,

because of the empty space between the spokes,

a cart may have its use."

 

Note:

Wu(無): "emptiness" was referring to the "space(無)" in between the spokes on the hub.

Edited November 2, 2014 by ChiDragon

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

I agree,

quick post- no time to interpret well

 

三十輻，共一轂，當其無，有車之用

 

san shi fu: thirty spokes

gong yi gu: total one hub

dang qi wu: because of its emptiness

you che zhi yong: a cart may be used

 

anything beyond that is personal interpretation.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

I also feel that DDJ is very situation dependent - so the way one looks at it today and tomorrow may, actually, should be different.

 

My tea teacher said one day "reading laozi is a life practice- the way you understand it in your twenties, thirties, forties, and until you get old will always keep changing." What a lovely way to understand the classics!!!

[Gerard]

...due to impermanence (everything in your samsaric consciousness is subjected to it); hence your task is to exit this chaotic 'mess.' The main question that arises here is: but how much freewill do I possess in order to attain that goal?

 

Your task is to find out.

 

Buddhism=Taoism=Buddhism=Taoism...in the end they are just names for one thing, one uses barebones facts, the other harmony and balance and reality-based principles. Both are needed for a complete practice. Buddhism alone in our day and age won't help you to get out as our modern minds are too blocked; Taoism alone for a life in the mountains, so not suited for 99% of people and also sooner or later one would need to tackle the mind even when living deep in the wilderness.

 

 

[dogson]

I am literally left-handed, so maybe my brain is wired differently, but I've seen a lot of benefit in taking the left-hand path to things. Especially because "eating cake" really demonstrates, in a very direct way, that cake is actually kinda...gross.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Im a southpaw too. Practice has made me 75% ambidextrous so far, that doesnt go away.

What does go away is the idea that holding a yang-ish position to practice. We're not perfect theoretical machines to which the simplest formulas of causality apply without omitting important details. The strict regime isnt always better. At least not for me. I try to do something every day but end up doing something five days a week more or less.

 

Yes, some "achievements" will fade, some stay, some become better after a break. For me its quick, i drop a few important steps down the "ladder" (in a pretty Escherian sense) in a matter of weeks, but the long term effects of a supple body, relaxed shoulders and core, abdominal breathing habits have a shelf-life of length i dont care to find out.

 

A break in practice can also help you highlight new and interesting aspects about you and your practice when you start again, stuff you might never notice if you dont suspend your routine for a spell.

 

I know people who have stopped alltogether and they seem fine except that they always want to start again but never find the time and place for it, causing some discomfort. Also they have lives, kids, careers and other material clutter that impede their journey.

Me, i have an assortment of hats and live under a bridge, works great, its rent controlled and the neighbours are fine.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

would be very interesting to take a poll here to see how many left handers we have.

I am also southerly inclined - I mean, i like women, but I write with the wrong hand...

 

 

Anyway, really interested to see how many lefties - because lefties may be more inclined toward Daoist thinking- being all abtruse and prefering to follow a different course.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Hear hear!

 

Edit:

I've been thinking that the true daoists sages oughta be perfectly ambidextrous, unifying the two "halves" completely. Ideally having the same handwriting with both hands, if so inclined.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[silent thunder]

My son is a lefty but yesterday while doing homework, without thinking about it, he picked up his pencil and answered one question with his right hand, perfectly.

 

When he then 'thought about it' and tried to duplicate, he was unable to match the clarity and precision.

That was interesting.

[hagar]

U can´t undo conditioning.

Personally, I think today´s world is too complex to really create any promise of true practice.

I am meeting my teacher today, and the only thing I feel is shame. Deep shame.

 

Again, this is excellent practice.

[C T]

Im ambidextrous, but can write only with the right, yet most other things are done with the left.

 

In my younger days, it was always that i felt the left hand to have more strength than the right. Now in my mid 50s,

its balancing out a bit -- not so much an increase in strength of the right hand, but a slightly diminished capability

of the left. Used to be able to wax and detail-polish the car with just the left, nowadays it needs to be flipped

& flopped between the 2.

[effilang]

I'm not sure about the question, exactly ..well, I don't know if I understand. But if we ask:

 

"If one stops learning, does one forget?"

"If one stops lifting weights, does one become weaker?"

 

The answer is yes.

 

A friend of mine came to England when he was 13. In his teens, he gradually forgot alot of his mother tongue. Going back there to work, he picked it up again. He's now losing it again.

 

It is different with internal work.

Some transformations can be reversed, others are permanent reactions of the formless and alter you without a direct possibility of return.

 

Thus there is that which can be lost; that which is local and there is that which cannot; which is without location.

It is not like remembering and forgetting with the brain.

Edited November 6, 2014 by effilang

[woodcarver]

Oh yeah I love diverse answers... now embarrass me.

 

Thanks everyone I have much to meditate on now

[Brian]

I agree with rainbowvein -- Whoa.

 

Conditioning is generally the act of undoing prior conditioning. Sometimes the "conditionee" is aware of the conditioning and sometimes not. Intentional conditioning can be more powerful than unintentional conditioning but it is not instantaneous.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

U can´t undo conditioning.

Personally, I think today´s world is too complex to really create any promise of true practice.

I am meeting my teacher today, and the only thing I feel is shame. Deep shame.

 

Again, this is excellent practice.

 

I dunno about conditioning but i do disagree about true practice. I hear what you are saying, dont get me wrong.

Im sometimes sad that im not more prepared to prioritize my training and practice in front of other things, but to say that todays world is more demanding than the ye olde world, seems unfair to everyone involved. Today many people have spare time and holidays, unthinkable until not so long ago. Some are more privileged than most of course. I think true practice is a slowly reinforced psychology and sneaking in as much as can be done without overdoing it. There must be rest after work, i feel immensely lucky im not surviving with tending fields and stacking up a firewood stash to last all of the coming winter from daylight to sundown, you know? I'm so lazy i'd never practice, it'd have to be monastic life or bust.

 

I can relate to the shame of meeting ones teacher and not having done as much as one would have liked. Im meeting mine this next weekend and theres tons of stuff i havent done. But i have "all" week ahead of me at least to go over some points and the stuff i got wrong last time hahah!

[hagar]

Whoa.

 

Why do you believe you can't undo conditioning? Do you have a specific deadline to meet? If not, keep unconditioning yourself. With no deadline. Maybe in a decade or two you will be at a different understanding. Patience and love, my friend.

 

I know it´s a hard pill to swallow. I can only speak for myself.

Most of the basic stuff that I am dealing with happened before I started to practice. It will never be undone. What is said and experienced can never be undone either. It´s there. No matter how much you "let go".

 

I have physical and energetic stuff that, after 20 years of trying to resolve will always be there. I´m just being honest.

 

Deadline: At some point, we lose what we had. When that transition is happening its too late. It´s just life. like menopause, in a way. If you´re lucky you can maintain what you had when you started practice. But reversal is almost impossible. Then you need to be a recluse and have a teacher available at all times.

 

It was a real reality check for me. And I have lost hope.

 

But I´ll practice anyway.

Edited November 10, 2014 by hagar

[hagar]

I agree with rainbowvein -- Whoa.

 

Conditioning is generally the act of undoing prior conditioning. Sometimes the "conditionee" is aware of the conditioning and sometimes not. Intentional conditioning can be more powerful than unintentional conditioning but it is not instantaneous.

yup, but some damage is permanent...

[hagar]

I dunno about conditioning but i do disagree about true practice. I hear what you are saying, dont get me wrong. Im sometimes sad that im not more prepared to prioritize my training and practice in front of other things, but to say that todays world is more demanding than the ye olde world, seems unfair to everyone involved. Today many people have spare time and holidays, unthinkable until not so long ago. Some are more privileged than most of course. I think true practice is a slowly reinforced psychology and sneaking in as much as can be done without overdoing it. There must be rest after work, i feel immensely lucky im not surviving with tending fields and stacking up a firewood stash to last all of the coming winter from daylight to sundown, you know? I'm so lazy i'd never practice, it'd have to be monastic life or bust. I can relate to the shame of meeting ones teacher and not having done as much as one would have liked. Im meeting mine this next weekend and theres tons of stuff i havent done. But i have "all" week ahead of me at least to go over some points and the stuff i got wrong last time hahah!

 

In my experience, there is a much greater danger in losing connection to what gives us life in our modern society than in previous times. The natural elements gave some degree of nourisment.

 

I met my teacher. I understand him better now. I think that he sees that through the practice he teaches there will be a possibility of at least attaining a greater degree of integration than I would have had on my own anyway, so he settles for that.

But there´s no way I will reach a state of pure yang or anything like that, and that´s fine. At least one can settle for being able to enjoy life, and live pretty healthy and content.

[Ish]

Can i ask what lineage/teacher you learn from Hagar? Unless it's private.

[freeform]

a possibility of at least attaining a greater degree of integration than I would have had on my own anyway, so he settles for that.

But there´s no way I will reach a state of pure yang or anything like that, and that´s fine.

 

Your teacher is from an alchemical tradition, no? It's rare to hear such absolutes from a teacher of alchemy.

 

Or is this your own understanding?

 

I'll just add that by my estimation your degree of integration is already beyond what many have achieved. And I'll just continue being inspired by your posts

[hagar]

Can i ask what lineage/teacher you learn from Hagar? Unless it's private.

It´s probably here somwhere, but PM me.

 

Your teacher is from an alchemical tradition, no? It's rare to hear such absolutes from a teacher of alchemy. Or is this your own understanding? I'll just add that by my estimation your degree of integration is already beyond what many have achieved. And I'll just continue being inspired by your posts

He is, and he was pretty up front about it. I was told to make the best out of what I have. It´s water under the bridge.

 

Most of us either start too late or waste what time or potential we have. For me it´s both. One thing is to have far out experiences. Another is to be able to embody the information. I have recieved the absolute best of what is accessible in the west, and I am left with very little. It´s humbling.

 

The only think I can say for sure is that I have not achieved even the minimum of what a practitioner should embody. This is just a fact, not being smart about it.

 

But thanks. I enjoy your posts too.