Chuang Tzu chapter 15

[dust]

We'll start with the Legge translation, and perhaps in the next couple of posts people could post any other versions that they're fond of. I'd like to look at all parts in one thread, but we'll see how that goes.

 

_____________________________________________

 

《刻意 - Ingrained Ideas》

 

1

 

刻意尚行，離世異俗，高論怨誹，為亢而已矣，此山谷之士，非世之人，枯槁赴淵者之所好也。語仁義忠信，恭儉推讓，為修而已矣，此平世之士，教誨之人，遊居 學者之所好也。語大功，立大名，禮君臣，正上下，為治而已矣，此朝廷之士，尊主強國之人，致功并兼者之所好也。就藪澤，處閒曠，釣魚閒處，無為而已矣，此 江海之士，避世之人，閒暇者之所好也。吹呴呼吸，吐故納新，熊經鳥申，為壽而已矣，此道引之士，養形之人，彭祖壽考者之所好也。

 

Ingrained ideas and a high estimate of their own conduct; leaving the world, and pursuing uncommon ways; talking loftily and in resentful disparagement of others - all this is simply symptomatic of arrogance. This is what scholars who betake themselves to the hills and valleys, who are always blaming the world, and who stand aloof like withered trees, or throw themselves into deep pools, are fond of. Discoursing of benevolence, righteousness, loyalty, and good faith; being humble and frugal, self-forgetful and courteous - all this is simply symptomatic of (self-)cultivation. This is what scholars who wish to tranquillise the world, teachers and instructors, men who pursue their studies at home and abroad, are fond of. Discoursing of their great merit and making a great name for themselves; insisting on the ceremonies between ruler and minister; and rectifying the relations between high and low - all this shows their one object to be the promotion of government. This is what officers of the court, men who honour their lord and would strengthen the state and who would do their utmost to incorporate other states with their own, are fond of. Resorting to marshes and lakes; dwelling in solitary places; occupying themselves with angling and living at ease - all this shows their one object to be to do nothing. This is what gentlemen of the rivers and seas, men who avoid the society of the world and desire to live at leisure, are fond of. Blowing and breathing with open mouth; inhaling and exhaling the breath; expelling the old breath and taking in new; passing their time like the (dormant) bear, and stretching and twisting (the neck) like a bird - all this simply shows the desire for longevity. This is what the scholars who manipulate their breath, and the men who nourish the body and wish to live as long as Peng Zu are fond of.

 

若夫不刻意而高，無仁義而修，無功名而治，無江海而閒，不道引而壽，無不忘也，無不有也，澹然無極而眾美從之，此天地之道，聖人之德也。

 

As to those who have a lofty character without any ingrained ideas; who pursue the path of self-cultivation without benevolence and righteousness; who succeed in government without great services or fame; who enjoy their ease without resorting to the rivers and seas; who attain to longevity without the management (of the breath); who forget all things and yet possess all things; whose placidity is unlimited, while all things to be valued attend them: such men pursue the way of heaven and earth, and display the characteristics of the sages.

Edited November 6, 2014 by dustybeijing

[dust]

2

 

故曰：夫恬惔寂寞，虛無無為，此天地之平而道德之質也。

 

Hence it is said, 'Placidity, indifference, silence, quietude, absolute vacancy, and non-action: these are the qualities which maintain the level of heaven and earth and are the substance of the Dao and its characteristics.'

 

故曰：聖人休，休焉則平易矣，平易則恬惔矣。平易恬惔，則憂患不能入，邪氣不能襲，故其德全而神不虧。

 

In accordance with this it is said, 'The sage is entirely restful, and so (his mind) is evenly balanced and at ease. This even balance and ease appears in his placidity and indifference. In this state of even balance and ease, of placidity and indifference, anxieties and evils do not find access to him, no depraving influence can take him by surprise; his virtue is complete, and his spirit continues unimpaired.'

 

故曰：聖人之生也天行，其死也物化；靜而與陰同德，動而與陽同波；不為福先，不為禍始；感而後應，迫而後動，不得已而後起。去知與故，循天之理，故無天 災，無物累，無人非，無鬼責。其生若浮，其死若休；不思慮，不豫謀；光矣而不耀，信矣而不期；其寢不夢，其覺無憂；其神純粹，其魂不罷。虛無恬惔，乃合天 德。

 

Therefore it is (also) said, 'The life of the sage is (like) the action of Heaven; and his death is the transformation common to (all) things. In his stillness his virtue is the same as that of the Yin, and in movement his diffusiveness is like that of the Yang. He does not take the initiative in producing either happiness or calamity. He responds to the influence acting on him, and moves as he feels the pressure. He rises to act only when he is obliged to do so. He discards wisdom and the memories of the past; he follows the lines of his Heaven (-given nature); and therefore he suffers no calamity from Heaven, no involvement from things, no blame from men, and no reproof from the spirits of the dead. His life seems to float along; his death seems to be a resting. He does not indulge any anxious doubts; he does not lay plans beforehand. His light is without display; his good faith is without previous arrangement. His sleep is untroubled by dreams; his waking is followed by no sorrows. His spirit is guileless and pure; his soul is not subject to weariness. Vacant and without self-assertion, placid and indifferent, he agrees with the virtue of Heaven.'

 

故曰：悲樂者，德之邪；喜怒者，道之過；好惡者，德之失。故心不憂樂，德之至也；一而不變，靜之至也；無所於忤，虛之至也；不與物交，惔之至也；無所於逆，粹之至也。

 

Therefore it is said (further), 'Sadness and pleasure show a depraving element in the virtue (of those who feel them); joy and anger show some error in their course; love and hatred show a failure of their virtue. Hence for the mind to be free from sorrow and pleasure is the perfection of virtue; to be of one mind that does not change is the perfection of quietude; to be conscious of no opposition is the perfection of vacancy; to have no intercourse with (external) things is the perfection of indifference; and to have no rebellious dissatisfactions is the perfection of purity.'

 

故曰：形勞而不休則弊，精用而不已則勞，勞則竭。水之性，不雜則清，莫動則平，鬱閉而不流，亦不能清，天德之象也。

 

Therefore it is said (still further), 'If the body be toiled, and does not rest, it becomes worn out; if the spirit be used without cessation, it becomes toiled; and when toiled, it becomes exhausted. It is the nature of water, when free from admixture, to be clear, and, when not agitated, to be level; while if obstructed and not allowed to flow, it cannot preserve its clearness - being an image of the virtue of Heaven.'

 

故曰：純粹而不雜，靜一而不變，惔而無為，動而以天行，此養神之道也。

 

Hence it is said (once again), 'To be guileless and pure, and free from all admixture; to be still and uniform, without undergoing any change; to be indifferent and do nothing; to move and yet to act like Heaven: this is the way to nourish the spirit.

[dust]

3

 

夫有干、越之劍者，柙而藏之，不敢用也，寶之至也。精神四達並流，無所不極，上際於天，下蟠於地，化育萬物，不可為象，其名為同帝。純素之道，惟神是守， 守而勿失，與神為一，一之精通，合於天倫。野語有之曰：「眾人重利，廉士重名，賢人尚志，聖人貴精。」故素也者，謂其無所與雜也；純也者，謂其不虧其神 也。能體純素，謂之真人。

 

Now he who possesses a sword made at Gan-Yue preserves it carefully in a box, and does not dare to use it - it is considered the perfection of valuable swords. But the human spirit goes forth in all directions, flowing on without limit, reaching to heaven above, and wreathing round the earth beneath. It transforms and nourishes all things, and cannot be represented by any form. Its name is "the Divinity (in man)." It is only the path of pure simplicity which guards and preserves the Spirit. When this path is preserved and not lost, it becomes one with the Spirit; and in this ethereal amalgamation, it acts in harmony with the orderly operation of Heaven.' There is the vulgar saying, 'The multitude of men consider gain to be the most important thing; pure scholars, fame; those who are wise and able value their ambition; the sage prizes essential purity.' Therefore simplicity is the denomination of that in which there is no admixture; purity of that in which the spirit is not impaired. It is he who can embody simplicity and purity whom we call the True Man.

[dust]

Burton Watson

 

CONSTRAINED IN WILL

 

1

 

TO BE CONSTRAINED IN WILL, lofty in action, aloof from the world, apart from its customs, elevated in discourse, sullen and critical, indignation his whole concern - such is the life favored by the scholar in his mountain valley, the man who condemns the world, the worn and haggard one who means to end it all with a plunge into the deep. To discourse on benevolence, righteousness, loyalty, and good faith, to be courteous, temperate, modest, and deferential, moral training his whole concern - such is the life favored by the scholar who seeks to bring the world to order, the man who teaches and instructs, who at home and abroad lives for learning. To talk of great accomplishments, win a great name, define the etiquette of ruler and subject, regulate the position of superior and inferior, the ordering of the state his only concern - such is the life favored by the scholar of court and council, the man who would honor his sovereign and strengthen his country, the bringer of accomplishment, the annexer of territory. To repair to the thickets and ponds, living idly in the wilderness, angling for fish in solitary places, inaction his only concern - such is the life favored by the scholar of the rivers and seas, the man who withdraws from the world, the unhurried idler. To pant, to puff, to hail, to sip, to spit out the old breath and draw in the new, practicing bear-hangings and bird-stretchings, longevity his only concern - such is the life favored by the scholar who practices Induction, the man who nourishes his body, who hopes to live to be as old as P'eng-tsu.

 

But to attain loftiness without constraining the will; to achieve moral training without benevolence and righteousness, good order without accomplishments and fame, leisure without rivers and seas, long life without Induction; to lose everything and yet possess everything, at ease in the illimitable, where all good things come to attend - this is the Way of Heaven and earth, the Virtue of the sage. So it is said, Limpidity, silence, emptiness, inaction - these are the level of Heaven and earth, the substance of the Way and its Virtue. So it is said, The sage rests; with rest comes peaceful ease, with peaceful ease comes limpidity, and where there is ease and limpidity, care and worry cannot get at him, noxious airs cannot assault him. Therefore his Virtue is complete and his spirit unimpaired.

 

2

 

So it is said, With the sage, his life is the working of Heaven, his death the transformation of things. In stillness, he and the yin share a single Virtue; in motion, he and the yang share a single flow. He is not the bearer of good fortune, nor the initiator of bad fortune. Roused by something outside himself, only then does he respond; pressed, only then does he move; finding he has no choice, only then does he rise up. He discards knowledge and purpose and follows along with the reasonableness of Heaven. Therefore he incurs no disaster from Heaven, no entanglement from things, no opposition from man, no blame from the spirits. His life is a floating, his death a rest. He does not ponder or scheme, does not plot for the future. A man of light, he does not shine; of good faith, he keeps no promises. He sleeps without dreaming, wakes without worry. His spirit is pure and clean, his soul never wearied. In emptiness, nonbeing, and limpidity, he joins with the Virtue of Heaven.

 

So it is said, Grief and happiness are perversions of Virtue; joy and anger are transgressions of the Way; love and hate are offenses against Virtue. When the mind is without care or joy, this is the height of Virtue. When it is unified and unchanging, this is the height of stillness. When it grates against nothing, this is the height of emptiness. When it has no commerce with things, this is the height of limpidity. When it rebels against nothing, this is the height of purity.

 

So it is said, If the body is made to labor and take no rest, it will wear out; if the spiritual essence is taxed without cessation, it will grow weary, and weariness will bring exhaustion. It is the nature of water that if it is not mixed with other things, it will be clear, and if nothing stirs it, it will be level. But if it is dammed and hemmed in and not allowed to flow, then, too, it will cease to be clear. As such, it is a symbol of Heavenly Virtue. So it is said, To be pure, clean, and mixed with nothing; still, unified, and unchanging; limpid and inactive; moving with the workings of Heaven - this is the way to care for the spirit.

 

3

 

The man who owns a sword from Kan or Yueh lays it in a box and stores it away, not daring to use it, for to him it is the greatest of treasures. Pure spirit reaches in the four directions, flows now this way, now that - there is no place it does not extend to. Above, it brushes Heaven; below, it coils on the earth. It transforms and nurses the ten thousand things, but no one can make out its form. Its name is called One-with-Heaven. The way to purity and whiteness is to guard the spirit, this alone; guard it and never lose it, and you will become one with spirit, one with its pure essence, which communicates and mingles with the Heavenly Order.2 The common saying has it, "The ordinary man prizes gain, the man of integrity prizes name, the worthy man honors ambition, the sage values spiritual essence." Whiteness means there is nothing mixed in; purity means the spirit is never impaired. He who can embody purity and whiteness may be called the True Man.

[Marblehead]

Okay. So we should reduce our desires and our ego and rather live a more natural life, flowing with the changes.

 

What else was said?

Edited November 6, 2014 by Marblehead

[dust]

I think it's more than that, here. It all seems odd to me. I wonder who wrote it? Not ZZ, I think.

 

 

 

In the first paragraph, he's not condemning people, but.. he's not impressed by the people he's describing.

 

就藪澤，處閒曠，釣魚閒處，無為而已矣

Resorting to marshes and lakes; dwelling in solitary places; angling and living at ease - just doing nothing.

 

Doing nothing -- wu wei. But not as a good thing, here.

 

 

 

He's also well aware of, and not entirely impressed by, the practices of early qigong.

 

吹呴呼吸，吐故納新，熊經鳥申，為壽而已矣，此道引之士，養形之人，彭祖壽考者之所好也

Breathing in and out, renewing breath (...) Wei life, these Daoyin gentlemen, men nourishing their body, considering the life of Peng Zu to be the best

 

Certainly seems to be a shot taken at those who self-cultivate with breathing exercises. Not that they (we!) are wrong, but that doing that isn't as good as what he suggests next.

 

If Wei is taken as it is in other areas, it might be said that people are forcing life by practicing these things?

 

 

 

So.. if we aren't even supposed to even retire to the marshes and live like a hermit doing some breathing exercises, if that's not good enough... what are we supposed to do?

 

夫恬惔寂寞，虛無無為，此天地之平而道德之質也。

'Placidity, indifference, silence, quietude, nothingness & wu wei: these are the qualities which maintain the level of heaven and earth and are the substance of the Dao and its characteristics.

Nothing. Literally nothing, is what we're supposed to do. No caring, no moving, no talking, no thinking. Is this meditation?

 

 

 

Is this the ZZ of the Inner Chapters?

 

(P.S. note that in the quotes here I've edited some of Legge's words to simplify/fit better with how I read it)

Edited November 6, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

I think it's more than that, here. It all seems odd to me. I wonder who wrote it? Not ZZ, I think.

I wanted to speak to this separately.

 

It is pretty well established the Chuang Tzu wrote only the first 7 Chapters. Likely his disciples wrote the Outer Chapters and the rest are miscellaneous collections.

 

But, in general, I think it can be said that the Outer Chapters (8 - 22) are supposed to be pretty much in synch with Chuang Tzu's philosophy.

[Marblehead]

Okay. Now to the rest:

 

In the first paragraph, he's not condemning people, but.. he's not impressed by the people he's describing.

He is basically saying it is a waste of their life. They should be doing things with other people.

 

Doing nothing -- wu wei. But not as a good thing, here.

No, I doubt "wu wei" (doing nothing) was a valid concept for Chuang Tzu.

 

He's also well aware of, and not entirely impressed by, the practices of early qigong.

Remember that he was an Anarchist. Ceremonies and rituals did not fit into his life.

 

Certainly seems to be a shot taken at those who self-cultivate with breathing exercises. Not that they (we!) are wrong, but that doing that isn't as good as what he suggests next.

Again, better to be watering the flowers and breathing naturally.

 

If Wei is taken as it is in other areas, it might be said that people are forcing life by practicing these things?

Yes, he was against any kind of "forcing" life.

 

So.. if we aren't even supposed to even retire to the marshes and live like a hermit doing some breathing exercises, if that's not good enough... what are we supposed to do?

We are supposed to live! Travel to the next village and talk with them, learn their customs, be helpful if the situation presents itself but never force ourself upon them. Share the wisdom we have gained through the years.

 

Nothing. Literally nothing, is what we're supposed to do. No caring, no moving, no talking, no thinking. Is this meditation?

No. I think we are to do nothing that is not natural. We should not be amassing many ceremonies and rituals. We should be living spontaneously; never knowing what we will be doing next. That might even include doing nothing.

[Taoist Texts]

 

Nothing. Literally nothing, is what we're supposed to do. No caring, no moving, no talking, no thinking. Is this meditation?

 

 

 

Is this the ZZ of the Inner Chapters?

sure its him. and whats wrong with doing nothing?

[dust]

Yes.. I should've made it clear that I'm aware that he's not supposed to have written the Outer Chapters.

 

I meant more, "Whose philosophy is this?" -- because ZZ, from the Inner Chapters, doesn't seem like the kind of guy who actually sat around doing nothing his whole life.

 

 

He is basically saying it is a waste of their life. They should be doing things with other people.

 

No, I doubt "wu wei" (doing nothing) was a valid concept for Chuang Tzu.

 

Remember that he was an Anarchist. Ceremonies and rituals did not fit into his life.

 

Again, better to be watering the flowers and breathing naturally.

 

Yes, he was against any kind of "forcing" life.

 

We are supposed to live! Travel to the next village and talk with them, learn their customs, be helpful if the situation presents itself but never force ourself upon them. Share the wisdom we have gained through the years.

 

Agreed on most if not all points.

 

 

No. I think we are to do nothing that is not natural. We should not be amassing many ceremonies and rituals. We should be living spontaneously; never knowing what we will be doing next. That might even include doing nothing.

 

But the paragraph there remains --

 

夫恬惔寂寞，虛無無為，此天地之平而道德之質也。

'Placidity, indifference, silence, quietude, nothingness & wu wei: these are the balance of heaven & earth and substance of Dao & De.

This doesn't sound natural, though. This sounds like forced nothing.

[dust]

sure its him. and whats wrong with doing nothing?

 

Nothing!

 

This chapter has just been a bit confusing for me, I'm afraid.

 

Though I'm all for non-interference, spontaneity, and generally being easy and doing nothing if I don't need to, parts of this chapter seem to be hinting at something else. Whether it's ZZ or a disciple, either way... it doesn't all sound like ZZ philosophy.

[Marblehead]

 

But the paragraph there remains --

'Placidity, indifference, silence, quietude, nothingness & wu wei: these are the balance of heaven & earth and substance of Dao & De

This doesn't sound natural, though. This sounds like forced nothing.

Yep. It says that. Obviously I do not agree with it. I doubt it is the way Chuang Tzu lived.

 

I agree, it doesn't sound natural. Forcing one's self to do nothing when there is so much that can be done.

[dust]

Obviously I do not agree with it. I doubt it is the way Chuang Tzu lived.

 

I agree, it doesn't sound natural. Forcing one's self to do nothing when there is so much that can be done.

 

Well..I'm glad to think that I wasn't entirely misreading/misunderstanding things. I don't know if others will agree though...

 

 

 

So it is said, If the body is made to labor and take no rest, it will wear out; if the spiritual essence is taxed without cessation, it will grow weary, and weariness will bring exhaustion. It is the nature of water that if it is not mixed with other things, it will be clear, and if nothing stirs it, it will be level. But if it is dammed and hemmed in and not allowed to flow, then, too, it will cease to be clear. As such, it is a symbol of Heavenly Virtue. So it is said, To be pure, clean, and mixed with nothing; still, unified, and unchanging; limpid and inactive; moving with the workings of Heaven - this is the way to care for the spirit.

 

Don't overtax the body, don't overtax the spirit -- OK

But what's all this water stuff about? Could someone explain, please?

[Marblehead]

I don't know if others will agree though...

It doesn't matter. Hehehe.

 

Don't overtax the body, don't overtax the spirit -- OK

But what's all this water stuff about? Could someone explain, please?

Yeah, don't over-do things.

 

Ah!, the water. The giver of all life (as we know it).

 

Water flows according to its natural characteristics. And for water, always downward. On the one hand, yes, we should be like water and flow (live) according to our natural characteristics. That is the similarity between us and water. On the other hand though, we don't want to always go downward, do we? Sometimes we like to go up. That is the difference between us and water.

[Taoist Texts]

But what's all this water stuff about? Could someone explain, please?

水之性，不雜則清，莫動則平，鬱閉而不流，亦不能清，天德之象也。

 

 

the idea is that every person is endowed with 天德 but becouse it is intangible ZZ uses water as analogy to explain how to develop this 天德.

[dust]

OK. And I understand the water analogy as it applies in the Laozi (e.g. ch.8, 15), but..

 

How can something be both?

 

水之性，不雜則清，莫動則平，鬱閉而不流，亦不能清，天德之象也

 

It is the nature of water that if it is not mixed with other things it will be clear, and if nothing stirs it it will be level. But if it is dammed and hemmed in and not allowed to flow, it will cease to be clear, the symbol of Heavenly Virtue.

 

Both unmixed, clear, level, and allowed to flow (so it doesn't become stagnant). How can something flow and not mix?

 

 

純粹而不雜，靜一而不變，惔而無為，動而以天行，此養神之道也

 

To be pure, clean, and mixed with nothing; still and unchanging; simple and effortless; moving with the workings of Heaven - this is the Way to care for the spirit.

 

Still and unchanging? Surely ZZ is all about change?

And if we're not dammed or hemmed in, we're allowed to flow, we're constantly in a state of change, no?

 

 

 

To get linguistic for a moment.... I've changed the translation a little above (grey).

Apart from "limpid and inactive" sounding horrible, I think 惔 means simple, and I don't think wuwei should mean "inactive" per se.

[ChiDragon]

水之性，不雜則清，莫動則平，鬱閉而不流，亦不能清，天德之象也。

水之性，不雜則清，
This is the characteristic of water. If it's not murky, then it's clear.

莫動則平，鬱閉而不流，亦不能清.
If it is not moving then it is still. If it is dammed and hemmed then it is not flowing. Also, it cannot be cleared.

天德之象也。
This is said to be a phenomenon of nature.

[ChiDragon]

純粹而不雜，靜一而不變，惔而無為，動而以天行，此養神之道也

純粹而不雜，靜一而不變
It's pure but not murky, still but not changing

惔而無為，動而以天行，
Anxious but being calm(wu wei), move with nature,

此養神之道也
This was said to be the principle of cultivation of the soul.

Edited November 7, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Taoist Texts]

OK. And I understand the water analogy as it applies in the Laozi (e.g. ch.8, 15), but..

 

How can something be both?

 

 

Both unmixed, clear, level, and allowed to flow (so it doesn't become stagnant). How can something flow and not mix?

 

水之性，不雜則清，莫動則平，鬱閉而不流，亦不能清，天德之象也。

 

the idea is that your Heavenly virtue is like a stream of water in the nature. Unless somebody or something will put (mix) some dirt in it - its gonna stay clean; unless this stream is disturbed - its gonna stay peaceful and level; and if this stream is blocked then it will become green with aglae (not clear). So all you need to do with your viirtue is not to dirty it and not to force it. Basically do nothing with it;)

[dust]

Got it. I think. Nicely explained.

[tamba]

WHER CAN I DOWNLOAD A GOOD TRANSLATION OF THE zz

 

THKS

[Marblehead]

http://terebess.hu/english/lexikon/c.html