need assistance about historical things

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

古之善為士者，微妙玄通，深不可識。夫唯不可識，故強為之容。豫兮若冬涉川；猶兮若畏四鄰；儼兮其若容；渙兮若冰之將釋；敦兮其若樸；曠兮其若谷；混兮其若濁；孰能濁以靜之徐清？孰能安以久動之徐生？保此道者，不欲盈。夫唯不盈，故能蔽不新成。

 

this passage has often been translated along the lines of

The skilful masters (of the Dao) in old times, with a subtle and exquisite penetration, comprehended its mysteries, and were deep (also) so as to elude men's knowledge. As they were thus beyond men's knowledge, I will make an effort to describe of what sort they appeared to be. Shrinking looked they like those who wade through a stream in winter; irresolute like those who are afraid of all around them; grave like a guest (in awe of his host); evanescent like ice that is melting away; unpretentious like wood that has not been fashioned into anything; vacant like a valley, and dull like muddy water. Who can (make) the muddy water (clear)? Let it be still, and it will gradually become clear. Who can secure the condition of rest? Let movement go on, and the condition of rest will gradually arise. They who preserve this method of the Dao do not wish to be full (of themselves). It is through their not being full of themselves that they can afford to seem worn and not appear new and complete.

 

lifted from http://ctext.org/dao-de-jing

 

but I am starting to read it a bit differently,

mainly

豫兮若冬涉川；猶兮若畏四鄰；儼兮其若容；渙兮若冰之將釋；敦兮其若樸；曠兮其若谷；混兮其若濁；孰能濁以靜之徐清？孰能安以久動之徐生？保此道者，不欲盈。夫唯不盈，故能蔽不新成。

 

lets consider the first character

豫: yu, usually means nervous, shrinking, retracting - but it is also a short form for the country of Yuzhou, which comprises much of Henan province- where Laozi is commonly said to have been born.

so we could say "they walked through the frozen streams of Henan seeming to be afraid of neighbours of four sides"

next: 渙兮若冰之將釋

usually the character 將 is used here to describe how they controlled themselves-

but we can also use it to mean a general in an army, so it could be

"their generals withdrew like the melting ice," a kind of military tactic.

next 敦兮其若樸；曠兮其若谷

usually we say that 敦 refers to honesty, but it can also be "dun" which means a type of grain recepticle. So we can say that they hid their grain recepticals very simply, and then 曠 usually means vast, but it can also mean barren - so it could be "they hid their grain recepticles plainly in the barren valleys," or "their grain recepticles were plain/not obvious, as the valleys seemed to be so vast."

the section about unclarity and turbidity could simply mean that they did not make their actions obvious. why could they keep themselves so not obvious while they quietly with such clarity (how is it that they rested in that place so obviously and yet never aroused the attention of others). why is it that they were peaceful for so long while they worked hard to cultivate life?

they protected the way (could this refer to a water way? or an important trade route? military route? and didn't desire to be full (didn't desire military conquest in other places?). if you don't need to be full, you will be able to cover up your past achievements (you will be able to hide the fact that you have things worthy of being stolen).

 

This is an extremely unorthadox translation, so i want to ask some questions to history people here.

 

During the Western or Eastern Zhou Dynasty, or even during Shan dynasty - actually, also spring and autumn period in general, what was the situation like in the Central planes area (modern Day Henan, Shandong, Anhui etc)?

 

Are there any famous stories about very successful societies or generals in that area?

 

Is Laozi talking about a specific winter river, or just generally?

 

 

I understand that this translation may not be correct - but I want to hash it out to see.\

It doesn't go against any common principles in DDJ,

so at least it is consistant with Laozi's overall message.

 

Opinions?

 

[dust]

I understand that you're mainly concerned with historical stuff here, but I think some linguistic review would be helpful.

 

With modern punctuation, I'd read it as follows (and I might well be wrong, though I think not too far off)

 

豫兮！若冬涉川

猶兮！若畏四鄰

儼兮！其若容

渙兮！若冰之將釋

敦兮！其若樸

曠兮！其若谷

混兮！其若濁

孰能濁以靜之徐清？

孰能安以久動之徐生？

 

 

lets consider the first character

豫: yu, usually means nervous, shrinking, retracting - but it is also a short form for the country of Yuzhou, which comprises much of Henan province- where Laozi is commonly said to have been born.

so we could say "they walked through the frozen streams of Henan seeming to be afraid of neighbours of four sides"

 

Firstly, I'm not an expert, but the first mention of Henan as Yuzhou seems to be in the Rites of Zhou 周礼 which was written no earlier than 300BC -- after Laozi is said to have first written the TTC

 

Secondly, I'd suggest that the use of 豫 is from a later revision, as both the Guodian and Mawangdui texts use different text here. So, it could be that some later revisionist was referring to Laozi's homeland, but unlikely that it was his usage originally.

 

Thirdly, the grammar doesn't really work. 兮 being exclamatory, it'd read "Yu! Like crossing a stream in winter", which doesn't make much sense.

 

 

next: 渙兮若冰之將釋

usually the character 將 is used here to describe how they controlled themselves-

but we can also use it to mean a general in an army, so it could be

"their generals withdrew like the melting ice," a kind of military tactic.

 

It would sound quite plausible, except.. I don't think the word order works, to mean "generals withdrew like melting ice"

 

将 can refer to that which is going to happen, so I've read this as "like ice that is about to melt"

 

 

next 敦兮其若樸；曠兮其若谷

usually we say that 敦 refers to honesty, but it can also be "dun" which means a type of grain recepticle. So we can say that they hid their grain recepticals very simply, and then 曠 usually means vast, but it can also mean barren - so it could be "they hid their grain recepticles plainly in the barren valleys,"

 

This is ignoring 兮. And the use of 若 in each line:

 

敦兮! 其若樸 Honest/unpretentious! Like uncarved wood

曠兮! 其若谷 Barren/vacant! Like a valley

 

 

I hope this is somewhat helpful and not too negative. I like your ideas, just not sure they work.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

my teacher also disagrees with my idea here, sighting the main emphasis of the text as being about cultivating certain feelings and attitudes.

 

the daodejing really has a tonne of meaning- so sometimes when I come across things like this, it makes me wonder.

 

I agree with your points about grammar- I couldn't make the xi make sense with the context- i had wondered if it were inserted into the text as a very cryptic code - that could be pluasable especially if it were inlaid by later generation.

because Henan is such an important geographical area, being on the yellow river delta and so central to everything else - it is worthy of consideration how people may have used various texts to insert military information about the area.

 

I suspect I'm grasping at straws though .

[dust]

It's cool that you're looking for different perspectives, and certainly I wouldn't discount any of these ideas 100% -- grammar is grammar, but there's no reason writers couldn't have been inserting hints/references here and there.

 

Sorry I can't be more help historically. Hopefully someone like dawei or Taoist Texts will be able to shed some light...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

This might be of interest, from Tribute of Yu, Book of History, Spring and Autumn Period

 

荊河惟豫州。伊、洛、瀍、澗既入于河，滎波既豬。導菏澤，被孟豬。厥土惟壤，下土墳壚。厥田惟中上，厥賦錯上中。厥貢漆、枲，絺、紵，厥篚纖、纊，錫貢磬錯。浮于洛，達于河

 

The Jing (mountain) and the He were (the boundaries of) Yu Zhou. The Yi, the Luo, the Chan, and the Jian were conducted to the He. The (marsh of) Rong-bo was confined within its proper limits. The (waters of that of) Ge were led to (the marsh of) Meng-zhu. The soil of this province was mellow; in the lower parts it was (in some places) rich, and (in others) dark and thin. Its fields were the highest of the middle class; and its contribution of revenue was the average of the highest class, with a proportion of the very highest. Its articles of tribute were varnish, hemp, fine cloth of dolichos fibre, and the boehmerea. The baskets were full of chequered silks, and of fine floss silk. Stones for polishing sounding-stones were rendered when required. They floated along the Luo, and so reached the He.

 

 

Also, Yu the Great, 大禹, did much of the land division, as you will see at the above link. He certainly wouldn't be referred to simply as a general though.

 

I thought of the granary reference before too, just in as much as it creates the image of having great wealth but still being empty of egotism. As for reference to generals, it might be implied. It seems that much of the word play was intended, at least to the point that alternative possible meanings did not stray from other Daoist counsels.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[dawei]

Firstly, I'm not an expert, but the first mention of Henan as Yuzhou seems to be in the Rites of Zhou 周礼 which was written no earlier than 300BC -- after Laozi is said to have first written the TTC

 

Secondly, I'd suggest that the use of 豫 is from a later revision, as both the Guodian and Mawangdui texts use different text here. So, it could be that some later revisionist was referring to Laozi's homeland, but unlikely that it was his usage originally.

 

Just this point alone should be enough to realize the many character exchanges from the Guodian.

 

In this case, the GD seems to be 夜, and fits with night, or traveling at night... which may mean when crossing a river at night, one is cautious or hesitant (later word used in received text by Wang Bi, 豫).

 

 

This is an extremely unorthadox translation, so i want to ask some questions to history people here.

 

During the Western or Eastern Zhou Dynasty, or even during Shan dynasty - actually, also spring and autumn period in general, what was the situation like in the Central planes area (modern Day Henan, Shandong, Anhui etc)?

 

Are there any famous stories about very successful societies or generals in that area?

 

Is Laozi talking about a specific winter river, or just generally?

 

the dating is an interesting issue as is the question of what is going on during this time.... which is highly dependent on the date.

 

The Guodian is about 40% of the received text but most date it no later than 300BC. And if we allow for oral tradition of the work, then it would be earlier.

 

Although I've read an interesting brief that Laozi was born in Qin, the historical account seems to be Quren village in the district of Hu County of the State of Chu (today is Luyi County of Henan province) and he later worked in worked as an archivist in the Imperial Library of the Zhou Dynasty court. There is a Stele of the Sage Mother erected by the then emperor in 153 in Hu County.

 

So The Warring State period/Eastern Zhou (475-221BC) seems reasonable since it must pre-date the unification in 221BC...

 

But one thing which has bothered me and I don't find a lot written on it is: Chu was a large and powerful state and poised at the start to be a favorite to dominate/unify... And given that Zhou fell in ~ 770BC, and it was a disastrously fragmented 'warring state' time, why is Laozi even in eastern Zhou (?)

 

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

I understand that you're mainly concerned with historical stuff here, but I think some linguistic review would be helpful.

 

With modern punctuation, I'd read it as follows (and I might well be wrong, though I think not too far off)

 

豫兮！若冬涉川

猶兮！若畏四鄰

儼兮！其若容

渙兮！若冰之將釋

敦兮！其若樸

曠兮！其若谷

混兮！其若濁

孰能濁以靜之徐清？

孰能安以久動之徐生？

 

Firstly, I'm not an expert, but the first mention of Henan as Yuzhou seems to be in the Rites of Zhou 周礼 which was written no earlier than 300BC -- after Laozi is said to have first written the TTC

 

Secondly, I'd suggest that the use of 豫 is from a later revision, as both the Guodian and Mawangdui texts use different text here. So, it could be that some later revisionist was referring to Laozi's homeland, but unlikely that it was his usage originally.

 

Thirdly, the grammar doesn't really work. 兮 being exclamatory, it'd read "Yu! Like crossing a stream in winter", which doesn't make much sense.

 

As a Chinese speaker, may I say a few words perhaps to clarify the comments above.

 

豫兮！若冬涉川

豫: take precaution; be careful; cautious

兮 this character was often used in classics as an exclamation mark.

若: seems like

冬: winter

涉: stepping; walking

川: a big river

 

In order to make a logical interpretation of the first line, one would consider the latter metaphorically.

 

若冬涉川 : It seems like one is walking on a river in the winter.

 

The phase "in the winter" has the implication that there are snows causing the river to be frozen. However, there are some thin ice spots on the river. Therefore, one must take precaution when walking on the river. Thus, the proper interpretation would be:

 

豫兮！若冬涉川

"Hey, be careful! It seems like you are walking on a river with thin ice."

 

I think there is a similar statement in English:

"Hey! You're on thin ice."

 

Note:

This philosophical line was written in a Chinese classic format. In order to interpret the classics, one must consider to look at the keywords; and try to link the logical thoughts together. In this case, the keyword is 冬 (winter) which implicate white snow. The second keywords is 川 (river). By common sense, we knew that the water in a river was frozen in the winter. There are some soft spots covered with thin ice. Thus, one must be careful when stepping on the river.

 

What I am trying to say is that one should interpret the classics with logic rather than the direct translation for each character. Good luck in your classic study!

 

 

Edited November 3, 2014 by ChiDragon

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

As a Chinese speaker, may I say a few words perhaps to clarify the comments above.

 

豫兮！若冬涉川

豫: take precaution; be careful; cautious

兮 this character was often used in classics as an exclamation mark.

若: seems like

冬: winter

涉: stepping; walking

川: a big river

 

In order to make a logical interpretation of the first line, one would consider the latter metaphorically.

 

若冬涉川 : It seems like one is walking on a river in the winter.

 

The phase "in the winter" has the implication that there are snows causing the river to be frozen. However, there are some thin ice spots on the river. Therefore, one must take precaution when walking on the river. Thus, the proper interpretation would be:

 

豫兮！若冬涉川

"Hey, be careful! It seems like you are walking on a river with thin ice."

 

I think there is a similar statement in English:

"Hey! You're on thin ice."

 

Note:

This philosophical line was written in a Chinese classic format. In order to interpret the classics, one must consider to look at the keywords; and try to link the logical thoughts together. In this case, the keyword is 冬 (winter) which implicate white snow. The second keywords is 川 (river). By common sense, we knew that the water in a river was frozen in the winter. There are some soft spots covered with thin ice. Thus, one must be careful when stepping on the river.

 

What I am trying to say is that one should interpret the classics with logic rather than the direct translation for each character. Good luck in your classic study!

 

 

Also as a Chinese speaker myself, I would generally agree, with one caveat: you are totally right about the grammar, because Xi totally like an !, but about the textual meaning, I have to strongly disagree on one point.

There ought to be no perfect translation of DDJ, because, at least in modern Chinese thinking, DDJ has so much change inside of the potential character meaning, that it works somewhat in the same fashion as yijing (in that you can interpret it differently in accordance with current situations and understanding).

 

That is at least my current understanding.

[ChiDragon]

Also as a Chinese speaker myself, I would generally agree, with one caveat: you are totally right about the grammar, because Xi totally like an !, but about the textual meaning, I have to strongly disagree on one point.

There ought to be no perfect translation of DDJ, because, at least in modern Chinese thinking, DDJ has so much change inside of the potential character meaning, that it works somewhat in the same fashion as yijing (in that you can interpret it differently in accordance with current situations and understanding).

 

That is at least my current understanding.

 

Have you read any modern interpretation by some well known and knowledgeable native scholars....???

 

 

PS....

We just cannot come to a standing still. If there is something that we don't know or not sure of, then we have to rely on some reliable sources.

Edited December 27, 2014 by ChiDragon

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

DDJ is one of my main research projects, so I've read rather a lot on the subject.

Personally speaking, I'm not a big fan of academic Daoism because none of the scholars have good credentials in xiudao, which in my opinion is the root of Laozi's thought.

I personally prefer to check laozi against older works,

especially chan wei, heshanggong, and other laozi commentaries. It is just a personal feeling that they are more accurate.

 

One thing that I have been seeing quite often in post guodian version of laozi is that there are quite a number of references to places in ancient China. I mean character wise, there are places that use characters for areas of sichuan, anhui, fujian, henan, and the like. It makes me wonder if more recent DDJ texts may have hidden some information relevant to those places.

the fact that they are not grammatically consistent is certainly a drawback to my theory, and so that is why i asked on here.

 

if you want to have a look at some of my written work, you can check out the empty vessel spring 2014 issue. It has a short piece about laozi's relationship with neidan. That way its easier to be more clear that I'm not talking purely out of my hat about this stuff (although the final draft on the article does have one or two mistakes, it is a fairly decent piece).

[dawei]

DDJ is one of my main research projects, so I've read rather a lot on the subject.

Personally speaking, I'm not a big fan of academic Daoism because none of the scholars have good credentials in xiudao, which in my opinion is the root of Laozi's thought.

I personally prefer to check laozi against older works,

especially chan wei, heshanggong, and other laozi commentaries. It is just a personal feeling that they are more accurate.

 

One thing that I have been seeing quite often in post guodian version of laozi is that there are quite a number of references to places in ancient China. I mean character wise, there are places that use characters for areas of sichuan, anhui, fujian, henan, and the like. It makes me wonder if more recent DDJ texts may have hidden some information relevant to those places.

the fact that they are not grammatically consistent is certainly a drawback to my theory, and so that is why i asked on here.

 

if you want to have a look at some of my written work, you can check out the empty vessel spring 2014 issue. It has a short piece about laozi's relationship with neidan. That way its easier to be more clear that I'm not talking purely out of my hat about this stuff (although the final draft on the article does have one or two mistakes, it is a fairly decent piece).

 

This article?

RenTianZhiDao 人天之道

The Way of Man and Nature

[ChiDragon]

Also as a Chinese speaker myself, I would generally agree, with one caveat: you are totally right about the grammar, because Xi totally like an !, but about the textual meaning, I have to strongly disagree on one point.

There ought to be no perfect translation of DDJ, because, at least in modern Chinese thinking, DDJ has so much change inside of the potential character meaning, that it works somewhat in the same fashion as yijing (in that you can interpret it differently in accordance with current situations and understanding).

 

That is at least my current understanding.

 

I would not come to this conclusion but leave an open mind. You know 一山還有一山髙(There is one mountain always higher than another).

 

You might want to change your mind if you can get a hold of this book written by 陳鼓應(Chen Ku Ying):

老子註譯及評介

ISBN 962- 231- 107- 5

 

I have the contents of this book posted somewhere, here, sometime ago. Let me see if I can find it again.

 

 

Edited:

Okay, I have found it.

You can read it here and tell me what you think....!?

老子註譯及評介

Edited December 31, 2014 by ChiDragon