Western medicine - what doesn't it know about energy?

[thelerner]

I don't think a good answer to the question will appear based on finding 'energy' in the body through either practice. Rather the best way to see the difference is to look at how each modality treats patients with the same problem. What does Western medicine do, what does Eastern?

 

Then look at effectiveness and costs. Only then will find the answer you're looking for. And it'll differ with different maladies. Western medicine is great for trauma, but often not so good with long term chronic problems.

[Ya Mu]

And then there is the view that western medicine is also energy medicine; reactions to chemicals are energetic or at least the process of the chemical reaction is energetic in nature.

 

I think cross-training is the answer. For instance, in my clinical qigong certification program, required is college level Western Anatomy and Physiology training. And by the same token, as more and more western medical professionals are trained in the energy arts, I think eventually we will see clincal qigong as a stable norm in the hospitals. It is too powerful and effective to not be eventually included. Although this may not happen until western medicine politics (insurance companies, large corporations, and AMA dogma) crashes and burns.

World Medicine - recognition and use of all that works, utilized harmoniously - that is what is needed.

[Taomeow]

Vaccination, one of the business staples of modern Western medicine, was invented by a taoist nun in the 13th century, against smallpox. The emperor, having seen its effectiveness, ordered mass vaccinations for the whole population of China. Here's where TCM and Western medicine could have taken the same route -- medicine by decree, decided on by non-medics.

 

However, they did not. The nun passionately opposed mass vaccinations -- unlike our researchers who'd be only too happy if they managed to sell their invention to a big pharma company, and the latter, to the governments of the world. The route whereby you make megaprofits off medical interventions is just too irresistible to bypass. It was bypassed by TCM though, the nun managed to convince the emperor to cancel his edict. Epidemics of infectious disease follow cycles, she argued from the perspective of subtle physiology she understood so well, and this preventive measure is in the category of "strong poisons," a class of interventions in TCM resorted to only when there's real impending danger which outweighs the detrimental effects of applying health-undermining treatments, especially for prevention. If there isn't such danger because we're in the waning phase of an epidemic, this kind of drastic prevention will do more harm than good. (All our "conquests" over disease were accomplished in the waning phases of epidemics. Our medicine is one hundred years old. The cycle for smallpox is about three hundred years. It still remains to be seen if we've "conquered" anything at all with our methods of the past one hundred years.)

 

And yet a newborn of today gets over 30 different vaccines by age 2 if I remember correctly, and it doesn't stop there. "What is the definition of good drugs? Anything that, when injected into a rat, results in a publication," according to the head of one of the largest medical research centers in the US.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Taomeow

[Cookie Monster]

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Edited May 5, 2021 by Ocean Form

[SecretGrotto]

Thanks for all the great replies to a very open-ended question, that must've previously been touched on countless times before. I was at my wits' end debating with a staunch sceptic, which I don't normally do, but found frustrating my inability to express a complex collection of ideas and references that constitute my belief in Neidan.

 

I feel guilty that I am not able to make a scientifically convincing case/plea for TCM/Acupuncture/Neidan/Energy medicine, and I feel like when evidence appears 20/50 years from now that sceptics cannot ignore, that they will blame us for not having appealed to their greater sense of reason.

 

Granted, there are many scientists who are/would be convinced that there are plenty of phenomena not explained by "Western medicine", by looking at indicative scientific studies which have been performed thus far, of which there are many. I also understand that if Big Pharma cannot patent something, they can't make money from it, and they will lobby against it and for alternatives.

 

Yet, there are plenty of 'level-headed', scientifically-minded individuals who do not at all permit any view that supports the notion of qi. I know there are many, because whenever someone tries to champion such notions on public participation sites like Reddit, they receive a significant number of downvotes.

 

The bottom-line of the sceptic's concern is that there are no phenomena, accepted as valid by the larger scientific community, that cannot potentially be explained by what we already know about the body and it's processes. This standard does not admit any other stranger phenomena, and therein lies the problem, getting the sceptic to consider as possible the stranger phenomena to even begin to render alternative explanations in terms of energetics.

 

Blanket judgements cast TCM/Acupuncture/Neidan in the same light as religion and homeopathy, which have a much more pronounced opposition by the sceptics. Yet, the processes that were involved in producing the body of knowledge for each of these areas are very different, especially in terms of the quality of the scientific method followed.

 

I stand to be corrected, but I like to think that knowledge of energetic physiology (Acupuncture/Neidan) is the product of thousands of years of scientifically-minded researchers reaching consensus and refining the knowledge of a very intricate and detailed subject, using subjective measurements of feeling and sensing on an effectively very 'physical' level. As opposed to say religious researchers who record far more subjective experiences with wildly differing details, yet reaching consensus on only the most basic of facts like seeing the face of someone that looks like Jesus.

 

Should we cast the research methodologies of internal energy researchers and religious/spiritual researchers in the same light? Should we completely discount such a vast body of knowledge of energetic physiology, simply because science does not yet or perhaps ever will possess the instruments to confirm the subjective measurements of the Neidan researchers?

 

If the subjective measurements concur between dozens, perhaps hundreds of scientifically-minded researchers, in a process perfected over thousands of years, would we be at all surprised if mainstream science confirms their findings? Or would we say in retrospect that no convincing argument was made, or that the sceptics set shortsighted standards and disregarded outright the practice of restrained judgement and honest distinction between unrelated subjects such as energetic physiology and religion?

 

Luckily, I take heart that every-day individuals like Wim Hof, the Iceman, can consistently demonstrate to the scientific community that the body can achieve feats that cannot be properly explained by mainstream 'western' science, like keeping the internal organs close to normal body temperature despite sitting immersed in ice for more than an hour. Running a 5-hour marathon in -20 deg C weather with only shorts and sandals. Training dozens of other people to command control over their bodies and climbing Kilimanjaro with them only in shorts and sandals. Running a marathon in the Namib desert without drinking any water.

 

Sceptics would still be biased to think that all of these feats could be explained by science, but I hope fair-minded sceptics would at least consider these feats as an indication that the countless accounts of superhuman feats in all the traditions of yoga and taoism could perhaps be plausible.

 

Wim Hof has mastered Tummo and has allowed many scientific studies to be done on his abilities:

Video:

Video:

Video:

[Cookie Monster]

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Edited May 5, 2021 by Ocean Form

[Taomeow]

 

I feel guilty that I am not able to make a scientifically convincing case/plea for TCM/Acupuncture/Neidan/Energy medicine

 

Don't. The German surgeon who suggested to his colleagues that they ought to wash their hands before doing surgery or aiding a woman in labor was placed in a lunatic asylum -- for the crazy unscientific mysticism of his assertion that dirty hands might be transmitting... well, he didn't know the word germs... they weren't discovered yet... transmitting energies that cause inflammations and untimely, unnecessary deaths as the result of medical interventions. He insisted on washing his hands before sticking them into an open wound, and was harassed, institutionalized, and died in a lunatic asylum as the outcome. Surgeons did start washing and then disinfecting their hands though -- over two hundred years later.

 

Any system that has entrenched itself will give hell to anyone or anything who makes a peep against it, and all the "science" it holds sacred to support the status quo is ultimately equal -- it is put together just so as to support the status quo, anything that falls short is deemed "unscientific," end of story. The so-called skeptics are simply model conformists, they are not using their mind to investigate, they are using their indoctrination to stop such investigations dead in their tracks. And it is hard to argue with them precisely because the indoctrination is something countless trillions of dollars have been invested into over decades -- it's hard to take on a whole civilization, equipped with just your own mind, your own experience, and your own unprofessional "this is wrong" gut feeling. Prove a gut feeling?.. Prove that dirty hands infect open wounds, that light deprivation can cause depression, that eating nothing but white rice can cause beri-beri but failing to polish it prevents this, that scurvy does not kill sailors if they include a barrel of lemons with their food supplies on a long trip, that masturbation does not cause insanity, that opium is not the best remedy for colds in infants -- and on and on, the above took several hundred years to prove in every case, and I could give you a hundred more examples.

 

So, don't feel bad. You're up against a mountain of shit -- no need to feel obligated to shovel it all away in any one conversation. Just back away slowly, and go smell some aromatic salts (yes, doctors used to prescribe them to help with troublesome feelings... They still work... )

[Cookie Monster]

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Edited May 5, 2021 by Ocean Form

[doc benway]

Thanks for all the great replies to a very open-ended question, that must've previously been touched on countless times before. I was at my wits' end debating with a staunch sceptic, which I don't normally do, but found frustrating my inability to express a complex collection of ideas and references that constitute my belief in Neidan.

Two valuable points here - use this as impetus to study deeper and notice that you're frustration is a sign of your attachment to your identity and beliefs regarding Neidan. Not saying it's a bad thing but for a cultivator it is helpful to be aware of our beliefs and how we define ourselves.

 

 

I feel guilty that I am not able to make a scientifically convincing case/plea for TCM/Acupuncture/Neidan/Energy medicine, and I feel like when evidence appears 20/50 years from now that sceptics cannot ignore, that they will blame us for not having appealed to their greater sense of reason.

No need to feel guilty, no one has yet made a scientifically convincing case.

 

 

Granted, there are many scientists who are/would be convinced that there are plenty of phenomena not explained by "Western medicine", by looking at indicative scientific studies which have been performed thus far, of which there are many. I also understand that if Big Pharma cannot patent something, they can't make money from it, and they will lobby against it and for alternatives.

 

Yet, there are plenty of 'level-headed', scientifically-minded individuals who do not at all permit any view that supports the notion of qi. I know there are many, because whenever someone tries to champion such notions on public participation sites like Reddit, they receive a significant number of downvotes.

 

The bottom-line of the sceptic's concern is that there are no phenomena, accepted as valid by the larger scientific community, that cannot potentially be explained by what we already know about the body and it's processes. This standard does not admit any other stranger phenomena, and therein lies the problem, getting the sceptic to consider as possible the stranger phenomena to even begin to render alternative explanations in terms of energetics.

I think it's important to not dilute or compromise the scientific method. The method is extremely effective but only when applied in a pure fashion. As mentioned above, the big money players compromise it whenever possible to make $$. If we compromise it to try and give credibility to our esoteric practices, the method is rendered useless and we have done nothing to enhance our practices. All we have done is compromise our ethics and honesty to gain credibility - it's not worth it.

 

It's equally important for those of us who practice ancient traditions that have "proven" effective through our personal experiences to trust and honor those experiences and not dilute those through a loss of confidence, loss of trust, or uninformed modification of something we don't fully understand or have mastery over.

 

Just because the Qi paradigm has not yet been borne out by that method, does not mean that either should be abandoned or compromised. Certainly there is the political and economic influence in science (and in the Qi world - take one look at many of the jokers, opportunists, control freaks, and snake oil salesmen and women involved in the big Qigong and Chinese martial arts communities and organizations). Anywhere you find humans, you will find opportunism and politics. It's much more pervasive in the scientific community for exactly the reasons already mentioned - more opportunity for economic and political profit in that arena.

 

If the scientific community and public at large does not yet accept our esoteric practices, it is not helpful to punish ourselves with frustration and anger. Much better to continue to develop our skills and, if we have the inclination, perhaps work on applying the scientific method to observe and study those practices. I think it is critical, however, to apply the method fully, honestly, and uncompromisingly and accept what results we see (or not).

 

 

Blanket judgements cast TCM/Acupuncture/Neidan in the same light as religion and homeopathy, which have a much more pronounced opposition by the sceptics. Yet, the processes that were involved in producing the body of knowledge for each of these areas are very different, especially in terms of the quality of the scientific method followed.

 

I stand to be corrected, but I like to think that knowledge of energetic physiology (Acupuncture/Neidan) is the product of thousands of years of scientifically-minded researchers reaching consensus and refining the knowledge of a very intricate and detailed subject, using subjective measurements of feeling and sensing on an effectively very 'physical' level. As opposed to say religious researchers who record far more subjective experiences with wildly differing details, yet reaching consensus on only the most basic of facts like seeing the face of someone that looks like Jesus.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the religious side. Religious experience is no more subjective than energetic experience. Don't try to elevate the energetic by criticizing the religious. The Bönpos and Buddhists have, arguably, applied "scientifically minded" approaches to the realm of the emotion, psychology, spirituality, and religious.

 

 

Should we cast the research methodologies of internal energy researchers and religious/spiritual researchers in the same light? Should we completely discount such a vast body of knowledge of energetic physiology, simply because science does not yet or perhaps ever will possess the instruments to confirm the subjective measurements of the Neidan researchers?

Yes - subjective experience should be either respected and trusted or not. I think it is arbitrary and gratuitous to pick and choose because of our personal belief systems.

No, we shouldn't discount anything - we should give it the attention we choose.

 

If the subjective measurements concur between dozens, perhaps hundreds of scientifically-minded researchers, in a process perfected over thousands of years, would we be at all surprised if mainstream science confirms their findings? Or would we say in retrospect that no convincing argument was made, or that the sceptics set shortsighted standards and disregarded outright the practice of restrained judgement and honest distinction between unrelated subjects such as energetic physiology and religion?

Let the skeptics be skeptics. The only thing necessary to convince them are a few, well-designed and convincing studies that adhere to the methods of science without compromise.

 

 

Luckily, I take heart that every-day individuals like Wim Hof, the Iceman, can consistently demonstrate to the scientific community that the body can achieve feats that cannot be properly explained by mainstream 'western' science, like keeping the internal organs close to normal body temperature despite sitting immersed in ice for more than an hour. Running a 5-hour marathon in -20 deg C weather with only shorts and sandals. Training dozens of other people to command control over their bodies and climbing Kilimanjaro with them only in shorts and sandals. Running a marathon in the Namib desert without drinking any water.

 

Sceptics would still be biased to think that all of these feats could be explained by science, but I hope fair-minded sceptics would at least consider these feats as an indication that the countless accounts of superhuman feats in all the traditions of yoga and taoism could perhaps be plausible.

 

Wim Hof has mastered Tummo and has allowed many scientific studies to be done on his abilities:

Video:

Video:

Video:

Skeptics will always be out there.

You can't convince some folks that there's value in the esoteric practices.

You can't convince others that there's value in the present scientific community.

We all live wrapped up in our stories unless we're willing to look at things with an open heart and mind.

Peace

[Spotless]

Great advances in both disciplines are taking place. A great deal of handed down information in Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) is being brought together, collated and rediscovered.

 

In Western Medicine many countries have moved to a single payer system and with this, new ideas (often Eastern based) are coming into play because they are simply and undeniably effective and cheap. When insurance companies are moved aside more room is added for experimentation and obviously a lot of money is saved for actual services instead of profit.

 

Physicians are still in the relative dark ages primarily because the approach takes one there: we whip what would be a lifetime of apprenticeship under a master in the east into a very few years of learning "single minded problem solving". The drug companies want to know the "active element" and the doctors want their drug suppliers to help them continue to use those "active element" most effectively. The doctors are completely overwhelmed by their lack of a wholistic approach but forge through with ego and studies and almost no interaction with their patients.

 

In one study of Western Medicine the average patient spoke approximately 6 seconds per visit with the doctor.

 

Regarding technology the West is doing well but far far behind where it would be if it were incorporating TCM.

 

Overall both groups are moving glacially toward one another but the waters are mixing and approaches are integrating.

 

In the west a leading cause of death is in fact going to the hospital - in countries adopting single payer systems the number of hospital visits shinks while the number of home visits soars. In-home visits are frequently done by those practicing comforting and healing modalities that are not Western.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Spotless

[eye_of_the_storm]

48'000 odd people in the USA die from infectious diseases caught in hospitals per year... (total number is 250'000++ including malpractice and other) ... met with general silence...

http://www.naturalnews.com/028441_superbugs_infections.html

It makes the E b - la thing seem...

Edited November 10, 2014 by eye_of_the_storm

[doc benway]

In one study of Western Medicine the average patient spoke approximately 6 seconds per visit with the doctor.

Can you share this reference? I'd love to see it.

The most recent I read was that docs in a hospital in Germany worked ~ 11 hours per day, spent nearly 3 hours documenting per day, and spent about an hour and a half communicating with patients and family. The average was 4 minutes per patient and 17 seconds per family member.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1186%2F1472-6963-10-94#page-1

 

 

48'000 odd people in the USA die from infectious diseases caught in hospitals per year... (total number is 250'000++ including malpractice and other) ... met with general silence...

Silence? Not in the medical community. Maybe in the public sector - see my response below. Iatrogenic and nosocomial morbidity and mortality is well known, constantly monitored and addressed, and preyed upon by opportunistic malpractice attorneys and profiteers. One problem is that fear of errors has led to attempts at bureaucratizing and legislating the problems away and this has cause an enormously burdensome medical record system and "safeguard" measures that leave doctors, nurses, and other health care staff very little time to actually take care of patients. The system is so complex to navigate and inconsistent, it has been demonstrated that it actually leads to MORE errors.

 

Many of the measures put in place are ridiculous and ill-conceived as many are dreamed up by bean counters and non-clinical folks who don't understand what is really needed. Furthermore, at every step someone is trying to profit on the new software or fancy needle caps or whatever. In addition, these "safeguard" generally assume that health care professionals are idiots. While this may be true in some cases, it doesn't make sense to have rigorous requirements for people to receive medical training, spend a decade and hundreds of thousands of dollars to train them, and then not let them think for themselves.

 

The system is an ineffective, exploited juggernaut and there are many good people (and many bad as well) trying to work within its constraints.

 

 

 

 

http://www.naturalnews.com/028441_superbugs_infections.html

 

It makes the E b - la thing seem...

 

 

Ebola is a distraction.

As is ISIS and nearly everything else we see in the media.

If we can be kept focused on things like this, we won't pay attention to things like iatrogenic morbidity and the fact that soon nearly 30% of ALL Americans will have diabetes and that the federal and regional governments are in complete collusion with industry at all levels to profit from our forced sugar addiction. That's only one issue but it will (and has) injure and kill many more people than things like Ebola and ISIS.

 

The other piece in the puzzle is personal responsibility. The average American is overweight, has very poor dietary intake, rarely drinks pure water, many smoke tobacco and use drugs recreationally, drink too much alcohol, spends countless hours frying the brain and energetic body with TV and electronic media, doesn't sleep well, doesn't exercise enough, lives in nearly constant stress, anger, and desire, etc... etc... They live in an increasingly toxic environment but won't stop driving everywhere in favor of walking, bicycle, or public transportation. Rather than change their lifestyle, they find it much more appealing to go to a doctor and get a pill or a surgery rather than face the real problems. They don't want to be told to eat right, sleep well, give up the cell phone and car, exercise more, pray, breath, and stop living a life of overworking, stress, and consumerism. Folks are continually poisoning themselves physically, emotionally, spiritually, energetically, and then we act surprised [edit - and blame the health care system] when they don't have good outcomes with Western medicine. And everyone in the system is equally oblivious. Like Taomeow said, it's a mountain of shit.

Edited November 10, 2014 by steve

[Taomeow]

Six seconds per patient? That's luxury. That's when both patients and family members are docile and comfortably clueless. Try getting six seconds of the doctors attention to discuss something YOU want to discuss, rather than what the doctor wants to dispense.

 

I was that family member who wanted to get 6 seconds of the doctor's attention when another family member was in the hospital with a surgery-or-not life-threatening emergency choice, and I spent the night reading research papers related to the problem in the doctor's specialty (something doctors are not given any time or incentives to do -- so they do not keep themselves current with professional publications, and use whatever is "standard of care" decades after the standard was, e.g., proven harmful or inefficient by researchers. Who are far from perfect in their own right, but that's a different story).

 

By morning -- eureka! -- I knew what happened and why -- an obscure paper in a medical journal explained how a prior medical intervention caused the current emergency complication. There was a demonstrated irrefutable link between the two, which the doctor was not aware of. Accordingly the strategy was now much easier to choose, and it became clear that surgery won't be necessary.

 

I managed to apprehend the specialist in the hall as he was doing rounds, and I had just enough time to say, "here's this German study, and it says... " I never finished. The doctor started screaming hysterically. "I haven't slept three nights in a row. I have twenty-six more patients to see. I have three kids of my own whom I never see. I have no time to discuss German bullshit or any other bullshit. If family members do not cooperate, we call security." And off he ran.

 

The sick family member, who heard the exchange from his room, through the open door, refused to deal with any medical professionals for the next three years, despite a life-and-death illness.

[doc benway]

(something doctors are not given any time or incentives to do -- so they do not keep themselves current with professional publications, and use whatever is "standard of care" decades after the standard was, e.g., proven harmful or inefficient by researchers. Who are far from perfect in their own right, but that's a different story).

 

Actually, most specialty societies have requirements for quite a bit of continuing medical education including periodic written exams to maintain certification.

Most docs keep up with the one or two major journals in their specialty.

Some are extremely well read, in multiple languages, others not so much.

And it's very important to read the studies critically and in context.

Data is easily manipulated, easily misunderstood, and rarely captures the big picture.

As has been mentioned in this thread, humans are a holistic organism and our attempts to chop that up in to digestible pieces necessarily leads to inaccuracies.

One negative aspect of research is that insurance companies and governments are taking outcomes data and basically forcing docs into certain practice patterns. While outcomes data predict averages, people are not averages, they are unique individuals and need to be treated as such. This is where the art of medicine comes in.

[liminal_luke]

Taomeow,

 

Not to get off-topic, but there was recently a thread here about whether or not IQ matters. Your story about how you researched your family members medical condition yourself and gained clarity about the proper course of action... that story proves to me that, at least some of the time, it does.

 

Liminal

[Taomeow]

Actually, most specialty societies have requirements for quite a bit of continuing medical education including periodic written exams to maintain certification.

Most docs keep up with the one or two major journals in their specialty.

Yes, but they spend an average of 30 minutes a year familiarizing themselves with publications in those journals, at least that's the number I seem to recall, I've seen the article citing it a long time ago so I may be wrong by 15 minutes either way.

 

I'm not saying people are born to become bad doctors. I'm saying the system is set up to produce doctors who have to stretch themselves very thin if they want to be good, and are really more comfortably embraced by the system if they're bad -- bad for the patients, bad for themselves, good for the system. Would you agree? I've several MD friends with experience of working in the old country (free medicine) and here. They turned into drastically different people over the years. Not that we had great medicine, it was a different kind of bad. But it didn't do to doctors what it does to many of them here, in my personal experience.

 

And I do agree with your take on the value (or lack thereof) of "research," and then some. But, like I said, it's a separate story.

[Taomeow]

Taomeow,

 

Not to get off-topic, but there was recently a thread here about whether or not IQ matters. Your story about how you researched your family members medical condition yourself and gained clarity about the proper course of action... that story proves to me that, at least some of the time, it does.

 

Liminal

 

Thank you for noticing, Liminal. I have always maintained that intellect is what you have to have if you're cornered, it's an evolutionary trick if you want to survive (and/or thrive) under adverse conditions. If nothing is going on that demands of you to get smart or bust, you just relax... My ideal is the taoist sage -- "has a strong mind but does not make it labor." I make mine labor when I have to... but not when I don't.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Taomeow

[Brian]

I would comment that TTB, in my estimation, is significantly over-represented with genuinely brilliant folks (and they are NOT the ones who brag about their IQ scores) -- TaoMeow being high that list, in my opinion.

 

To keep this post on-topic, I would add that physicians (as with most people) tend to get touchy when they encounter someone who is better versed on some particular sub-topic of relevance than is the presumed expert. It requires a nuanced hand to bring important information to light in a unintimidating way (and sometimes it is just impossible so you have to be blunt and let the chips fall where they may).

[Taomeow]

Thank you, Brian -- after you, if there's a list.

 

So, to continue on topic. Yes, you're right, specialists like to despise lay folks who "think they know something," and god forbid the latter DO know something -- in this case substitute "hate with a passion" for "despise." After the story I told above, about a "typical" doctor, fast forward three years. We meet an MD, accidentally (god sent him, everybody says whom I tell the circumstances). He is a big cheese at a large local hospital, also a researcher who pioneered some of the complex procedures that have been included into the "standard of care"since then, and he looks like Robert Redford in his prime to boot. And he is actually thrilled when I tell him, well, for such and such reasons we did this and that (completely unorthodox "alternative" stuff) and he goes, yeah, good choices, there's so much quackery in the alternative field, how did you manage to sort out through this convoluted picture to get to the few precious things that really work?

 

I feel I'm in a dream. I explain to him that I've invested thousands of hours into research, orthodox, alternative, everything under the sun -- out of necessity, not for to prove anything to anybody. He goes, OK, have you come across this and that... and in no time we're talking shop like two professionals, which in fact we are, not in terms of experience and methods of learning -- I never had his, but then, he never had mine -- and he is really interested and I see he respects the work I've done, and I see he did his own homework, for the first tine I'm talking to an MD who never misses a beat when I mention an obscure study from his field -- whoa, he's read them all! And then we talk candidly, and he goes, about some parts of the standard of care, "yeah, that's a scam... and this, a band-aid to cover up the picture..." and so on. Despite the grim circumstances that brought me to that conversation, I'm in fucking Heaven!

 

And the sick family member who's been avoiding doctors because he had zero trust and less respect for what he'd seen that far, goes, OK, now I think I can trust this guy. Praise the lord if he's the one responsible for this miracle.... or whatever powers. And of course the treatment worked close to the top of its capabilities. Placebo effect?...

[Brian]

I have also encountered a few extremely bright and knowledgeable physicians who don't have a God-complex (yes, folks, they do exist!) and have not only noticed the extraordinary results they get but also their candor off-the-record about the limitations of their art. Personally, I think the key is energetic -- whether they actively practice something or were just born with a native proclivity for "alignment," I don't know. I am reminded of an anecdote Ya Mu shares about the head of acupuncture at the hospital in China were he studied who said something to the effect of, "Our acupuncturists who practice qigong daily have much higher success rates than those who don't."

 

As an aside, I have met some very devout "clergy" (for lack of a better word) for several faiths who exhibit the same energy and candor. They are an extreme minority but they are out there. Again, I think it is energetic.

[eye_of_the_storm]

@ Steve, that is what I was implying

Why isn't that making 24/7 world news...

...mind control / distraction, what have you

Too many have put their lives in the hands of ...

//

I like Master Chunyi Lin's idea of having a healer in every family (I have only looked into the beginning stages of SFQ)

I have spent a good amount of time looking into health though. Dis-ease is disharmony with the natural world.

People believe dis-ease is an inevitable part of nature (or it just appears without cause)... untrue. The natural state is health/ life/ vitality

People curse Nature for their own mistakes/ filling the temple with rubbish etc.

If people sustained themselves with the correct elements the subtle arts would build upon that... rather than being used to cure negligence.

I don't remember who it was (a practitioner of subtle energies) said they don't do energy healing for a similar reason.

I guess similar is in western medicine, you aren't going to give a new liver to an alcoholic etc/ they aren't going to be the priority ... as they will just repeat the cycle, nothing learned etc.

In Bama, China people live to 100+ years, no doctors, no hospitals... just living close to nature.

Edited November 10, 2014 by eye_of_the_storm

[Taomeow]

 

 

I like Master Chunyi Lin's idea of having a healer in every family

 

 

Yes!! And the relationship must be personal... like in the good old days.

 

I had that in my life, in the good old days... A regular MD she was, a friend of my mom's. I knew her since I was a child, and later she was the one I turned to when my own kids were little. She worked at a hospital for rare and severe infectious disease (never got as much as a cold herself) where they would bring all the horror cases from the whole region. So, she wasn't a family practitioner or a pediatrician, but she was a healer -- and as Brian says, it was energetic. When I was little, she would come whenever I was sick and I would start feeling better the second she walked into the room. Same thing with my kids. Her every word and every touch would bring relief. Besides the physical side of it, she had an amazing effect on people's emotions -- calming and balancing, like an instant meditation. (It was actually very funny to observe the way she and my mom conversed. She would start saying something, my mom would interrupt and go on a tangent for fifteen minutes, her friend would sit quietly listening and then, once my mom was done talking, resume whatever she was saying when she got interrupted, as though the interruption never happened. My mom would later complain that her friend never listens! On the contrary -- she was listening... for what matters. Ignoring whatever she thought didn't matter was part of the skill of really hearing what matters, as I realized much later.)

 

Also, she was a minimalist -- the typical situation went like this: my kids get the flu, the pediatrician prescribes medications, I call "auntie" (she was not an aunt, but "appointed" herself one), here's what the pediatrician says I should use, what do you think? She'd ask about the symptoms and then go, "don't use this, don't use this, don't use this... this one, yes, but only with fever higher than such and such numbers." She never once said that whatever was prescribed was not enough -- in her opinion, it was almost always too much.

 

She worked till the age of 87. I don't think she ever lost a patient.

[doc benway]

Yes, but they spend an average of 30 minutes a year familiarizing themselves with publications in those journals, at least that's the number I seem to recall, I've seen the article citing it a long time ago so I may be wrong by 15 minutes either way.

The docs I know probably spend at least a few hours a week reading and studying to try and stay current - probably more.

That's in addition to reading about issues as unusual things come up in the clinic.

On average they take at least one challenging self-assessment exam per year and attend one or two professional conferences which are usually quite good.

I can't quote any articles on that - just observation.

 

 

I'm not saying people are born to become bad doctors. I'm saying the system is set up to produce doctors who have to stretch themselves very thin if they want to be good, and are really more comfortably embraced by the system if they're bad -- bad for the patients, bad for themselves, good for the system. Would you agree?

Yes - I think that is accurate.

 

I also think that the majority are trying hard to be good doctors as they understand the job while at the same time trying hard to live up to their, and their family's (progressively more unrealistic) expectations of what sort of living and lifestyle they "should" have. It's a relatively small minority who are "bad" - by that I mean malicious, opportunistic, and so forth, and of course there are good and bad qualities in all of us to varying degree.

 

The younger generations seem to be more idealistic and altruistic and have expectations more in line with current reality.

 

The other issue is whether even the good doctors are practicing "bad" medicine.

I personally believe that the "pharmaceuticalization" of health care is a big failure and ill-advised.

In part it is in response to our refusal to embrace and accept the most natural event we will ever experience in our lives - our death. In part it is due to our unrealistic expectations regarding illness and injury recovery and morbidity. In part it is related to the toxification of our lives and docs taking the easy path of writing a prescription because they don't have the time or expertise to try and effect change at a more fundamental level (and of course, most people aren't interested in that kind of change). And of course, it all culminates in a predatory response to these fears in our capitalistic and consumer driven culture.

 

 

I've several MD friends with experience of working in the old country (free medicine) and here. They turned into drastically different people over the years. Not that we had great medicine, it was a different kind of bad. But it didn't do to doctors what it does to many of them here, in my personal experience.

Me too - I have a few friends who have lived through that same experience in the former USSR republics as well as elsewhere.

It takes awareness and enormous energy and commitment to overcome the professional emotional and psychological hazards of the job as it is here, and by this I refer to how it can change and corrupt a person. But it can be done.

 

 

And I do agree with your take on the value (or lack thereof) of "research," and then some. But, like I said, it's a separate story.

[thelerner]

 

In Bama, China people live to 100+ years, no doctors, no hospitals... just living close to nature.

 

I don't know. You may be seeing it over optimistically. This article from The Guardian -http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/30/chinese-village-secret-long-life-bama-guangxi is mostly positive. Bama is being advertised as longevity Disneyland village, but the truth is "..In 2005 there were 17 or 18 people aged over 100, but these days there are just two, he thinks – not seven, as the village claims."

 

also "..As the area has grown wealthier and less isolated, it has also grown less healthy. Bama is a microcosm of China: its burst of development made its shift from diseases of poverty to those of affluence even more pronounced."The centenarians eat braised pork every day. Since they have got richer, their diet has been changing," Yang said. "Last time I was there, I told them problems such as high blood sugar and high blood pressure were appearing in this village, and that if they were not careful, it would lead to death. They did not listen to me and despised [my advice]. They said they had just started to get rich, and we were trying to stop them."

 

So my thinking is, like Okinawa it's a great climate, hard work, clean air and good water and traditional diet does wonders. Perhaps a little bit of gifted genetics helps too. But its no magic place where everyone lives to be 100+, in 2013 there were 2 centennials there.

Edited November 11, 2014 by thelerner

[eye_of_the_storm]

Well it is only further proof I think...

In the documentary I saw due to "poverty" they were only able to afford plant foods grown in the village.

No meat, dairy...or even salt. Salt was a treat and difficult to get...so basically nil too.

It is not that Bama was magical (other than the purity of the environment)... it was due to their isolation and "poverty" they had little choice other than a purely plant based diet.

The lady they interviewed I recall was around 102 and her sister 110 odd... minds still sharp, walking, hearing etc

They mentioned no illness experienced in 100+ years and many would transition peacefully in their sleep.

I can see how the attention and increase in "wealth" has or is becoming their downfall though.

Simplicity is virtue

I am puzzled why people pursue suffering... haha

Seems stomachs have overtaken minds.

Edited November 11, 2014 by eye_of_the_storm