Success in life. What is this? Has it anything to do with being happy?

[BaguaKicksAss]

BKA, I believe you hit the nail on the head with your last point above. I can relate to what you are saying. Generally speaking I have found people In third world countries to be happier than in first world countries as well. I have lived and/or done some kind of work with locals in Indonesia, East Timor and Cambodia to experience this. The reason for this in my opinion is because they have less than us. In the first world countries again generally speaking, the more we have the more we want. Peace FT

 

It is also amazing how relaxed the atmosphere is compared with here.

 

Now funny is half of them want to move to north america to live the wonderful rich life we have. I tried to explain to the folks in Haiti that here in Canada we can't afford an entire bottle of rum for the Lwa every single day... they didn't get it lolololol.

[Brian]

 

Have you not found this when traveling internationally? The difference is so obvious it is amazing. I of course mean the % of people compared with the % of people, not every single person.

There's definitely a trend there, and I think your model fits pretty nicely with "Western (sub)urban" -- but I believe you would rethink the whole thing if you spent a month hanging out in my neck of the woods. "Common folk" are much more common in my world than are those driven by accumulation of bragging rights or checking things off a list or whatever. Sure, those folks ARE more represented here than they would be in a village of mud huts somewhere but they are much less represented here than you would find in NYC or LA or Miami.

 

Guess my point is that the spectrum is pretty broad within the umbrella of "first world countries."

 

Personally, I don't have a mortgage, I don't have a car loan, I don't rush out to buy the latest gadgets (in fact, I often have them offered to me through my job and turn them down), I'm not a clothes horse, I don't compare myself to others based on the value of my house or the artwork hanging on my walls, I don't worry about being seen at the finer restaurants in town or being a theater snob or whatever. My releaxation is more likely to come from hiking or enjoying a sunset or hanging out at a local watering hole like The Town Pump (https://www.facebook.com/TheTownPumpTavern).

Edited November 5, 2014 by Brian

[C T]

BKA, I believe you hit the nail on the head with your last point above. I can relate to what you are saying. Generally speaking I have found people In third world countries to be happier than in first world countries as well. I have lived and/or done some kind of work with locals in Indonesia, East Timor and Cambodia to experience this. The reason for this in my opinion is because they have less than us. In the first world countries again generally speaking, the more we have the more we want. Peace FT

I dont think its because they have less... one of the main reasons is because the majority believes strongly in karma - this is coupled with the belief that if they adopt a greedy, materialistic attitude in this life, they will have to repay it in future lives.

 

They also believe that if they are not living in ideal conditions this life, as long as they do more good, make more offerings and prayers, then the gods & their ancestors will look kindly upon them and grant them a more favourable rebirth. Because of this, they tend to be generally quite contented with their 'now' conditions, knowing - and expecting - that what they do in this present existence in preparation for rebirth critically decides conditions in the next life. So they tend to hanker comparatively less than Westerners (generally speaking).

 

The above is true only up to the previous generation of Asians, and not applicable to a sector of Asians who do not hold to the concept of karma. The present generation have already been, to a large extent, greatly influenced by Western materialism and have adopted the carpe diem mantra.

 

This is from an Asian perspective.

Edited November 5, 2014 by C T

[tara]

Remember this song?

 

They say that Richard Cory owns one half of this whole town
With political connections to spread his wealth around
Born into society, a banker's only child
He had everything a man could want: power, grace, and style

But I work in his factory
And I curse the life I'm living
And I curse my poverty
And I wish that I could be
Oh I wish that I could be
Oh I wish that I could be
Richard Cory

The papers print his picture almost everywhere he goes
Richard Cory at the opera, Richard Cory at a show
And the rumor of his parties and the orgies on his yacht!
Oh he surely must be happy with everything he's got

But I, I work in his factory
And I curse the life I'm living
And I curse my poverty
And I wish that I could be
Oh I wish that I could be
Oh I wish that I could be
Richard Cory

He freely gave to charity, he had the common touch
And they were grateful for his patronage and they thanked him very much
So my mind was filled with wonder when the evening headlines read:
"Richard Cory went home last night and put a bullet through his head"

But I, I work in his factory
And I curse the life I'm living
And I curse my poverty
And I wish that I could be
Oh I wish that I could be
Oh I wish that I could be
Richard Cory

 

Paul Simon, 1966

[i am]

Wow you actually read all that? Thanks.

 

Well, like I said, I do want to retire. I think $2,000/month is pretty minimum if you're going to own the place you live, unless you inherit a house and land. I also value travel, including international travel.

 

I mean yeah, I could eat rice and grow a small garden (which I plan anyway), but still, food and all the other stuff I buy at the grocery store is realistically going to cost $200 a month. I a minimalist, in my way, but not an ascetic. Mortgage of maybe $600 for just land, if I'm lucky. Healthcare, even just catastrophic, is going to be close to $200. So we're already at $1,000, absolute minimum.

 

I will have some sort of vehicle (I currently have a 1978 pickup and that's kind of my style...). So insurance, a little gas, some maintenance, then hell, there's just stuff here and there you're going to spend money on. Put a few hundred a month into a retirement fund. I don't need the traditional retirement our grandparents had, but I want a point where I can live off what I saved, if I have to. But I plan to always be doing something. I do, however, refuse to be old and possibly somehow not fully functional, unable to meet my basic expenses, unable to work, and miserable. I will put money aside to avoid that.

 

I think $2-3,000 is a perfectly reasonable, small amount to realistically live simply, but mostly comfortably, in modern society. Only the young and the very very faithful can live on $1,000 or less and not have the stress of "what ifs" always nagging at the back of their mind.

 

And anyway, I'm talking about me. I haven't done serious math, but I have a good idea of the lifestyle I want, and what it would cost. I'm intelligent enough, competent and 90% of the time a pleasure to work with, if I do say so myself, and have the ability to get more education. I know there are jobs which can easily bring that amount of money, which would add up to nowhere near full time over a year. $20,000-$30,000 a year for contract working, for only part time hours, or only working maybe 6-8 months a year, is within reach to able people. So we're talking some sort of consulting that would bring a full time employee easily $70,000, which is really not all that much, though pa-LENTY to be completely comfortable (depending on where you live), but only doing it, at most, half time. A real job, but working just enough to meet my needs, as I define them.

 

Or so I tell myself.

[The Tao Of Alex]

Yeah that may be exactly how they "measure" , but if CT can be happy with Soya on his rice, or he may be happy with just the rice, maybe he could be happy without rice at all ( apart from being sustenance) , and if its so , then he has no measure of his happiness, he is never short of it , nor could he have more.

Interesting Stosh. I would posit though, that CT's new measure of happiness is now 'no rice'. I guess all things change, including what we define as happiness for ourselves?

Alex

[i am]

Yeah it can be a moving target. I think that's part of the problem for a lot of people...they spend so much time climbing to where they think they want to be, only to realize, once they're finally there, that's it's not what they really wanted.

 

As far as the title of the thread...it depends. I know he's talking about what modern society thinks, in the worst possible portrayal of modern society.

 

In the negative portrayal of modern society, i.e. everyone is shallow and money greedy and just think about sex, power and material goods - real happiness is not part of success. Just the appearance of happiness, or the achievement of what's supposed to make you happy based on the supposed values.

 

But real modern society is much more complex than that, as it's always been, and contains all sorts of people. I guess it depends on what kind of groups you tend to run with, but unless you're a lazy, slobby, underachiever who blames all their problems on other people and refuses to take responsibility and do something with their life, it's rare that someone will really criticize or think badly of you. Yeah there are shallow people who will judge you by your car and house, but most people, if you get to know them, will "forgive" all that.

 

If they see you're doing what you like/love, earn enough to keep the bills paid, show that you're motivated enough to hold a job, and are nice to people, more or less, do something socially and have hobbies, you'll be ok with them. But...yeah, will they call you successful? Not all of them, no. And the yacht club polo shirt with the collar turned up crowd will definitely not call that success.

 

In the circles I've found myself to be part of since getting out of school, anyone with a job they like, who is ahead of their bills with some spare money to play around with, who has some kind of social life and some hobbies is considered successful. Even by wealthy people who were born into money and made their own on top of that.

 

I was thinking of this more in terms of career but in life? I was getting into it a little..:

 

A job you like, which pays the bills and allows you to save, and spend if you care to spend. "Gainful employment", they call it. As much of a social life as you want. If you're happy with no friends and have none, cool. But if you want an active social life, you have one. You have interests/hobbies, and whether you really excel at them or not, you enjoy them and take part in them.

 

That's my basic description of success in life and yeah, it has everything to do with being happy.

 

Gainful employment, friends, hobbies. Hopefully some kind of spirituality in there somewhere, but I think that defines success in life, because it ought to make you happy. You can almost always be more happy...but like with my case, you need to do some soul searching to figure out if you're just never satisfied and are expecting to much, or if you've become complacent and are "settling" for a life that's less than you really want.

 

And absolutely there is room for those who have no interest in playing the money game. If you are a squatter, off the grid, living off poached game, wild forage and gifts of food, and are happy and healthy, awesome! I think that's success, too. The Man Who Quit Money is a good example of that. But for most of us...the above stuff is what I think.

[Formless Tao]

I dont think its because they have less... one of the main reasons is because the majority believes strongly in karma - this is coupled with the belief that if they adopt a greedy, materialistic attitude in this life, they will have to repay it in future lives.

 

They also believe that if they are not living in ideal conditions this life, as long as they do more good, make more offerings and prayers, then the gods & their ancestors will look kindly upon them and grant them a more favourable rebirth. Because of this, they tend to be generally quite contented with their 'now' conditions, knowing - and expecting - that what they do in this present existence in preparation for rebirth critically decides conditions in the next life. So they tend to hanker comparatively less than Westerners (generally speaking).

 

The above is true only up to the previous generation of Asians, and not applicable to a sector of Asians who do not hold to the concept of karma. The present generation have already been, to a large extent, greatly influenced by Western materialism and have adopted the carpe diem mantra.

 

This is from an Asian perspective.

I agree with you CT for Cambodia, but Indonesia and East Timor this does not ring true, regarding Karma...

Edited November 6, 2014 by Formless Tao

[Nikolai1]

I Am

 

 

But you need to have some level of "success", before you can be comfortable and secure enough to be able to feel content with that bowl of rice.

 

This statement can only apply to those who are seeking to derive happiness from the outside. Granted, it will probably make sense to most people. But to those who have found happiness on the inside, and by that I mean the spiritual joy, that is with them whatever they have or do, it makes no sense at all and is an entirely redundant statement.

 

To such people it will truly make no difference if they live in a mansion or a barrel - their happiness is secured whatever.

 

This inner ingredient can not be seen talked, about or measured. It plays virtually no role in modern happiness studies, who understand spirituality only in terms of things like community, meaning and friendship. Yet the person who has gained inner joy could be left alone on a mountain and suffer no deterioration in mood.

 

Here you give your own account of the good life:

 

 

A job you like, which pays the bills and allows you to save, and spend if you care to spend. "Gainful employment", they call it. As much of a social life as you want. If you're happy with no friends and have none, cool. But if you want an active social life, you have one. You have interests/hobbies, and whether you really excel at them or not, you enjoy them and take part in them.

 

By conventional standards it is sensible and wise, and recognises the folly of chasing material success alone. But still it takes little account of the spiritual joy that is the most necessary ingredient to happiness.

 

What makes the spiritual life so challenging is that very, very often we find ourselves losing interest in our work, our sports and hobbies, and very often our friends. One of the first fruits of dedicated practice is that we find ourselves resembling the 'lazy, slobby underachiever' in that we lose all motivation to continue being what had always satisfied us in the past.

 

Unfortuntely (or fortunately) for you, you are already showing all the signs of someone heading down this road. This is a very distinctive sentiment of the spiritual seeker:

 

 

It was an office job; boring, working with people nothing like me, who could be very petty and place way to much importance on silly little things. A lot of negativity, surrounding me every day. I sat around all day watching the clock. All I've got till I die is time, and I was wishing away 8 hours of my life a day, five days a week. So I quit.

 

Already there is a gap between you and a huge swathe of society. This gap can grow and grow, it can invade all your hobbies and pastimes and certainly including what you now call *spiritual'. Immediately prior to spiritual realisation you may found yourself in a place of utter alienation from everyone and everything around you. This is where thoughts like this can lead you...

 

And then the light comes, and you realise that there is a source of joy that requires nothing on the outside. Then you realise that all the conventional pleasures of life were never anything other than pale reflections of a happiness that was always within.

[C T]

I agree with you CT for Cambodia, but Indonesia and East Timor this does not ring true, regarding Karma...

Thats right, FT, Indonesia and East Timor are predominantly Islamic, aren't they, with many still very much

influenced by their ancestral paganistic or shamanistic roots. Maybe that has something to do with it as well.

[i am]

And then you realize that no, I won't be happy dirt broke, living day to day not knowing where I'll sleep, how I'll eat, how I receive treatment if I get sick.

 

I'm only where I'm at, so I can only speak from this place. I suppose if I had achieved immortality, I could live however, secure in the fact that even if I die in a year from cancer, I will live on spiritually.

 

But right now, I want a long life. I want a place to call my own and I want money in the bank. I want healthcare if I get sick, and I don't want to be forced into bankruptcy to receive that healthcare.

 

I am still mortal, and so I have worldly needs and concerns. I know from experience, that with where I'm at, I cannot be content and calm, meditate with a completely calm mind, walk in peace with an empty mind...when I don't have a job. When I know what I want out of material life, but am not quite sure how to get it, yet.

 

I too believe in the ideal that you're writing about. But it's not my reality.

 

So...hypothetically? Ideally? For the sake of conversation? Yeah, I believe that true success and happiness in life comes from inner contentment, and any old hobo could be completely content and happy.

 

I know a guy on this site, whose ideas I really value, who mentioned something about it being very important, in his opinion, to get your career, get success in life (I know, that's what we're trying to define!), and only when you've established yourself in your career and are secure, should you begin to get "serious" about cultivation.

 

Probably for this very reason. If you knew enough to pick a job you'd be happy with, did it for a couple decades and were "there", then, when you start getting lazy and not caring, you can kind of coast...But what does a 37 year old guy, who never cared about a career and so has just kind of gotten jobs that were better than the last one, but never real idea of he wanted to "do", and so never really being fulfilled by the job because it was just some job he took...and so now he really wants a good paying job which supports his lifestyle, but a huge part of him now doesn't care. Doesn't care about "success", money, stuff. It's hard to motivate to go to school or get training, to learn a bunch of tech stuff, to apply for some stupid job that wants you spout off about how great you are and your "accomplishments".

 

I used to think that any job that I didn't hate, and liked a bit and didn't disagree with the work being done, would be fine, as long as it payed my bills and more, and didn't interfere too much with my personal life. But that's what I had and wasn't happy. I was dividing my life. "I'm only working to support my lifestyle. Once work is over for the day I can get back to my life. Once it's the weekend I can do my own thing". So I was always living for evenings and weekends. Which meant I was spending more time not living. Even though it was a job that did good stuff, and I left work at work. As soon as I walked out the door, there was stress, no thinking about work later on. It's not enough, because 8 hours of the day I under someone else's control. My time and location was controlled by that job.

 

So I just have this idea of a lifestyle...and how do I get it with the least amount of work...what can I do that will allow me to set my own daily schedule, live where I want when I want, not deal with a commute, live on my own terms. Basically that seems like contract work, which can be done mostly remotely.

 

That or start playing the lotto

[i am]

Basically, my ideal life right now, is "the best of both worlds". One foot in modern society, one in my own spiritual existence.

 

I could quit it all and find some eco village or commune to join. But I still have a nagging thing about retirement and healthcare. Security blanket. Taking part in modern society, with my own little world off grid that's always there waiting for me. Maybe that will fade away. I don't know.

[Nikolai1]

Really interesting post which of course sounds very prudent, but...

Basically, my ideal life right now, is "the best of both worlds". One foot in modern society, one in my own spiritual existence.

 

This isn't possible, the two can't be held in stasis like that. One will grow at the expense of the other. It's just the way it goes.

 

If your career hasn't taken off its because you never saw anything worth devoting yourself to. Your interest in the spiritual life was almost certainly undermining you in modern society.

 

So which is it to be?

 

Commit yourself to the spiritual world and you will ultimately gain all the security that you ask for. The ultimate security that you feel when you know you, in essence, are not an individual vulnerable to ill-health and death. The security that gives you the balls to trust the universe to supply you with all that you need without anxiety-based insurance policies.

 

Or, give up on this. Turn away from everything that undermines you in the modern world, and create yourself material security while there is still chance. There is nothing wrong with this course. Most people follow it and even if its wrong, death will save you from feeling too much regret.

 

It's this shilly-shallying between the two that is the problem, as you will certainly find out before long.

[allinone]

if you don't start meditate seriously you won't come prodigy.

progress is slow at the beginning but it escalades later, if you don't start you will lose more time than you think.

 

edit: sorry of being off topic.

Edited November 6, 2014 by allinone

[BaguaKicksAss]

Basically, my ideal life right now, is "the best of both worlds". One foot in modern society, one in my own spiritual existence.

 

I could quit it all and find some eco village or commune to join. But I still have a nagging thing about retirement and healthcare. Security blanket. Taking part in modern society, with my own little world off grid that's always there waiting for me. Maybe that will fade away. I don't know.

 

I do both best I can. I work for myself, in a spiritual field creating supplies and jewelry. My job requires spiritual work . I have talked with others who do various health care jobs who see things in the same light, but have a more "mundane" job.

 

Health care, hmmmm, immigrate to Canada? Cuba? How old are you? If you are still young-ish, not like you couldn't spend 20-30 years doing what you love most, as long as you don't need a huge retirement fund... I still think that is crazy americans have to pay $200 per month for healthcare .

[Nikolai1]

I work for myself, in a spiritual field creating supplies and jewelry.

 

This is another fallacy to beware of - that there is such a thing as 'spiritual work'.

 

With the right inner attitude, any activity whatsover is spiritual activity. But, it just so happens that a person with inner peace loses the motivation to do certain jobs. The might, for example, find it hard to work in something like a bank because it seems so trivial and unimportant.

 

But this doesn't make banking unspiritual, not at all. It just attracts people who don't have the inner attitude that we call spiritual, and doesn't attract those who do.

[ThisLife]

.

Here's a pair of quotes on this train of thought that seem to compliment each other well. Sometimes I think that seeing how so many other people have contemplated the same ideas quite deeply, over thousands of years of man's history,... kind of adds a useful perspective. In our own wondering, we're part of a long, long lineage, (and sadly, the fact that we're still asking the same question two thousand years later, does seem to indicate that there really are no definite answers. Only personal opinions)

 

But that, too, can be a helpful realization :

 

*

*

 

(1) "The secret of happiness is not doing what one likes, but in liking what one does."

 

*

 

(2) "He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have."

 

Socrates

 

.

Edited November 6, 2014 by ThisLife

[BaguaKicksAss]

This is another fallacy to beware of - that there is such a thing as 'spiritual work'.

 

With the right inner attitude, any activity whatsover is spiritual activity. But, it just so happens that a person with inner peace loses the motivation to do certain jobs. The might, for example, find it hard to work in something like a bank because it seems so trivial and unimportant.

 

But this doesn't make banking unspiritual, not at all. It just attracts people who don't have the inner attitude that we call spiritual, and doesn't attract those who do.

 

I just mean, have to actually meditate, perform ritual, use energetics, and etc. to create each item.

 

Very good point about the more "mundane" jobs though . I used to use my old very mundane warehouse job to memorize mantras, correspondences and such, since the work didn't take much mental capacity...

[BaguaKicksAss]

I am curious if the last 2 posters would count working a minimum wage job for mcdonalds in their ideas?

[i am]

Let's be clear about certain things, then.

 

By the best of both worlds and one foot in modern society, I don't mean going to clubs and rubbing myself all over women and casual sex. I don't mean getting rich. I don't mean having a bunch of stuff. I don't mean impressing my neighbors.

 

I just the ability to hang out with friends, go to a restaurant now and then, go on vacations, etc.

 

Are you saying that dropping out of society is the only way to commit yourself to the spiritual life? That my idea of making just enough money to have the "modern society" things like insurance and retirement and some money in the bank, while living more or less off grid and doing all my spiritual practices, and living virtuously, isn't going to allow me to reach enlightenment?

 

I take the Taoist idea of balance more literally.

 

Are you living by the ideals you're talking about?

[i am]

I am curious if the last 2 posters would count working a minimum wage job for mcdonalds in their ideas?

 

Ideally, yes.

 

In reality? A person not happy with what he/she does and has, who is working for minimum wage at a fast food restaurant will not therefore never be happy with anything. They might be perfectly happy with something "better".

 

Sure, maybe an immortal would be happy with it.

 

The idea is valid. People are always saying "if I just had this, or made this much, I'd be happy!". And it's not true. But there is a point where it is true, for most people.

 

For example...I see, in more populated areas, the life that low income earners live. They're in apartment complexes in less desirable areas of town, driving cars that work less often than not, have to commute far to work, and struggle. Compared to low income people in smaller communities, who might be able to live in a rental house or nicer apartment, within walking distance to everything, able to get out and camp and hike, go to the farmers market. In one there are class divisions, and a lot of things against you. In the other, not so much.

 

Totally different life, with the same pay. Difference in location. Will the person living in the more populated area never be happy? Or will they be, if they just moved somewhere which was laid out in a way that made money matter much less? Some would, some wouldn't. But some definitely would.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Let's be clear about certain things, then.

 

By the best of both worlds and one foot in modern society, I don't mean going to clubs and rubbing myself all over women and casual sex. I don't mean getting rich. I don't mean having a bunch of stuff. I don't mean impressing my neighbors.

 

I just the ability to hang out with friends, go to a restaurant now and then, go on vacations, etc.

 

Are you saying that dropping out of society is the only way to commit yourself to the spiritual life? That my idea of making just enough money to have the "modern society" things like insurance and retirement and some money in the bank, while living more or less off grid and doing all my spiritual practices, and living virtuously, isn't going to allow me to reach enlightenment?

 

I take the Taoist idea of balance more literally.

 

Are you living by the ideals you're talking about?

 

I can see this point somewhat, not that I currently practice it, but it does make sense. I performed a 6 month retreat with no access to other people, nor leaving the house when anyone was about (just went hiking at night in the local park for exercise). This sort of seclusion was definitely needed for the particular spiritual working I was doing.

 

The reason for this is that our friends, and even complete strangers to some degree, and most definitely family, do try to keep us the same. They are pretty uncomfortable with us changing at all, even the ones who say otherwise.

 

Also, we use distractions, whether they be people, the internet or things, to keep us just a little bit (or a lot, depending) away from truly merging with whatever spiritual forces one prefers, or letting go of our perception of "self".

 

So I guess it would depend how deep one wishes to go.

 

Also setting aside half an hour per day for practice is far different than most of the day.

 

Personally, presently, I'm doing halfway on each, and preferring it .

[i am]

I can see that, definitely. But we do live in the world...I don't think avoiding it is the answer for anyone, except for short periods of time.

 

That was definitely directed toward Nikolai though, since he seems to have strong views on this.

[Ish]

The way I see it, If you want to live in society and support yourself, you have to have some kind of income.

 

Honestly, it's annoying, but i think you just gotta put in those 8 hours and learn to find some enjoyment out of it. I don't think even the most boring job has to be soul sucking though.

 

 

I guess one way to look at it is everything you find annoying/difficult about the 9-5 is a cultivation working on your character... why does xyz irritate me? can i rise above it?

 

 

 

Otherwise if you don't want to work the standard 9-5, got to find some alternative way to get some income. Maybe you have some creative stuff you can try marketing?

 

Its tough though... and going through all the rigmorale of getting jobs and working is really annoying for me personally, but i think it just has to be done.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Ish

[Formless Tao]

Thats right, FT, Indonesia and East Timor are predominantly Islamic, aren't they, with many still very much

influenced by their ancestral paganistic or shamanistic roots. Maybe that has something to do with it as well.

 

Yeah CT Indonesia majority Islamic, East Timor majority Catholic and as you say strong ancestoral and shamanistic roots