I.Q. -- is it important?

[manitou]

 

Certainly.

 

But can these things be measured, if we do it differently?

 

And more importantly, should we bother to try?

 

 

Should we bother to try? good question. I'm from an era where they told everyone in the world except YOU what your IQ score is. I still don't know what mine is, to this day. Nor do I care at this point.

 

But I wonder why children (at least children in Hollywood in the 1950's) were not supposed to learn what their IQ's were? Were the adults afraid that this knowledge would pre-program a student to success or failure? Honestly, I think mine was kinda high, but I was real stupid about life. I wonder if "knowing" that I had a decently high IQ might not have kept me more on the straight and narrow than the twisted path I took?

 

(P.S. He's a really cool guy)

Edited November 2, 2014 by manitou

[liminal_luke]

My partner´s cousin had some interesting insight into weddings here in Zacatecas, Mexico. She says that if you have a big, fancy cake everybody will think you´re stuck up. They´ll say who do they think they are to have such a big cake? If you don´t have a cake guests will complain asking "where´s the cake?"

 

I think people often feel the same way about IQ.

 

Liminal

Edited November 2, 2014 by liminal_luke

[manitou]

My partner´s cousin had some interesting insight into weddings here in Zacatecas, Mexico. She says that if you have a big, fancy cake everybody will think you´re stuck up. They´ll say who do they think they are to have such a big cake? If you don´t have a cake guests will complain asking "where´s the cake?"

 

I think people often feel the same way about IQ.

 

Liminal

That it's best if they're right somewhere in the middle?

[Nungali]

But the fool cares not for the gain or even the loss. Often the fool is more enlightened than the magician.

 

I am not saying the 'Fool' is stupid. If we are talking about the same Fool ( not fool ... as in the Mr T sense ) then he may well be how the 'Master Magician' appears to the 'Apprentice Magician' ... ie. it is a matter of outward perception.

 

As for the original post, important for what? IQ is important if you want to be a astrophysicist, but not if you want to be a labourer.

 

The fool cares not that he is a fool, any more than the intelligent one cares that he is intelligent. Sometimes i think i know too much and that is a source of unhappiness.

 

No, that is because you dont know enough yet, you just think you know too much - unless you realise you know too much for the sort of person you are ?

 

I remember when I knew a lot < thinks back > ... yep ! I wasnt as happy then.

 

Thats not to say i think i know alot, for it's all relative anyhow.

Huh? So now; you may know too much but you also dont think you know a lot ....

 

Do you mean , like ; you dont know all the news thats going on the world, but the little you do know of ... you wish you didnt ... hmmmm, you may have a firmer position there than I first thought

 

... yeah, I live like that a bit .

 

You've only got to watch The Simpsons and see the simple pleasures that Homer enjoys

 

 

Edited November 3, 2014 by Nungali

[z00se]

NUNGAIL

 

No, that is because you dont know enough yet, you just think you know too much - unless you realise you know too much for the sort of person you are ?

 

I remember when I knew a lot < thinks back > ... yep ! I wasnt as happy then.

 

Huh? So now; you may know too much but you also dont think you know a lot ....

 

Do you mean , like ; you dont know all the news thats going on the world, but the little you do know of ... you wish you didnt ... hmmmm, you may have a firmer position there than I first thought

 

... yeah, I live like that a bit .

 

 

 

 

Probably know too much for the type of person i am. Obviously there is way too much to know to even claim anyone person would even know 0.0001%. I have rather concentrated on learning general things, rather than specifics, and i learnt this way from TCM. But now i am sick of learning, more time should be spent doing.

[iain]

A few more musings on this one, it is a fascinating topic ...

I think IQ is is a key factor in that which makes for either heard or lone wolf character types ...
No need to measure it, or know what your is, this phenomenon just emerges as such from the status quo regardless of the quotient. As such, those predisposed to a heard mentality, like to compare penis size/Brest firmness, strength and intelligence; all as key factors for sexual and long term partner selection; whilst the person being wooed is quite possibly sneaking of round the back for a quickie with a lone wolf passing through. Alternativly a lone wolf couple may pair for life to form a new pack.
What is relevance any way and am I really comparing human nature to that of a dogs?
What is the retention of sexuality in those of higher conciousness, and its relevance to intelligence?
Lots of questions on this key subject.

Is intelligence perhaps a rather practical feather, in the tail of a bird; As a quotient it becomes an ornate earring of sorts and no more useful than that ...

More questions than answers, sorry for that. Edited November 3, 2014 by iain

[dust]

iain, I don't have answers either, but as you bring up dogs...

 

I notice that when we praise animals for their intelligence -- usually dogs, pigs, dolphins, chimps, etc -- we're often praising their ability to recognize human-like language (spoken words, signs, pictures -- symbols), and subsequently perform tasks.

 

A fish can't use human language or perform tasks on command, but... a fish is pretty good at being a fish.

 

 

Check out Alfred Binet and the beginnings of the IQ test.
IQ began as a 'deficit discourse' and hasn't moved very far from those early days.

 

So, according to wiki, "His principal goal was to identify students who needed special help in coping with the school curriculum."

 

If someone needs help in coping, perhaps they should be doing something else. Forcing people to conform to society's current limited notion of intelligence seems counterproductive, doesn't it?

[doc benway]

Even up to earlier this year, I placed a fairly high importance on I.Q.

 

Is IQ important?

As in most things, the answer is less important than the question...

By important does one mean beneficial?

 

 

In an absolute sense I would say no - we will all live our lives and die regardless of our IQ.

From the perspective of Dao and God, all being are treated the same.

From the perspective of the nature of mind, high and low IQ is equally embraced and represented.

 

In a relative sense, I would say it depends.

To the extent a higher IQ is associated with one's experience of leading a more fulfilling life and contributing in a positive way to those around her - yes, IQ is valuable.

To the extent it is associated with unhappiness (neurosis, anxiety, psychosis, social awkwardness), exploited, and used to the detriment of our neighbors and our planet, then I would say it is an obstacle, both individually and collectively.

 

A high IQ is very important for one to be successful as a mathematician, a hacker, a doctor, and a serial killer.

Not so important necessarily for one committed to cultivate Dao, a martial artist, a petty thief, or an empath.

Not to say it won't help any avocation or potentially get in the way, depending on one's associated conditioning and emotional and psychological make up.

[3bob]

Brian, is that a "Susie Q" you're talking about?

Edited November 3, 2014 by 3bob

[thelerner]

I think intelligence is a great tool but its one of many. The problem, at times, with great intelligence is lack of street smarts/common sense. Also thinking expertise in one area will naturally and effortlessly carry on to others.

[Brian]

Brian, is that a "Susie Q" you're talking about?

I do have a predilection for Susie Qs...

[mike 134]

I'm not sure about IQ, but high intelligence, when considered by itself has absolutely no drawbacks whatsoever. Out of all the human attributes, I think its the most important factor in determining how successful you are in life. It opens a lot of doors for you (especially career wise) that are simply closed off to those who are not intelligent.

 

Its true that people who are really smart are oftentimes socially awkward, but you still have a decent shot at life even with no other attributes. You won't make it in business, but you can definitely crack into IT, engineering, and even medicine despite having terrible social skills and being butt ugly. I've seen this over and over again: people with high intelligence and poor social skills are more successful than those who are the opposite. The kids I knew in HS who were not so intelligent (even the popular ones) are universally lacking any kind of success in life. The smart kids who may have been awkward meanwhile are in grad school, med school, or doing post docs.

 

Of course, to be smart, AND good looking, AND have good social skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all.

 

[dust]

I'm not sure about IQ, but high intelligence, when considered by itself has absolutely no drawbacks whatsoever.

 

Really. None?

 

Well, I'm not sure what your definition of intelligence is, but if you're talking about people who do well in school and get "good" jobs in modern society, I think you're referring to IQ.

 

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970203674704574334752489414792?mod=googlenews_wsj&mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052970203674704574334752489414792.html%3Fmod%3Dgooglenews_wsj

http://phys.org/news172174436.html

-- higher intelligence and curiosity has been linked to higher likelihood of drug abuse

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201010/why-intelligent-people-drink-more-alcohol

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201010/why-intelligent-people-use-more-drugs

 

 

 

Out of all the human attributes, I think its the most important factor in determining how successful you are in life.

 

What does "successful in life" mean? Lots of money?

 

 

you can definitely crack into IT, engineering, and even medicine despite having terrible social skills and being butt ugly.

 

Your definition of intelligence includes being socially inept and very ugly?

 

 

 

The kids I knew in HS who were not so intelligent (even the popular ones) are universally lacking any kind of success in life. The smart kids who may have been awkward meanwhile are in grad school, med school, or doing post docs.

 

Again, "success in life". What is this? Has it anything to do with being happy?

Edited November 4, 2014 by dustybeijing

[mike 134]

Success to me is something external. Money, career, women, those are the major factors. Happiness is internal. You can feel happy without finding success. You can certainly be successful but miserable and empty on the inside.

 

 

Your definition of intelligence includes being socially inept and very ugly?

 

No, I am using that particular example to illustrate that high intelligence, even when accompanied by negative attributes, nevertheless suffices to earn one a decent career. There is a stereotype floating around that highly intelligent people are somehow strange, socially awkward, or physically unattractive, but that is far from the norm. I've known plenty of smart people who are awkward, and plenty who are not. The more awkward ones tend to study science, the not so awkward business, law, or medicine, but again there are plenty of exceptions. At any rate, both groups can find success, the common denominator being intelligence.

 

Does that mean that high intelligence is certain to bring about success ?? Of course not. You can fail no matter what your station in life. But my opinion is that high intelligence protects against failure more so than any other positive attribute. Said another way, if I were to select from being smart, being good looking, being physically strong, or having high social skills, and I could only select one, I would pick high intelligence every single time. In fact, other positive attributes don't even work effectively without their intelligent use. What good is having good social skills, if you don't have the intelligence necessary to use those skills to manipulate others? What use is there in being good looking (especially for women) if you don't have the intelligence necessary to use those looks to attract a quality mate, and not a loser ??

[manitou]

Success to me is something external. Money, career, women, those are the major factors. Happiness is internal. You can feel happy without finding success. You can certainly be successful but miserable and empty on the inside.

 

 

 

 

This is interesting. If success is something external, is it contingent on how other people perceive us? Is it all about what the outside world thinks?

[bluefire]

What good is having good social skills, if you don't have the intelligence necessary to use those skills to manipulate others?

So social skills are only good if you can manipulate others with them?

 

[mike 134]

This is interesting. If success is something external, is it contingent on how other people perceive us? Is it all about what the outside world thinks?

 

I'd hate to argue over semantics, but in my book, success is something that is accomplished that merits the admiration or jealousy of others. You may have a different definition, but it is certain that intelligence is a critical factor in determining my definition of success. If you think success is the same as personal happiness, well, that's okay, but in that case intelligence probably has a negative effect.

[Spotless]

IQ is a very general sense of the pattern recognition abilities and some other somewhat measurable abilities of the mental faculties.

The typical persons IQ dips about 20 points during a vacation - interesting to note and now you know why it takes a bit to jump back in the work hat when you return from a vacation.

 

The high IQ individual has many assets available to him/her in a variety of situations and so in general it is a great asset - but that said, it can completely obliterate inner searching for large slices of ones life and then things can crumble in intolerable ways.

 

We see very high suicide rates among doctors as an example. They typically have relatively high IQs or at the least a high retention rate for information. It should also be noted - most people with so called high IQs are in the 120-140 range which is not so high in the relative sense and they exhibit not that much more than those in the 110-120 range.

 

Intuition does not require a high IQ and is often ill-served by mental blinders, big egos and too many statistical facts running the gauntlet inside ones head - they act as silencers and whips against the whispers of the intuition.

It is also possible to have a much richer and more fascinating inner dialog which is one of the main obstacles in awakening.

 

Any IQ is only as important as the balance within. Forrest Gump is a very good persona of a wonderful possible person.

In my life most of the wealthiest people I know - the very wealthy - are not high IQ, several of them would probable be in the lower end of above average and at least one or two were just dogs but great at making money. Certainly a few are very bright and they have become good friends but none of them share the inner life which at some point will become a problem for them (and often a race to grow - but what an uphill battle it becomes by then).

Edited November 6, 2014 by Spotless

[Taomeow]

I'd hate to argue over semantics, but in my book, success is something that is accomplished that merits the admiration or jealousy of others.

 

I'm reading Nikola Tesla's biography. A very successful, popular, adored, admired, envied, famous man he was, and made money too. Einstein is quoted as answering the question, "How does it feel to be the smartest guy in the world?" with "I don't know, you have to ask Tesla." Tesla himself, however, thought that what he had was just the same talent and the same intellect and discipline that his mother had, plus the opportunities she didn't have. She was illiterate and too busy to prove anything to the world -- even though the house was full of her inventions, things she created and built just to make her own life, the life of a hard-working mother of seven, easier. (All of Tesla's great impact on modern technology may have come out of his admiring an electric egg beater his mother invented and built. She didn't show it to anyone outside the household.)

 

So, was she less successful than her famous son? She proved nothing to the world -- created nothing anyone noticed --

does it mean she was an existential failure?.. What do you people think?

Edited November 6, 2014 by Taomeow

[Nikolai1]

If she felt frustrated at her lack of opportunities, then yes, she was a failure.

[Taomeow]

If she felt frustrated at her lack of opportunities, then yes, she was a failure.

 

My point exactly: success or failure are determined internally -- no exceptions. External circus performances, however impressive, don't count. A monkey riding a bicycle in circles, surrounded by the cheering crowd of spectators... Good monkey, here's your banana.

 

It is unknown how Tesla's mother felt, but according to her son, she lived the same intense creative life as he did -- but because she did it without the need to struggle against "competition," unlike her son, she was spared his many phobias, obsessions, neurotic compulsions, meaningless rituals and the rest of those unhealthy manifestations of a never-ending internal conflict (between what you want to do for your muse and what you have to do for your ambitions, and/or against the ambitions of others) which external success provokes in an internally complex, smart, creative person almost by default. She was organic to her milieu, she used her stellar IQ to serve herself and her loved ones, so I doubt she felt like a failure. And that's the only thing that matters in determining success or failure -- the only judge of that who has a clue resides inside, he or she feels a certain way, and no amount of external measurements can impress this ultimate authority, of fool him or her for longer than the briefest moment. As my once-guru used to say, "fame is not a feeling."

Edited November 6, 2014 by Taomeow

[Brian]

Einstein's first wife is a similar story...

[doc benway]

I'd hate to argue over semantics, but in my book, success is something that is accomplished that merits the admiration or jealousy of others. You may have a different definition, but it is certain that intelligence is a critical factor in determining my definition of success. If you think success is the same as personal happiness, well, that's okay, but in that case intelligence probably has a negative effect.

 

This is a great illustration of how much perspective impacts our personal reality.

 

For me, success is liberation... freedom from the opinions and expectations of others.

The connection between success and the approval of others is abject failure.

It creates a life in which your view of your value is dependent on the opinion of other people.

It is enslaving and very limiting - the opposite of liberation.

And it's not unusual, it is in fact the norm. It is something we are conditioned to by everyone around us from birth until death.

 

Not saying I'm correct or incorrect, just contributing a very different perspective that has worked for me.

[doc benway]

 

What good is having good social skills, if you don't have the intelligence necessary to use those skills to manipulate others?

 

Social skills can also be used to help others without any need for manipulation or exploitation.

Arguably, the ability to manipulate and exploit others is a negative thing, not a social skill but rather abusive.

When I have been manipulated, I generally feel violated and upset.

Why turn that around and attempt to do that to others?

[manitou]

I'll bet the responses to this topic have a lot to do with each of our phases in life. A younger person will probably see Success as something he has yet to accomplish - making his mark in the world, raising a family, finding a career in which to support yourself.

 

On the other hand, a person who is more in the sunset of their life will look back and see that Success is, as Taomeow said, a 'feeling'. I would guess that most of the older people on this forum who have already established or retired from their careers look back and see Success differently.

 

Funny thing about Success. My brother, by all outward appearances, is Successful. An attorney in a coastal city in California, 3 kids all married now, he's the patriarch of a family getting larger by the day. a better man you could not meet. And yet - he knows that something is missing. He drinks a little excessively to suppress the voice that tells him that he's 'missing something'. We've talked about this - and yet he doesn't want to hear anything about inner exploration or going into his own character.

 

So by a certain measure, yes, he is very successful. Using another measure, he hasn't started the journey yet.

 

I think if we're waiting for the world to hand us our accolades, we're in a no-win situation. Better we make sure our own character is up to par, which is something each and every one of us can find satisfaction in. Then...success is something we judge for ourselves.