Kunlun Seminars

[Cameron]

Just look at it like it's a movie and all these online characters are shadows of how they are in "real life".

[joeblast]

This thread is becoming a joke; pointless bickering. I'm not going to read it anymore. I honestly dont see anyone gaining anything from this continued foolishness and nitpicking.

[DentyDao]

we determine values for ourselves, based on our information and experiences. and i believe my criticism to be of value to those who would otherwise follow blindly or be enticed enough to travel across the country when almost everything they're reading says that this guy could be the real deal.

 

could i be wrong? sure. but obviously i don't think that's likely.

 

If you really wanted to find out if Max is the real deal, you would have the courage to talk to Max personally and study his system in a sincere way. A weekend seminar is not enough, you have to actually practice the system for a couple years to really know something about it. Stop pretending you are on some quest to help people.

 

Besides, the investment of a few hundred dollars and a plane ticket is really nothing to bitch about. I know people who have spent 10's of thousands, given up their jobs and dropped out of society to meet a teacher with no garentees they would get anything out of it, so what is the great difficulty you are sparing people from?

[forestofsouls]

I think we can safely seperate the awakening crowd into 2 different groups.

 

Those who don't beleive that Dragons exist and those who do.

 

I think a better distinction is between those who are seeking power and those who are seeking enlightenment. Most of us probably fall in the middle. I would say power seekers use spiritual cultivation as a means to an end--- to become something bigger, better, more powerful. Becoming an Immortal, for example. Those who seek enlightenment don't care about what they can do, they are seeking liberation from the game altogether, powers and all. Becoming a Buddha or Self-Realized.

 

Many Taoists I've met have been interested in power--- martial power, healing power, spiritual power. Most of the Buddhists I've met are more interested in dealing with whatever comes up--- good, bad or ugly. Of course, the one can learn from the other. Some degree of power, especially health, makes cultivation easier. On the other hand, anything gained can, and will be lost. Even the legendary gods and immortals die, one day.

 

Besides, the investment of a few hundred dollars and a plane ticket is really nothing to bitch about. I know people who have spent 10's of thousands, given up their jobs and dropped out of society to meet a teacher with no garentees they would get anything out of it, so what is the great difficulty you are sparing people from?

 

That would take a lot of faith in your teacher. A LOT of faith.

[Cameron]

I fundamentally disagree with you forestofsouls.

 

You don't need to seek power.

 

You are ALREADY powerful.

 

When you see what that really means I think your also on the road to enlightenment.

[Trunk]

One moment with one individual ...

This is only worth talking about, imo, because it is part of a pattern at your school. Seems to me that everyone likes the method, that people on the inside have a fun time, but that there are consistent skirmishes around the perimeter. What has gone on in this thread is typical of (at least a substantial part of) those skirmishes. imo, If you could get new insight into the dynamic of this thread - and somehow change the angle of your approach, it would substantially diminish the rough edges. My opinion is that because this conversation is typical of the difficulty, it has opportunity.

 

Two of the issues that needlessly make your school a target are: 1. too much sensationalism, and 2. dealing with scholars. As I keep saying, I think that with some minor adjustments some of these problems would just disappear. I think that at least some of those that you mischaracterize as some variety of asshole actually are just frustrated brainiacs.

 

My suggestion re: this is quoted below. Maybe worth something, maybe not. Could be that I'm simply off on all of the above; it happens.

you know, some of the contentious parts of this thread were about "scholarly explanation". You could've said, much earlier, "I don't think I have the sort of explanation you're looking for, maybe you guys will come up with something in the next year or so". I would've thought (and I bet most people here would think), "wow, cool, that guy is humble" and we'd all be on your team to help. Over the next year or so this community would say all sorts of witty stuff about your method (which will happen anyway), but it'd be like we're doing it together instead of fractured by hostility.

 

On a related topic, as I've said before, my opinion (fwiw, everybody has to make their own) is that Lama Max is extraordinarily developed, and I personally think that criticisms around that are mistaken. My observations to back up that opinion:

- During the workshop it was clear to me that he had the tissue-changing practices deeply in his body. (Fascia, tendon changing, opening and closing of the joints, almost certainly the marrow washing but I can't really see that deep so I can only say %99 on that because of everything else. To get those anywhere near his level takes many years of correct practice). I know because I've hung out with an extremely accomplished internal martial artist, and you learn to see (some of) the body differences. So, as far as Taoist physical body changing (whether or not he got it from a Taoist system), it is just obviously there to me.

 

- Personally I didn't feel any of his energetics during the seminar, but during the private - as we were talking about the nuts and bolts of meditation (which he is quite capable of doing) - he would access the states & maneuvers that he was talking about. Not showy, and not even intended to be shown I don't think; I think it was just natural for him to at least somewhat manifest the states~maneuvers as he mentioned them. I've sat in schools where the whole method was to meditate on the teacher, and it was unmistakable - to me - that he was fluent with Deep Foundations. Like I said, I felt nothing (of his emanations) during the seminar, but I'm far from being able to feel everything - and I assume that he simply wasn't employing the energetics that I'm familiar with feeling at that time.

 

So, that's my basis of opinion that he's developed. Maybe it'll compensate some for the raucous I'm generating otherwise.

 

I'm tired with this.

Taking time off.

May we all be groovy with time.

[Sahaj Nath]

If you really wanted to find out if Max is the real deal, you would have the courage to talk to Max personally and study his system in a sincere way. A weekend seminar is not enough, you have to actually practice the system for a couple years to really know something about it. Stop pretending you are on some quest to help people.

 

Besides, the investment of a few hundred dollars and a plane ticket is really nothing to bitch about. I know people who have spent 10's of thousands, given up their jobs and dropped out of society to meet a teacher with no garentees they would get anything out of it, so what is the great difficulty you are sparing people from?

 

1.) i'm not pretending anything.

 

2.) a weekend seminar is more than enough to know some things about a person. i don't know everything about him, but i know that i came away feeling gravely deceived for many, many reasons. after the free lecture i could have called it quits and gone home, but i felt that would have been premature. so not only did i stay, but i encouraged others to stay and give it a chance as well. it was only money, after all. money had NOTHING to do with it. if you've been paying attention, you'd know that. i didn't ask for a refund. and when i got it, i was still perfectly fine with paying for the private session that i had.

 

3.) nothing you've said here deals with anything that i've written about the matter up to this point. so what ax are you grinding?

 

4.) you made me think about whether my disdain for the whole thing was unfair, and i appreciated that because i valued your perspective (before this, anyway). when i began to openly rethink my attitude about max as a person, i was attacked. and after we called a truce, i swallowed everything else. i had already been swallowing most of the crap. i'm not swallowing anymore. (i can already hear the puns stirring in people's heads.)

 

5.) you and i obviously have different core values, and that's fine. but it doesn't make you righteous, any more than my position makes me righteous. i'm not a saint. not even close. the saints weren't even saints. but i have the right to speak my mind, and sometimes that's confrontation.

 

6.) your argument is kind of ridiculous. for one, it's not a matter of courage. and secondly, i didn't go there looking for a system to study; i went there seeking the advice of a master on a few specific issues, and that went nowhere. i told the man that i do healing work for a living, and as i was talking to him about a patient of mine he cut in to spend at least 10 of our 45 minutes explaining to me the 5 element theory of the body. WTF? what's that? like page 20 of EVERY qigong book out there? and that's not even the worst example; it's just the easiest one.

 

and third, you wouldn't invest thousands unless you believed the odds were favorable. of course there's no guarantee. that's not at all the point.

 

7.) what difference is it to you, anyway? if you think i'm wrong, SHOW ME. i'm not incapable of changing my view. i'm sorry if i come across as too aggressive when i write, but this is how i write, nonetheless. i really thought about what you said before. and i think you were correct that one weekend can't tell the whole story; but it told me (and many others) enough to know we'd be better of looking elsewhere.

 

 

if i missed my opportunity with a truly amazing master, then perhaps a truly amazing master isn't what i need, and i should refine my search. which i think i'm doing. like, for now at least, not searching anymore.

 

8.) in the spirit of your "snap-judgments" perspective, you're more than welcome to get to know me off the forum and then decide for yourself who you think i am and where you think i'm coming from. if you have the "courage," or whatever.

[Todd]

 

i got a number of private emails and messages from people who agreed with me but didn't want to catch any heat for it. so yeah, i felt like i shouldering a lot stuff on my own for a lot of people, and for the 'truth,' if that's the term you want to use.

 

it wasn't important for me to be the only one; in fact, it sucked to feel that way. my hope was to inspire others to come forward. the discrepancies didn't take a genius to see.

 

 

 

Thanks. I understand where you're coming from much better now.

[DentyDao]

Hundun,

 

It takes courage to develop faith in a teacher, you have to lay down and surrender. Not an easy thing to do no matter how impressed you are with a teacher.

 

Ask your self this, what are you trying to accomplish with all this questioning. You want to be convinced that Max has something to offer, right? Why not go to Max and really sincerely try to find out. No one here should or could truly convince you that Max is worth your time but you.

 

You are so busy looking for questions, start looking for answers, ay.

 

If your not interested, all your words are pointless, focus on finding someone who you can value as a teacher. It's pretty simple.

 

Mo Pai consists of a few simple techniques. That's it, you can become immortal with for or five simple exercises and you don't have to know what it all means and what this or that energy does or doesn't do. Of course, whether success in that school is your tien ming is another story. Just to say, Max might not have all the answers, but that doesn't mean he can't teach people something real and effective.

 

You didn't feel the transmission from Max, have you considered that Kunlun is not your Tien Ming, meaning you are not meant for it and it is not meant for you. This is perfectly possible; and the person sitting next to you might be come enlightened from Kunlun, that could happen too.

 

I can't speak for Max, but Kunlun is high, high level. David knows their school well. So, I think there is probably something to it. You need to stop wasting time and move on, really.

[Mal]

Wow, I have been here for a year and I have never seen everybody bicker Porn star Ron was before my time unfortunately. Does this happen often? Small group dynamics make me laugh after learning about it in social psychology. Actually all social interaction makes me laugh it's like a puppet show. All I suggest is if you don't agree with people attack the words, not the people.

 

Anyhow I’ve noticed that I am quick to anger recently, little explosions over misunderstandings and misremembered past. Snapped off a few posts (managed to edit this one before I sent it, but I’m still a water drinking office worker

 

Caused by changes in my practices, I think so. Problem with the method, no. It’s not bad anger, I am aware of the change. Like most of us I constantly monitor myself, looking for changes in my personality thoughts or actions, it’s so hard to act normal all the time hahaha

 

I get something great out of this thread Super Snip of Trunk :-

 

This is worth talking about,everyone likes the method, people on the inside have a fun time. Two of the issues that needlessly make your school a target are: 1. too much sensationalism, and 2. dealing with scholars. With some minor adjustments these problems would just disappear.

 

And because I’m only good enough to resist for so long, I am still a bad person and do not deserve any sort of power. The only reason I am doing Kunlun is because the meditation lets me sit on my arse for 50min and be happy and still. Don't care how it works, all explanation is labeling anyway.

 

Peace everyone. Be easy and you are right

[Cameron]

My sense is the board will make a gradual transition from talking about the huge characters connected with the practice(Max, Chris, Han etc) to actually just focusing on the practice and then just focus on peoples experience with the practice(with an eye on what is and is not appropriate to talk about..that needs to come from Chris).

 

So..I think all this bickering will be over with by 2008. People will have enough on there hands just dealing with there own shit to start talking about the shit of the guy that brought the practice to the public(Which is Chris).

[Sahaj Nath]

Hundun,

 

It takes courage to develop faith in a teacher, you have to lay down and surrender. Not an easy thing to do no matter how impressed you are with a teacher.

 

...

 

You didn't feel the transmission from Max, have you considered that Kunlun is not your Tien Ming, meaning you are not meant for it and it is not meant for you. This is perfectly possible; and the person sitting next to you might be come enlightened from Kunlun, that could happen too.

 

 

spiritual adolescence can sometimes be a pain in the ass, and i feel like that's where i am.

 

 

 

i DID feel Max's trasmission. i took it's gentleness for weakness, especially in light of what he didn't seem to know. it felt weaker than a reiki attunement. as the following week progressed i resolved myself to embracing exactly where i was. to just surrender and stop seeking. then i felt a sort of energetic breakthrough, with not-so-subtle stirrings, particularly in my spine, and it seemed to have a similar... signature, i guess, to what max had transmitted. i'm no stranger to breakthroughs, but i couldn't swear that max's transmission didn't have something to do with it. it made me confused and a little more frustrated about how things went at the seminar. i wanted to create a space to open up a dialog about it, but that was when i got shut down by mantra.

 

i think you may be right. the person sitting next to me just might gain a great deal from what Max is teaching. that's the only reason i shared it with two of my guys.

 

my greatest growth periods have been in times of greatest surrender. i totally believe surrender to be a far more important ingredient than technique.

 

 

your response was well-put. thank you. i will be thinking about what you wrote for a while.

 

 

i think i'm done looking for a teacher, though. at least for the time being.

 

 

i still have so much left to do with what i already have.

 

time to move on. you're right.

 

thanks again.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Im looking forwards for when Max hits australia preferably sydney!

 

Sean,

 

Can you tell us alittle about what your Sifu knows of Kunlun and Max's branch if possible?

 

kind regards

WYG

[DentyDao]

My feeling now is that 95% of these discussions center around things we can only really answer for ourselves, alone.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Agree 100% with Sean, sit long enough all the answers will appear and things will manifest for you!

[DentyDao]

Im looking forwards for when Max hits australia preferably sydney!

 

Sean,

 

Can you tell us alittle about what your Sifu knows of Kunlun and Max's branch if possible?

 

kind regards

WYG

 

David knows Max by reputation, which is mixed in Asia at least. But, David did say that it doesn't mean Max's teaching is not good, he really doesn't know one way or another. He did express his personal opinion, but that is really beside the point for most of you (at least it should be); and even in light of that, Max could very well be at a good level.

 

Kunlun is a well known and very respected school/pai in China. There are some very high masters in this line still today. David knew well that late lineage holder and had a chance to meet his successor who was present at David's acceptence cerimony. Kunlun has nothing what so ever to do with Lei Shan Dao, a lineage that belongs to Da Mo the famous originator of Chan/Zen. Lei Shan Dao, of course retains the full transmission of the sacred Ling Bao that feel down to Da Mo in the cave, having little to do with modern Zen.

 

What David says is simple, 'You should know a few things about Kunlun before you open your mouth.' It is a high, high method that takes decades to realize and become a true master of, just like everything else, the rest is child's play.

 

Does Max have it? Could be; if what Chris says is true, their is much Max does not reveal You'll find this is typical of most Daoists who actually know something, they like to keep you guessing. Like I said at the seminar, it's good... worth a closer look for sure.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Thanks Mate,

 

I didnt know Lei Shan Dao was some how connected to Damo?? Do you think some of it could be mixed with the shaolin arts (original shaolin) muscle tendon changing for example?

 

KunLun i havent tried as i dont like to try things without a teacher but am very courious about it i must say. I would be more towards LSD though for some reason. Do you know of any in Australia i can meet and train with?

 

respectfully

WYG

[freeform]

[gendao]

- During the workshop it was clear to me that he had the tissue-changing practices deeply in his body. (Fascia, tendon changing, opening and closing of the joints, almost certainly the marrow washing but I can't really see that deep so I can only say %99 on that because of everything else. To get those anywhere near his level takes many years of correct practice). I know because I've hung out with an extremely accomplished internal martial artist, and you learn to see (some of) the body differences. So, as far as Taoist physical body changing (whether or not he got it from a Taoist system), it is just obviously there to me.

Interesting, was this through energy-sensing or visual inspection?

 

I also believe that surrendering (ego letting go) is a big part of it. Before the first session, I prayed that I surrendered to and had faith in God/soul/universe, whatever. And I think it helped (along with many other things including a "facilitator" friend).

 

I did open this past weekend in L.A. on 11/10/2007, and in no less-than-dramatic fashion. We're talking the full-blown meal deal, and anyone there could probably testify. I'll probably post a write-up later - and also welcome any impressions from anyone else who was there and happened to notice me in the back. So, a first step in the rest of my life now, but far from the last...

 

Now, I don't have a huge problem with personal conflicts, as long as everyone is being real. A real fight is better than a false pax (and suppressed emotions that will stay stuck waiting for release later). I saw some of that during this past weekend as well. As I said, this has less to do with kunlun than group dynamics. You'll find the same drama in a bowling league or the PTA...or even yes, pigeons. There's probably better ways to handle it, but that is like unknotting a wet hairball. For there NOT to be any conflicts, everyone would have to be fully self-realized and realized of everyone else's nature as well in order to interact authentically yet seamlessly.

 

Well, I think most of the criticisms here concern the peripherals - personalities and technical interpretations of the method. But, I can now personally bear witness that the method itself (whatever exactly it does) can produce the promised results (whatever exactly it is). You plant a kunlun seed, give it enough sunlight & water...and you will grow a kunlun tree. There IS proof in this pudding, regardless of all the sideshow debates here (not that I have a problem with them, either).

Edited November 13, 2007 by vortex

[Yoda]

I can now personally bear witness that the method itself (whatever exactly it does) can produce the promised results (whatever exactly it is).

 

 

Vortex,

 

Thanks for the post!! I very much look forward to your report!!!

 

Somehow, I had thought that you were going to the Phoenix class. I'm sorry I'll miss seeing you there, but I'm glad you had a good time. Any other bums at the LA seminar?

 

Yoda

[gendao]

 

Vortex,

 

Thanks for the post!! I very much look forward to your report!!!

 

Somehow, I had thought that you were going to the Phoenix class. I'm sorry I'll miss seeing you there, but I'm glad you had a good time. Any other bums at the LA seminar?

 

Yoda

Well, I'm pretty new to the whole cultivation scene. So, I don't have a strong theoretical background here. But I would eventually like to gain a better technical understanding of what exactly goes on.. Of course, fortunately that's not a prerequisite to doing the practice.

 

No, I will be there too!

 

I was originally only going to PHX, but decided on L.A. at the last minute as well due to some cost-cutting I was able to get there. Honestly, I think there was some divine intervention (THANKS GUIDES!!! ) involved in hooking me up with all this. I really met and connected with the right people for me.

 

I saw Craig at L.A.. But I didn't really notice any others that I recognized as Taobums. It was mostly a new crowd, but also some regulars and familiar faces.

[rain]

---"

Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[Yoda]

Non technical writeups work too!!

 

I'll see you in Phoenix!

[Mal]

 

Mal - what you said about having anger outbursts:

 

We havent conversed much, but I feel a connection with you on some level. I'm betting that you're not normally an angry person, and that confrontation is your least liked type of human interaction. (please correct me if i'm off completely). I'm of a similar constitution - and... well, I dont know if this will help, but become a little more curious about anger. You might be an easy-going, laid back kind of guy on the outside but inside there may be constant anger. Because it's constant it's hard to notice, but just be more aware when you get angry and what it feels like, what your facial expression feels like whilst really angry, what it feels like to be angry with other people present and what it feels like to be angry by yourself and what you may do to hide and mask away the anger from yourself and from others...

 

Sorry for the unsolicited advice!

 

Cheers Freeform no apology necessary. Your observation is scary in how accurate it is, thanks for noticing me.

 

Long ago yeas before I started any of this I was scared, afraid and hated people. I still ignore my feelings and let things slide rather than confront people 99% of the time. I will investigate this more, short reply. Going to meditate

[Mantra68]

So I vow to learn from Mantra and Hundun (and the others) with their 'loud and intrusive' emotionality - with all the fuss and noise and contradictions and victimhood that that brings and as I'm advising my girlfriend perhaps it would be usefull for her (and the others) to learn from our calm, tempered, perhaps cold and distant natures - with all that that brings to the table.

 

One thing I see is Trunk - very quietly and sincerely trying to really make a difference in respect to the internet representation of Kunlun. Ofcourse he gets drowned out with all the colourful drama that goes on. Hundun has a mixture of characteristics - one is the head-heavy semantic information-seeking side and the other is a very healthy mamalian terretoriality side.

 

I believe Trunk needs to be listened to more carfully (and the result would, imo, line up with Hundun's scholarly side) - He's trying to temper the feminine, emotional, colourful, sensational sales pitch of Kunlun to balance with the rational, logical and specific side of life. I think the result of it (of bringing the sensational with the rational) would be something very simple and uncomplicated.

 

I'm sorry Mantra - as much as I like Kunlun and as much as I enjoy your presence, and Cam and even Max who I have not met in person - you really are full of contradictions - it's not a bad thing, it's just that it will attract people who enjoy contradictions and detract people who dont.

 

It just seems you tell people what they want to hear, plus a bit extra - because that's how it feels for you to be studying with Max... So in the book you write that the first level is to do with bringing the energy up and then here, where everyone is conscerned with that, you say that Kunlun is all about bringing the energy down. In truth I've found that it does both... but when someone scholarly and interested in clarity of information (rather than intensity of experience) comes across this, they just get confused and their mind can't possibly allow any of the rest of what Max or you say to be true.

Thanks for your input.

 

I have had some time to think about these issues. One place I saw problems was with giving people direct answers to things they are ideally supposed to discover themselves.

 

IMHO a good teacher presents clues or even opposing ideas around a truth (or method even) and it is the student's task to determine the essence of the thing in question. Max does this and since I know his process, I enthusiastically take up the challenge of self-discovery. The result is that my satori moments are MINE and so much more valuable to me because I have worked for them.

 

In that light, people coming to you in a very impatient, aggressive way demanding answers to things that you know are best discovered personally, have a hard time with being encouraged to internalize the desire and look within.

 

Can you imagine if coming up through school, your instructors just gave you all of the answers to the tests you were taking?

 

When Max says he is not a martial artist yet he has mastered many martial arts forms, there is a simple truth that would explain this contradiction: he is only interested in the enlightenment practices these days.

 

Like if someone told you they were an alcoholic yet they do not drink. The logical conclusion is that this person has quit drinking but still has the history.

 

As to the flow of energy in Kunlun, it is the downward water flow that draws up the fire to be met and then cooled at the heart creating the steam of bliss, or two polarities merging to create a third magnetic potential.

 

Now if you are a very literal person you will reject seemingly contradictory statements as false rather than to consider how they can be true.

 

I can go line for line on any questions if necessary, but I prefer to suggest the following:

 

Unlock your own mystery

 

I look at this whole quest for understanding as solving a series of puzzles. I think you really have to like solving puzzles to finish the path.

 

I am very fortunate and infinitely grateful that I have a teacher who understands the process and can take me the whole way to Dragon Body. He knows when to give direct answers and he knows when to respond with a shrug and a look that tells you "this one is for you to figure out."

 

I am thankful that I have found a method that gives me the ability to unlock my own mystery.

 

That I have been able to convince my teacher that people other than our small group would like to know these things and to then begin sharing them and him with the world has been like a dream come true.

 

I am so happy for all of you who are benefiting from the book and the people who are able to come to the seminars. You know from direct experience how wonderful this practice is as you discover for yourselves your own amazing true nature.

 

I will continue to be as supportive of your efforts as I can.