Western medicine - what doesn't it know about energy?

[SecretGrotto]

What verifiable energetic manifestations in the body cannot be explained by Western medicine, that is typically explained and treated by TCM?

 

Bad examples: cold feet are caused by an imbalance of yin-yang energies; dark circles under the eyes are caused by kidney energy deficiencies; full moon causes the enhanced feeling of jing in the body.

 

These bad examples would be shot down by a staunch skeptic because none of it is or can be scientifically verified.

 

 

In general, what examples would you give to indicate to a skeptic that Western medicine is ignorant of very real but subtle energetic workings in the body, examples that cannot be explained alternatively as due to peculiarities in blood flow, electrolyte balance, nutrient deficiencies etc.?

[Michael Sternbach]

Western medicine is doing quite well in explaining what is happening on the physical level. It is however pretty much limited to this level, like most modern Western science. TCM and other alternative approaches are complementing the picture by their understanding of the energetic side which acts not in contradiction but in accordance with the cellular processes etc. as understood in Western medicine. People who are followers of the "physical only" sect tend to neglect the psychological and etheric connections, however. It's hard to provide evidence as long as they're not ready to step outside their box.

[Brian]

Using only Euclidean geometry, demonstrate that there are areas of mathematics which can be explained better by something other than Euclidean geometry.

 

(As an aside, Newton used only Euclidean geometry to validate Kepler and to simultaneously model gravity...)

[Flolfolil]

...

Edited March 5, 2015 by Flolfolil

[ChiDragon]

ATP.......!!!

[exorcist_1699]

Don't forget that Taoist qi theory is a trinity of jing, qi and Shen , and they are, in fact, inseparable ; which , also implies that mind and body is mixed . Western study of humans is divided into different disciplines: medicine, psychology , theology , philosophy ...owing to its incapacity of discovering qi , the medium which links all spiritual and physical stuff together ; in this sense, the understanding of the essence of Taoism is destined to be very difficult for it accepts no trivial grasp of IT..

 

Even in modern physics, the only discipline which claims to study the basic energy and force of this universe, leaves no room for anything spiritual for scientists view intelligence as the outcome of matter's billions years of evolution, not anything co-exists and co-develops with matter, time and space , let alone understanding Taoist view of it as something hidden in emptiness...

Edited November 5, 2014 by exorcist_1699

[dust]

My sister had eczema-like skin problems since childhood. For over 20 years, Western doctors couldn't find what was wrong, and continually prescribed things like steroids and other drugs that didn't work.

 

She tried acupuncture, and has been problem-free ever since.

 

I have no idea about the energy involved here, though. I don't know if I believe in these energies as described by TCM -- it sounds like hocus pocus. I only know that this acupuncturist did his thing and it worked.

Edited November 5, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Michael Sternbach]

Don't forget that Taoist qi theory is a trinity of jing, qi and Shen , and they are, in fact, inseparable ; which , also implies that mind and body is mixed . Western study of humans is divided into different disciplines: medicine, psychology , theology , philosophy ...owing to its incapacity of discovering qi , the medium which links all spiritual and physical stuff together ; in this sense, the understanding of the essence of Taoism is destined to be very difficult for it accepts no trivial grasp of IT..

 

Even in modern physics, the only discipline which claims to study the basic energy and force of this universe, leaves no room for anything spiritual for scientists view intelligence as the outcome of matter's billions years of evolution, not anything co-exists and co-develops with matter, time and space , let alone understanding Taoist view of it as something hidden in emptiness...

 

There are some physicists who are thinking about how mind and spirit fit into the picture, but overall, you are on the mark.

[doc benway]

What verifiable energetic manifestations in the body cannot be explained by Western medicine, that is typically explained and treated by TCM?

From the Western medical perspective, none.

From the TCM perspective, everything.

They are two distinct paradigms looking at the same reality from very different perspectives.

The key IMO is to embrace both, put them in their proper place, and be open and educated enough to know what that is as best we can.

 

 

In general, what examples would you give to indicate to a skeptic that Western medicine is ignorant of very real but subtle energetic workings in the body, examples that cannot be explained alternatively as due to peculiarities in blood flow, electrolyte balance, nutrient deficiencies etc.?

Trying to convince a skeptic is like trying to clean a dirty window with grease. Good luck.

People generally see the world through the filter that was created by their environment since birth and daily reified by their internal narration. They need to be open to be willing to accept something new into their world view.

 

 

from an entirely down to earth perspective, part of it is that "western" doctors are largely unaware of and do not treat somatization

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatization

 

basically, your emotions effect your health and doctors would rather take some pointless tests that always come up negative and send you on your way even when you are clearly suffering beyond the point of it being "just in your head"

This is a very touchy and challenging area for Western doctors for a number of reasons.

 

Rant on -

 

The health care system continues to cut back on reimbursements while the cost of living and doing business continue to rise. Ridiculous demands by the government, society, and insurance industry regarding documentation, practice requirements, liability issues, 'digitization' and sterilization of what should be a very human, organic, and personal interaction, and much more... This all leads to frustration and desperation. Some respond to this by quitting, some become very opportunistic, some become very cold and calloused, others wake up and find a way to cut through all of this bullshit and try to connect on a human level despite the obstacles.

 

in general, doctors have little training in psychology and psychiatry and no training in alternative health paradigms so they are frequently out of their element, ignorant, or simply unaware of what to do to understand and help when there is no clearcut anatomical or physiological explanation. The "pointless tests" referred to above are only pointless when found to be normal in retrospect. When something is found that is treatable (or not), they are not pointless. Add to this the enormous pressure to see a high volume of patients due to reasons mentioned in the first paragraph, and you have a recipe for failure --> not enough time, expertise, energy, or incentive to try and work with things outside of their limited sphere of understanding and interest. That said, it's important to acknowledge that for every person failed by the system there are those who benefit from the system - the same can be said for the TCM paradigm.

 

Another contributing factor is the patient. People generally do not go to a Western MD to be told that their problem is psychosomatic, related to Qi imbalance, spirit possession, kundalini, emotional blockages, laziness, poor diet, lack of exercise, improper posture and breathing, pollution, societal conditioning, ignorance, attachment, and so forth. In fact, they get quite irate and indignant when they cannot be provided with a scientific, anatomical and physiological explanation and solution which guarantees resolution of the problem with no effort on their part, no risk, and little to no out of pocket cost. A relatively small percentage of people walking into an MD's office are interested in alternative paradigms and open to the uncomfortable truth.

 

None of us can work effectively in a paradigm we do not understand. It is definitely valuable, however, if we can be aware of the various available paradigms and be open enough to embrace them in our various practices. One problem is that non-scientific paradigms generally do not satisfy the rigorous scientific requirements for justification of their inclusion in Western MD practices. In Western health care, outcomes are more and more emphasized (to the detriment of the freedom of the doctor-patient relationship, IMO). This requirement for justification based on peer-reviewed scientific publications puts alternative paradigms further and further away from the Western doctors' reach even when they are open enough to recommend them.

 

Rant off -

 

Even in modern physics, the only discipline which claims to study the basic energy and force of this universe, leaves no room for anything spiritual for scientists view intelligence as the outcome of matter's billions years of evolution, not anything co-exists and co-develops with matter, time and space , let alone understanding Taoist view of it as something hidden in emptiness...

I disagree.

 

There are plenty of folks incorporating radical ideas, new concepts, spiritual concepts, and so forth.

There are plenty of spiritual people actively working in physics and the other sciences.

 

The problem is that all of this must be subjected to the scrutiny and rigor of the scientific method since that is the foundation of physics. What holds up to such scrutiny is embraced and changes our views --> quantum theory is a good example.

What does not hold up is abandoned.

If one criticizes the scientific method for not being more open or inclusive of spirituality, one simply needs to imagine giving the reins of the scientific community to the "Intelligent Design" cadre - good luck with that!

 

The system is certainly not perfect and some of the basic tenets upon which it is based can and should be regularly questioned. Also, there is no question that many scientists would benefit from a bit more open-mindedness and creativity, wouldn't we all?

On the other hand, the consistency and reproducibility of the method is well established as the foundation for technological advancement (for better and worse).

[BaguaKicksAss]

Well the problem is, you can't patent and sell energy.

[Ish]

What verifiable energetic manifestations in the body cannot be explained by Western medicine, that is typically explained and treated by TCM?

 

Bad examples: cold feet are caused by an imbalance of yin-yang energies; dark circles under the eyes are caused by kidney energy deficiencies; full moon causes the enhanced feeling of jing in the body.

 

These bad examples would be shot down by a staunch skeptic because none of it is or can be scientifically verified.

 

 

In general, what examples would you give to indicate to a skeptic that Western medicine is ignorant of very real but subtle energetic workings in the body, examples that cannot be explained alternatively as due to peculiarities in blood flow, electrolyte balance, nutrient deficiencies etc.?

 

Perhaps not what you're asking for, but:

 

Placebo effect? How do they explain that.

[Brian]

I think steve is spot-on above.

 

I also think my geometry analogy was perhaps a bit too obscure.

[dust]

I also think my geometry analogy was perhaps a bit too obscure.

 

I didn't understand a word but thought I might look intelligent if I "liked" it

[Brian]

LMAO

 

Yeah, didn't work for me, either.

[Michael Sternbach]

The problem is that all of this must be subjected to the scrutiny and rigor of the scientific method since that is the foundation of physics. What holds up to such scrutiny is embraced and changes our views --> quantum theory is a good example.

What does not hold up is abandoned.

If one criticizes the scientific method for not being more open or inclusive of spirituality, one simply needs to imagine giving the reins of the scientific community to the "Intelligent Design" cadre - good luck with that!

 

I whole-heartedly agree with the statements and general thrust of your post except that I don't think things are so black and white in all of science, especially in modern physics (but in medicine and other areas, too). There are lots of untested theories in vogue - and there are some good people trying to build a bridge to the metaphysical outlook. And no, they're not Creationists.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

I think steve is spot-on above.

 

I also think my geometry analogy was perhaps a bit too obscure.

 

I think you were spot-on, too. There are areas in modern physics that call for non-Euclidean geometries. And it's some of those geometries which at once provide a link to the non-physical or etheric realm. As some anthroposophically oriented mathematicians and physicists demonstrate, in particular.

 

Now give me your 'likes' if you want to look intelligent.

[doc benway]

Using only Euclidean geometry, demonstrate that there are areas of mathematics which can be explained better by something other than Euclidean geometry.

 

(As an aside, Newton used only Euclidean geometry to validate Kepler and to simultaneously model gravity...)

I think yours was an excellent post and saying what I did but much more succinctly - I think I understood it but I didn't quite get the significance of the Newton part...

 

 

I whole-heartedly agree with the statements and general thrust of your post except that I don't think things are so black and white in all of science, especially in modern physics (but in medicine and other areas, too). There are lots of untested theories in vogue - and there are some good people trying to build a bridge to the metaphysical outlook. And no, they're not Creationists.

I agree with you.

I can sound a bit opinionated at times, especially when I'm feeling passionate about something, but I'm actually pretty flexible.

[runner11]

You can't convince a skeptic, because even if they did a "scientific study," they would just draw the conclusions that they want. For example, if you showed that running a marathon depletes qi, they would study and see the effects of running a marathon, and conclude that it was caused by the blood glucose and electrolytes being depleted, not something esoteric like qi. It doesn't matter how many cause and effects are studied; qi itself cannot be physically seen under a microscope, so therefore it doesn't exist according to western medicine. The same goes for jing, shen, meridians, etc.

 

Even something like acupuncture points, which have been proven to western medicine to have significance, have been explained to be stimulating different nerves of the body. The question is, if you're going to study this form of medicine that is several thousand years old, and acknowledge that it does offer benefits, why stop short of accepting it for face value. Why do we have to say, "Yea it works but not because of these strange energies that we can't observe or measure. It's simply manipulating nerve endings, and can help with reducing pain."

 

It's not like the ancient Chinese had to resort to esoteric explanations because they lacked understanding of the human body. They had a very thorough understanding of the physical body. They just weren't constrained to having to literally see something to accept that it exists. I know I'm probably on the fringe here, but I think that western medicine has gone so far down the wrong path and has become so corrupted with pharmaceutical money, that I literally don't trust it for anything, except for maybe a few useful technologies like MRIs and Xrays.

[Brian]

...I didn't quite get the significance of the Newton part...

<snip>

That was truly just an aside. In the early 1500s, Copernicus did some very careful measurements and recognized the planets seemed to be moving in a heliocentric rather than geocentric pattern but couldn't explain it. In the late 1500s, Galileo took a crack at an explanation but in hindsight missed by a mile. He did, however, do much to lend legitimacy to the idea of heliocentrism. Tycho Brahe (an extraordinarily interesting character in his own right!) spent much of his short life in the late 1500s gathering much more, and much more accurate, data but also couldn't explain the behavior. Kepler, in the early 1500s, took Tycho's data and identified three very significant patterns:

1) The orbit of the planets follow ellipses with the Sun at on focus.

2) A straight line between Sun and planet sweeps out an equal area during equal time intervals, regardless of how "out of round" the orbit is.

3) The square of a planet's orbital period (the time it takes to go around the Sun) is proportional to the cube of the planet's semi-major axis (basically, proportional to its maximum distance from the Sun).

 

Still, no real explanation for the mechanics behind this very strange behavior which was being measured.

 

Enter Newton...

 

In the mid- to late-1600s, Newton tackled the problem. He invented calculus and developed our current non-relativistic (read: "everyday") understanding of gravity along the way but what he showed was that the behavior of the planets in their orbits around the Sun can be modeled, including satisfying Kepler's "laws," if gravity acts along the line from planet to Sun AND if the force of gravity is proportional to the inverse of the square of the distance from planet to Sun (1/r²). Modeled gravity on Earth AND modeled the motions of the heavenly bodies in one fell swoop. To explain it to his peers, he HAD to explain it all with nothing other than Euclidian geometry -- no algebra, no calculus, no numerical methods, etc. Simply brilliant!

[mike 134]

I've read a lot of anecdotes about how people have gone through one doctor after another seeking a cure for their condition, and finally found relief with acupuncture / herbs / energy treatments / whatever.

 

From this they immediately conclude that such and such system of medicine must be superior to western medicine.

 

Now I ask of you, when the shit hits the fan, when you are suffering from a true emergency, like a heart attack, stroke, or traumatic injury, who are you going to see ? A trained doctor of medicine who can perform invasive interventions and administer the latest medications ? Or some quack who waves his hands around and pretends that all is good ??

[liminal_luke]

Now I ask of you, when the shit hits the fan, when you are suffering from a true emergency, like a heart attack, stroke, or traumatic injury, who are you going to see ? A trained doctor of medicine who can perform invasive interventions and administer the latest medications ? Or some quack who waves his hands around and pretends that all is good ??

 

If a person has an acute emergency such as a heart attack and goes to someone who "waves his hands around" they might die. If a person has a chronic condition and goes to a "trained doctor of medicine" they might die.

 

Liminal

[Creation]

Using only Euclidean geometry, demonstrate that there are areas of mathematics which can be explained better by something other than Euclidean geometry.

This is an intersteing and relevant point.

 

Many mathematicians rejected the idea of non-Euclidean geometry because it was thought that the parallel postulate could be proved, even though no proof had yet been found, which would imply non-Euclidean geometry would entail a logical contradiction. A major step toward the acceptance of non-Euclidean geometry was the realization that models for non-Euclidean geometry existed within Euclidean geometry. For example the great circles on (the surface of) a sphere form a non-Euclidean geometry. Therefore non-Euclidean geometry must be as logically consistent as Euclidean geometry, and non-Euclidean geometry is an equally valid perspective on can take on geometry.

 

The relevant point is that maybe it will turn out that that energy phenomenon will be brought within the fold of biophysics, and then it will seen that the energy perspective does not contradict the scientific worldview, but is as valid a way of viewing the body as the biochemical model so common in medicine today. In fact, for the coarsest level of energy, the one that is dealt with in TCM, this is exactly what I expect will happen.

[Brian]

Bingo!

[dust]

I've read a lot of anecdotes about how people have gone through one doctor after another seeking a cure for their condition, and finally found relief with acupuncture / herbs / energy treatments / whatever.

 

From this they immediately conclude that such and such system of medicine must be superior to western medicine.

 

Now I ask of you, when the shit hits the fan, when you are suffering from a true emergency, like a heart attack, stroke, or traumatic injury, who are you going to see ? A trained doctor of medicine who can perform invasive interventions and administer the latest medications ? Or some quack who waves his hands around and pretends that all is good ??

 

Assuming you're referring to my post:

 

-- I didn't state that I believe in energy treatment

-- I didn't state that TCM is superior to Western

-- I didn't state that the acupuncturist "waves his hands around" or "pretends" it's all good if it's not

-- I didn't state that, if I or someone I knew was having a heart attack, I would suggest such a hand-waving treatment

 

Now you mention it, though,

 

-- I don't know if I believe in energy as referred to in TCM

-- I don't know if I believe that either is "superior"

-- I don't know what the acupuncturist did, only that it worked, beyond reasonable doubt

-- If I was having a heart attack, I would trust the local doctors not an inch more than my own sister (now an acupuncture student herself), who recently diagnosed my grandmother's heart issue a week before her local doctors would even admit anything was wrong.

 

In my experience, Western doctors and medicine are good for some things. Some. I know people who've benefited greatly from surgery; I take ibuprofen if a headache won't go away. And acupuncturists certainly aren't infallible: studies show that, also beyond reasonable doubt, I believe. So, there.

Edited November 7, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Taomeow]

What verifiable energetic manifestations in the body cannot be explained by Western medicine, that is typically explained and treated by TCM?

 

Bad examples: cold feet are caused by an imbalance of yin-yang energies; dark circles under the eyes are caused by kidney energy deficiencies; full moon causes the enhanced feeling of jing in the body.

 

These bad examples would be shot down by a staunch skeptic because none of it is or can be scientifically verified.

 

 

In general, what examples would you give to indicate to a skeptic that Western medicine is ignorant of very real but subtle energetic workings in the body, examples that cannot be explained alternatively as due to peculiarities in blood flow, electrolyte balance, nutrient deficiencies etc.?

 

Western medicine is a business. (Cancer alone is the second biggest money-maker in the US, after war.) It is a set of strategies for making megaprofits off illness. You are comparing apples and oranges.

 

A better comparison could be drawn between Chinese medicine and biophysics. Biophysics is something that is not used in Western medicine (and not studied in med schools), but it is the closest Western science to TCM. What doesn't biophysics know about subtle energies that TCM does? Applications. The theory is there, but it's not being used to diagnose, treat, or cure any illness.